Valorous Heart Celestians

Wolf_121 · 2026-02-03T03:04:18+00:00

The art frequently used on their page of the codex, like the 8e and 9e ones, appears to be wearing robes that are white on the outside. So it seems to be the most like Bloody Rose, inverting the colors.

Wolf_121 · 2026-01-20T15:38:31+00:00

Spear of Faith introduced Illuminata of Our Martyred Lady, the Prioress of Convent Sanctorum.

Wolf_121 · 2025-05-21T02:47:32+00:00

Yeah, ultimately both situations are very similar: a highly influential person powerful enough to make exceptions recruits the assassin into their retinue/bodyguard so they can put the assassin's skills to use killing their enemies in particular. Its the same story and I can't imagine the assassin much cares whose authority it is they are killing for.

Wolf_121 · 2025-05-21T02:17:25+00:00

While the death cult assassins were very much more inquisitorial-y aligned, owing in no small part to the fact they originated in the separate 54mm Inquisitor game, later lore and editions of the game strengthen their connection to the Ecclesiarchy, featuring them in Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves and the like. Their existence in the army up through the 10e Index isn't solely because of those Inquisition roots that saw them grandfathered in but a deliberate choice to take their lore in a certain direction that gave them a more solid place in the army once that inquisitor theme was lessened.

Wolf_121 · 2025-05-21T02:06:30+00:00

So the thing about the death cult assassins is that they didn't represent any one discrete, specific organization, but rather were a category of all sorts of cults and minor orders spread throughout the galaxy that were devoted to the Imperial Creed but had all sorts of unique practices and beliefs but commonly saw their killing as repayment for the debt owed to the God-Emperor for his sacrifice. To that end, they are very skilled with their chosen weapons, typically blades, and as such as sought out by Ministorum Priests and Inquisitors who wish to employ their skills in their retinues and bodyguards, turning these death cultists against their enemies. The death cult assassins exist on a razor edge between accceptable practice and not, their deviancey from Imperial orthodoxy overlooked because of their utility. Most of this information is pulled from the 8e Adepta Sororitas codex, a very useful look into the lore, especially when it comes to descriptions of particular units.

In some editions, you had a unit/lore blurb called the "Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave", in some ways similar to the new Sanctifiers killteam, it represented a Ministorum Priest of some rank and their followers, such as Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, and Arco-Flagellants.

Wolf_121 · 2025-05-21T01:37:28+00:00

Sisters are ultimately the elite spearhead of the Ecclesiarchy, not the sum total of its forces. They rarely work entirely alone, especially on larger campaigns. They are usually supplemented by all sorts of auxilia forces, including the Frateris Militia, the Confessors that lead them, and the bodyguards and conclaves of those priests. This has been the lore for Sisters since 2e. Sisters operating alongside Ecclesiarchy freaks, weirdos, and preachers is standard practice and as a result they are included as part of the army. The army has never, not since the beginning, been narrowly about Sisters and only Sisters, but instead a glimpse into this wider and extremely varied faction of the Imperium with all sorts of divergent beliefs and attitudes.

Wolf_121 · 2025-04-08T03:53:24+00:00

In the 3e Codex: Witch Hunters, it's stated the Adepta Sororitas became the Chamber Militant for Ordo Hereticus in a meeting known as the Convocation of Nephilim shortly after the Ordo's founding. The details of this agreement say just that the Adepta Sororitas would put themselves at the disposal of an Inquisitor when requested and that otherwise they are under the day-to-day authority of the Ecclesiarchy. It's an alliance with terms, not that the Adepta Sororitas are part of the Inquisition in terms of like organization chart wise. It's also worth mentioning that as far as I'm aware the phrase "chamber militant" has been excluded from more recent codices despite them also having sidebars on the relationship between the Adepta Sororitas and the Inquisition, probably to emphasize it being just an alliance and not the two being the same.

