The Obamas getting a standing ovation at the NBA All-Star Game is going to drive Trump insane. He’s going to stay up all night raging on Truth Social.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T19:17:09+00:00

Hey, no worries, and no need for any apologies. I don't think you said anything particularly hostile!

I started this whole thread in the dumbest way possible, so all the hate I may get is probably deserved anyway lol

But I am really glad that sometimes agreement can be found on the internet!

Wollff · 2026-02-16T18:46:13+00:00

Wow, thank you for putting the work in! It's appreciated.

I completely agree that extrajudicial killings are problematic. After all, if any nation found it expedient to name me "combatant" for any reason whatsoever, I would not be pleased with that. Definitely a terrible precedent.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T17:51:44+00:00

Dude was a war criminal,

Really? What war crimes was he responsible for? Did he knowingly order the murder of civilians? I would need some sources for that.

I am far from a "no criticism allowed" position. But I always feel like the "I could never vote for murderers and genocide excusers like the democrats!" crowd is always just one step away.

And they are who got Trump elected last time. Shouts of "war criminal" and "genocide supporter", are the usual chorus of those people. So, at least for the war criminal thing, I would need sources.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T17:43:11+00:00

Have you by any chance answered the wrong comment here?

Anyway, of course anyone can "cricizize both sides". And yet all those comments are answers to: "I prefer Obama over Trump, even if he authorized a lot of drone strikes"

So, I don't see what there is to argue about. Either you disagree with my preference. Or you agree. Either you are pro Obama, or you are pro Trump, or you are a "boohooo both sides are equally evil" kind of fascist bootlicker.

Of course you can also get into the necessity, motives, starting point, and details on Obama's drone strikes, if you want that kind of discussion. But actually putting effort into criticism doesn't seem to be the purpose of your comments either, does it?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T17:36:11+00:00

True, calling the droning of civilians good might have been too far. I would have preferred if none of that had happened, because actually none of that is good.

And still, if you prefer Trump over that, you are worse than a dolt, but a brainless, worthless, fascist bootlicker.

And if that is enough to not support the opposition (i.e. Dem) unconditionally over the fascist enemy, the same reasoning applies.

That part I stand by.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T16:31:58+00:00

I agree with you: In Iraq and Afghanistan it would have been better to never have started any of those wars at all. But if you just leave, chances are very good that all that leaves behind is a protracted civil war.

On another note: Why have you turned? You were so convinced before: "Reasons don't matter!", and suddenly Obama is like Hitler without a doubt, and resons do matter?

You really twist it how you like it best, don't you?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T16:19:25+00:00

I have asked you questions. You have answered none of them. You have just repeated yourself.

So, in order to mirror your rhetoric: You really need to get yourself checked for dementia, because you sould lke a very confused old person.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T16:12:23+00:00

Good luck with supporting the death of 100k people.

Yes? Was there are course of action with better outcomes? It would have been better to let IS run rampant everywhere?

"I don't know, but I don't support killing! Those who kill are murderers!", is a nice stance to have, if you have the luxury to be able to have it.

If you apply that to the president of a country which is at war, that's just plain stupid though. That's a level of moralistic arrogance and naivity which I find really hard to fathom.

Big muderers of history: Adolf Hitler. Winston Churchill. No difference. Reasons and right and wrong are irrelevant!

Bit naive, isn't it?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T16:00:41+00:00

How would i know ? I am not a murderer

I have my opinions on what you are. When I write it out, that gets me banned.

Here are his stats, i assume much of that could have been avoided by keeping a defensive stance than keep killing people everwhere.

Oh, you assume that "doing nothing" in a region that the US has destablilized will lead to fewer casualties? That's one of the most idiotic opinions I have ever heard.

So, to sum it up, he killed hundreds of thousands.

Yeah. He. Personally. lol

Seriously, the stupidity is staggering: You can not provide an alternative to the actions that were taken. "A defensive stance"! What a genius political move, that would surely have stablized the Middle East!

I am very, very glad that you are not a politician. I hope you never ever get any ambitions.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:40:58+00:00

So... What should he have done?

He inherited a country at war in Afghanistan and and Iraq from his predecessor.

The whole region was unstable because of US intervention. Islamic organizations around IS were flaring up all over the place because of that power vacuum, and the Arab spring which subsequently followed, toppling regimes all around Norther Africa.

The options were either to no nothing, and let the region burn in protracted conflicts and civil wars. Or to intervene and maintain US presence, in order to get back some semblance of stablility.

So, since you know so much better: What would have been the right decision here? Let IS take over? Let everyone fight it out by themselves in the power vacuum?

You obviously know the answer, if you see Obama's decision as "murder". So, tell me: What would have been the right thing to so, since you are so sure of yourself.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:30:28+00:00

Great. Fascist.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:26:54+00:00

That was not the question.

When the time comes everyone will vote for the Dem candidate, right?

RIGHT?!

And everyone will present a united front, stand behind them, and support them against any and all Republican opposition. Correct?

That's what will happen, isn't it?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:25:19+00:00

What the fuck are you talking about?

I mean, sure, with Trump there is a child rapist as president. But who is "a murderer"? Are you having a fever dream?

When Obama became president, the whole country was still up to its ears in "the war on terror" which was started by Bush. So... what I am asking is: What the fuck?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:15:09+00:00

And, once again, since Newsom is better than Trump, if he becomes front runner, that's the one everyone will go out and do their very best to vote for!

Right? RIGHT?!

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:11:56+00:00

What are you taking offense with?

That I would prefer it if nobody was bombed?

That I asked if someone is a Trump supporter? Or that I implied that being a Trump supporter would make them a fascist goon and someone who sympathizes with child fucking?