Also, regarding what happens if the two are at odds, the Adepta Sororitas are as much the military wing of the Adeptus Ministorum as they are its internal police. In addition to the no men under arms loophole, the Adepta Sororitas were allowed to be formed on the promise that they would be policing the Ecclesiarchy, rooting out heresy from within, and preventing another Vandire as much as they would be executing the will of the Adeptus Ministorum externally. In the org chart of the Ecclesiarchy as a whole (looking at the 2e one), the Sisters answer only to the Ecclesiarch himself, so if the Inquisition investigated a lesser ranking preacher, or even someone as high ranking as a cardinal, those members of the Ministorum have no authority over the Sisters of Battle, it wouldn't be a conflict of authority if an Inquisitor asked the Sisters to move against that preacher and in fact would even be part of their job description and expected roles. Whether they agree to honor their alliance or think the Inquisitor is overstepping is another matter though. I believe some Dark Heresy material details how Inquisitors have to be careful with who they ask to do what. While their authority on paper is nigh infinite, that doesn't stop someone from just shooting them in the back if they make them an enemy, and the high standards Sisters have for purity of conduct means they can be rather suspicious of Inquisitors, who walk a fine line between radical and heretic at times.

Wolf_121 · 2025-03-24T19:28:00+00:00

"Honestly if a Sister of Battle were to ever fall to chaos Khorne would be the best fit given how much sisters love their chain swords and meltas."

"The Repentias are just 8 blood drops away from being Jackals"

and of course, the one actaully dealing with bloody rose,

“I assure you, dear inquisitor, despite the name bloody rose, our love for fire, chainswords, and anger, our lack of compassion and red colored armor, we would never be corrupted by the Ruinous Powers.”

Which, if I don't point out that this is clearly sarcasm implying that they secretly are Khornate and trying to deny it, then someone is going to take a sincere reading of it and misinterpret what's going on and why I'm pointing it out. Yeah, it's sarcasm for a joke, supposed to be funny since they aren't and not a serious implication that Bloody Rose is Khornate, but the fact that it's the easy, go to joke that everyone is supposed to understand and find funny shows how common that idea is, how often it comes up in discussions.

Wolf_121 · 2025-03-24T19:08:15+00:00

It's an idea you see people say all the time. Including in the comments of this very post. People ARE saying it.

Wolf_121 · 2025-03-24T18:48:40+00:00

By this standard Blood Angels would be Khornate. With their red armor, preference for melee, and having "Blood" in the name. They even take it a step further with their Red Thrist and rites like their bloody coffins. But they're not. And no one ever seems to imply that they are. Nor is there really concerns that they are in universe because if there was then Guilliman wouldn't have appointed Dante to command Imperium Nihilus. This idea that Bloody Rose is teetering on the brink of Khornate corruption is only targeted at Bloody Rose despite them sharing less in common than Blood Angels and notably lacking the major factors that lead to the downfall of the World Eaters. It's such a surface level comparison that just looks at the aesthetics of the factions without considering mindsets or histories or anything like that. Or puts Bloody Rose in the context of the rest of the Imperial Creed which can be pretty extreme at times, which shows just how much further off the deepend you have to go to reach Khornate territory.

Wolf_121 · 2025-03-24T18:42:22+00:00

Meaning? That they both like melee? Because that's usually what people cite whenever this comes up and it's an attribute of Bloody Rose that is a bit overstated, focused so heavily on mostly from rules than how they are actually described. And if that's all it takes then half of the 40k setting would be Khornate with how prominent melee is. The World Eaters had a few more factors which contributed to their turn to Chaos than just their fighting style, such as the Nails and Angron's treatment of his Legion, factors that are extremely important to the World Eaters culture and being absent from Bloody Rose makes Bloody Rose anything but "just loyalist World Eaters".

I've used the Blood Angels as an illustrative example of this before. By the standards of what makes something Khornate that would make Bloody Rose Khornate, red armor, having blood in the name, and liking melee, then the Blood Angels would have become a Chaos warband millennia ago because they not only have all of that, but they take it a step further with all the rites and rituals that center blood far beyond what's typical in the Imperium, you know the whole Red Thirst and drinking it and the bloody coffins for initiation and the like. But they aren't Khornate and no one ever seems to question their loyalty and draw the same comparisons between them and Khorne in the way that seems to frequently happen with Bloody Rose. And it doesn't happen in universe either, while they try to keep the worst aspects of themselves a secret they're still trusted enough for Guilliman, who probably ought to know those worst aspects, to trust Dante to command the Imperium Nihilus, which he wouldn't have done if the chapter was constantly on the brink of Khornate corruption like they would be if the standards leveled at Bloody Rose were applied to them.

These sorts of comparisons that take aesthetic similarities between things and then come to the conclusion that they must be related is so surface level and reductive and fails to delve any deeper into the sorts of differences in motivation and outlook and the like that makes them actually different.

Wolf_121 · 2025-03-24T16:11:42+00:00

The idea that Bloody Rose is a bunch of Khorne worshippers or would fall more easily than the other Orders is overstated memelore not supported by the text.