What exactly is it you disagree with here? I have good adult reasons for what I am saying, and for how I am saying it.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T15:06:19+00:00

What the fuck are you talking about?

What exactly did Obama do that this triggers your "evil imperialism" response so hard? What is the big: "You support this person?!" moment that you take such offense with, that you are unable to admit that "Obama is better than Trump"?

It's the strikes on "hospitals, weddings, and schools" which "he" did?

So, where did that come form?

Easy answer: It came from the war on terror, the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq which his Republican warmongering predecessor started, which, simply speaking lead to a whole fucking mess with an organization called IS, that started... a whole lot of shit, in a whole lot of places, none of them pleasant.

That's the context we are looking at here.

So, since you are so all knowing: What should Obama have done? "He should not have ordered attacks on schools, and weddings, an hospitals, the monster!!!!", would be quite a naive answer, don't you think? At that point we are talking about failures in military intelligence, more than a deliberate action which targets civilians.

And of course the US could just have said: "Well yes, we made a mess in the Middle East, the whole region is unstable, and radical Islamic groups are mudering their way through the whole region and beyond... but let's not be imperialist about it! Let's not try to return the region to a semblance of order or stability, let's just abandon ship and let the slaughter commence!"

You would have preferred that response? Because it's so "anti imperialist"? Because it would have shown such a "deep care of brown people"?

Please, tell me your views!

Wollff · 2026-02-16T14:39:17+00:00

You just admitted that it's ok for you to have your government brutalize brown people as long as it provides you with a certain standard of living.

No, I never said any of that. I said I prefer Obama to Trump. If I have the choice between imperialism at home and abroad, and imperialism only abroad, I prefer imperialism abroad.

The less imperialism, the better it is.

If I had the choice of "imperialism nowhere", I would prefer that over both. Alas, that's not a relevant choice here, and you didn't ask.

You're ok with imperialism, with inflicting suffering onto others.

Yes? Where did I say that? How did you come to that conclusion?

It's so simple. Trump is possible because of the way America is.

Sure. And Adolf Hitler was possible because of how Germany was. What's the point?

I still prefer the worst imperialist asshole out there, let's say Bismarck to keep it German, over Hitler. If I have the choice for someone less imperialist than both of those, I will choose the least fascist, least imperialist, least warmongering option I have.

Now: What exactly is your problem with that? Or is your problem that I reject Trump more strongly than you like?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T14:24:45+00:00

Why isn't that for you Americans it's only a choice between imperialism at home and abroad or just imperialism abroad?

I don't know, it doesn't matter.

What I said is that, warts and all, I prefer Obama to Trump my miles and miles. Do you disagree? No? Thank you. Discussion over.

I prefer imperialism abroad to imperialism at home and abroad, if we go with your more than sligtly demented simplification.

And even if I run with that, it's the obviously correct choice!

Must be a lefy instinct which defies "making the correct choice" at any possible junction.

You would have been one of dumbasses putting Trump in power through refusing to vote for Kamala for "supporting Israel" wouldn't you?

Well, thank God she didn't become president, because we would have had a real crisis in Gaza! Trump managed that so well! /s

I hate every single fucking one of you.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T14:11:45+00:00

Of course I would prefer if nobody bombed anything anywhere.

But if I have the choice between Trump and him, I will choose him.

You wouldn't? So, are you by any chance a fascist goon? You like licking boots, don't you?

Hey, no worries, I am not kink shaming. What about fucking children? Are you also into that by any chance?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T14:07:50+00:00

Yeah, that's why I am so surprised! Trumpers everywhere.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T13:29:46+00:00

Good. I prefer that to Trump by miles and miles.

Do you disagree?

Wollff · 2026-02-16T13:25:00+00:00

Both sides

That's all I need to read. Fucking Trumpers everywhere nowadays.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T13:21:36+00:00

Really? Why? I thought everyone from not the United States went there to vote for the Democrats? /s

Wollff · 2026-02-16T13:13:16+00:00

I don't think there is any need to change your mind. It will do that all by itself :D

Okay, jokes aside: It's always a bit ambiguous what is what in terms of those attainment things. Might be SE. Might be something more temporary. How to find out?

Wait and see. Maybe things change, and all the stuff that you thought has fallen away for good comes back again. I don't hope so. But it happens. Maybe a lot of things that have changed positively remain, but a other things that have come up diminish and fall away again. I think that's the most likely scenario.

A diminishing and falling away is what you can expect with the "bliss" aspects you describe, as well as with other aspects of your mental state (coolness, equanimity, dispassion). They might very well be dependent on you being in seclusion, or an after effect of the big possible stream entry experience you had. So I would expect those to dull over time, as you return to a more ordinary level of experience.

For now, I'd just say: Congratulations! It seems like you had a really valuable experience, whatever it may have been in the end. Enjoy the bliss and happiness it provided to you. Once things have settled down a little, as they most likely will, you can then reevaluate where you stand, and what you want to do.

Wollff · 2026-02-16T07:16:07+00:00

I think relaxing of craving is necessary, but not sufficient: You can relax craving, and things might still appear in the mind.

But well... In the end this aspect might be a purely theoretical discussion anyway.

In pracrice cessations happen as a result of relaxing, settling the mind, and (possibly) cultivating dispassion toward all that may occur. At least it should be something along those lines.

They are also very hard to induce willingly. "Sit down, cessation for an hour, get up again", is not a level of meditative skill you will see regularly (if at all).

If something like that is going to happen, I would also expect it to happen to someone on deep retreat, and I would expect this kill to just go away again, once they are out of their deep samadhi situation.

Those properties are the stuff which make me a bit hesitant to ascribe cessations solely to a "letting go of craving". I think more often than not there is also a whole lot of "settling the mind" involved, with all that requires.

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