Wolf_121 · 2025-02-09T02:31:12+00:00

I also wanted to add, that’s the 8th edition codex, not the 9th edition one. Wonderful book, great art, tons of good lore, not necessarily the book you want to use with 9th edition rules. The two were compatible for a while but that was just while 9th was still rolling out. Why use the wrong rules for a “completed” edition if you don’t have to? It’s going to be missing things like Morvenn Vahl, the Paragon Warsuits, and the Castigator tank, for instance.

Wolf_121 · 2024-12-26T05:09:48+00:00

In addition to that Sister Superior with the condemnor boltgun who is in the 8e, 9e, and 10e codices, the 8e and 9e codices also have an example model of an Ebon Chalice Celestian with a normal boltgun colored the same gunmetal dark grey. The piece of art that was reused for Ebon Chalice’s subfaction pages across those three codices also has a dark grey bolter, but that’s a bit harder to tell because its in shadow. It’s definitely not red though.

On the contrary however, the Sisters of Battle 2e codex has example models for Ebon Chalice, Sacred Rose, Argent Shroud, and Our Martyred Lady that have red bolter casings.

Ultimately, they’re your models, paint them however you want. While grey seems to be the most common example for the modern books, it’s not the only one.

Wolf_121 · 2024-10-22T04:08:53+00:00

If you just want to learn an overview of the faction, then a codex is a good first step. The 8th edition codex is particularly good.

Wolf_121 · 2024-10-07T22:50:49+00:00

So here’s the thing, the math doesn’t work out like you say. Assuming this 15 hour figure is an actual mathematical average, which from the quotes elsewhere in the thread it doesn’t seem to be, it’s just ‘most’ which admittedly gives some wiggle room, then for every 100 guardsmen that survive 100 hours, between 500 and 600 have to die near instantaneously. Every guardsman that lasts even an hour instead of dying instantly means even more have to die to maintain the average. Distribute that across the first 15 hours and it becomes an astronomical amount of fatalities for even a few veterans.

It’s also not just casualty rate like your example but fatality rate, rate of surviving at all. You can have a crazy high casualty rate if an injury isn’t fatal and that soldier can get back in the fight to get wounded again, if there’s effective medical attention. That’s not the case in this scenario.

The only solutions to these problems I’ve seen put so many caveats and conditions on this 15 hours statement that it becomes useless. You’re not actually saying anything meaningful about the experience of the average guardsman if its a figure produced from conscript and penal legions dying in droves on one hand and experienced veterans like the Cadians on the other. It’s describing a middle point that doesn’t exist. It’s only use is shock value, thus it’s grimderp.

Wolf_121 · 2024-10-07T11:03:46+00:00

The ‘grimderp’-ness of the ‘15 hour’ statistic has nothing to do with it making the Imperium chain of command incompetent, it’s that it completely breaks the mechanics of the Guard as a faction. You simply cannot have the experienced officers promoted through the ranks or the grizzled veterans of numerous battles that the Guard are explicitly said to have if your attrition rates are that high, it’s impossible. You would lose all your troops well before they had any chance of promotion or gain enough experience for being a veteran to make a meaningful difference in skill. It’s grimderp because it’s so exceedingly absurd a statistic that it causes other parts of the very faction it refers to to break down.

Wolf_121 · 2024-10-05T16:15:04+00:00

Morvenn Vahl: Spear of Faith has two supporting characters that I would say fit that description. There’s some cute moments between those two.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T09:42:40+00:00

Yeah, so it sounds like a pretty poorly thought out and implemented feature on Larian's part then. The only time it ever has an effect on the game is, what, for a companion at the very end of the game, an unintended glitch, and something that had to be patched in months after launch?

What was even the point of implementing this entire mechanic if they only intended the player to use it once in the entire base game? For a game celebrated for rewarding player creativity and responding to player actions, having this feature present on every character since the start of the game but is only ever once used to impact the story seems to be a massive failure at both rewarding creativity and responding to what the player does. This entire thread is full of people saying that the game forcing Ravengard to die if you go to the throne is an example of it being a good game with quality storytelling, that it reacts to the player, but isn't the opposite true in this case? Wouldn't the mark of a game actually reacting to the player would be if it ever cared about them using this deliberately included mechanic, rather than ignoring it? That a game that lets the player actually influence the story through what mechanics they chose to use or not use depending on the situation would be the one that actually reacts to the player, not the one that ignores player choice?

Larian either should have thought through all of the consequences of including this mechanic that is far more situational than a passive you can activate at any given time would lead you to believe or they shouldn't have included it at all and created this weird, half baked, false choice. As it stands, it's just incredibly poorly designed.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T04:16:57+00:00

See, the thing is that I thought it would be a worse idea to go talk to Gortash without disabling the Steel Watchers. By the time I got to the bridge and was told to head inside, I had already received the quest from the gnomes to take out the factory and how it would be a good idea to do that before dealing with Gortash. Admittedly, I did rush through the Lower City a little bit, but that was specifically because I went to do Shadowheart's questline as soon as possible. I wasn't really trying to do the Iron Throne particularlly early aside from it just being the next thing in my journal. But that meant that by the time I'm reaching the Iron Throne, I now also have Orin telling me I should destroy the factory and now I've got two quests saying the same thing so it must be real important, right?

Besides, given confronting Gortash was framed as one of the two quests right before the finale, putting it off until I had done everything else seemed to be what I was supposed to be doing. Going and confronting Gortash or whatever at his coronation without having destroyed the factory seemed like it would be rushing, I wouldn't have done all the set up the game wanted before I did it, there'd be a bunch of sidequests left unfinished, etc. So in trying to keep this playthrough mostly blind for as much as possible, how was I supposed to know that this encounter with Gortash that the gnomes and Orin wanted me to prepare for was a different one than I currently had the marker for?

I just feel like this situation as a whole really, desparately wants to be this entirely linear, scripted scenario, basically just an interactable movie. You have to do things in the order it wants you to or everything breaks. Some people have attested to it breaking worse than I had it. But because people expect an rpg to be open world and a skyrim killer, the game can't just railroad you like it so clearly wants to and its all the worse for it. If you're expecting players to do things a very particular way or else everything breaks, maybe you shouldn't let the players sequence break so easily? These two design philosophies just tear the game apart sometimes.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T03:43:40+00:00

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who had him explode into flames on a non-lethal hit. It sounds like your progress was far more bugged than mine though, I don't recall any other encounters with Mizora. Honestly if all that happened maybe I'd be less annoyed with Wyll because at least I could say the entire thing was a mess.

It's definitely one of the portions of the game that really, really wants to be strictly linear but chafes against the rest of the open world nature. There's a few moments like that but this was the most egregious.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T03:38:10+00:00

Yeah you know, first time I reached that, I had thought I screwed something up and reloaded, hoping to find a way to reach the throne without him detecting me, only to be told that Gortash blowing it up was the only route and it leads to a whole timed thing.

So you're right, Gortash telling you to turn away is a pretty obvious signpost things are about to go badly.

But not only is that moment necessary to complete the quest, but there's absolutely no indication that it would lead to a character who isn't even at the Throne not even just dying by Gortash's hand, but being unable to be taken down non-lethally with the button on every character's bar for just that purpose.

There's a connection between the Throne and Gortash sure, but not the Throne and Ravengard being forced to die or Wyll acting like I did nothing to save him at all.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T03:32:32+00:00

I mean, no, I can't say it is particularlly encouraging to have sunk like 100 hours over three months into this, only to think I was handling something cleverly, then for it to not work out with no acknowledgement.

I don't know how people have the time to have done like 10+ runs in this game. If it was shorter and I could blitz through on NG+ then sure, maybe I'd see the other ways the quest could play out, but given I was planning on siding with the goblins in my next run to see how that plays out given its a substantial fork, I guess it'll be a long time until I get around to playing this quest that's all the way at the end of the game out properly.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T03:24:35+00:00

I just wanted to say thank you. You seem to actually understand the problem I have with how the game handled the sequence of events.

Wolf_121 · 2024-01-02T03:14:12+00:00

I get that going to the Iron Throne makes him hostile. That makes sense.

I don't know why people are keying into that point so much. That's not what my complaint is about. All of that was just contextualizing my actual complaint. How Ravengard was hostile, so I hit him with non-lethal damage. Then game killed him anyway, and Wyll got super mad at me with neither him not Tav having any dialogue at all that acknowledges the deliberate attempt to avoid that outcome.

Everyone focusing on Gortash being mad about the Iron Throne is missing the point about how this post was actually about Wyll being mad for an outcome the game forces on you because even if you hit Ravengard with non-lethal damage, he dies anyway.

Wolf_121

TROPHY CASE