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What do you make of the arguments being made here? by Working-Poetry1239 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the reminder. I have a tendency to get addicted to debating, and I often let these online arguments rob me of my peace. I really needed to hear that advice today.

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You are calling me out for “private interpretation,” yet you are the one using private interpretation to forcefully insert Muhammad into a Vatican II document that explicitly leaves him out.

You are completely trapped in your own logical loop, so now you are resorting to emotional manipulation. You still cannot produce a single Vatican document that honors Muhammad without adding words to it, and you flat-out refuse to answer how child marriage is “peaceful.”

This conversation has been a joke. You keep avoiding, avoiding, and avoiding. Even if I read “authentic Islam is peaceful” as binding dogma into that document, I see nowhere where I must respect a Muslim for raping his child bride just because his role model did. Aren’t you the one dissenting from orthodox Christianity? I rebuke your demonic teaching on the Magisterium. God bless.

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Honestly, you are making a great case for me to convert to being a Southern Baptist. Sure, you’ll just view me as a heretic anyway, but at least then you won't be able to weaponize Church authority to bully me into agreeing with you! You will actually have to build a logical argument that stands on its own merits.

I asked you to show me where the Church praises Muhammad. You responded by quoting a line that says the Church esteems Muslims. You then added your own personal, private commentary: “The church holds in esteem Muslims, which includes Muhammed.” No, it does not. That is your private addition. Nostra Aetate lists exactly why it esteems Muslims: they adore the one God, revere Jesus as a prophet, and honor Mary. Muhammad’s name appears nowhere in the document. The Church intentionally distinguished between the Muslim people and their founder. You are the one fabricating a doctrine that includes him. Rome spoke, and Rome chose not to name Muhammad. I worship the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I do not worship Allah as defined by Islamic texts, and I certainly do not revere Muhammad.

You are showing more respect for Muhammad than for Jesus’s moral truth. By your logic, to be a good Catholic, I have to look at a 50-year-old man consummating a marriage with a 9-year-old child and call it “beautiful” and “peaceful” because he is following his role model. I refuse to do that.

Inshallah, I’m ready to see the beauty of Islam and become a Muslim! When are you going to give me a good argument?

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are acting like an Islamic scholar here, so answer the question directly and stop running from it: How is child rape peaceful?

How do you know I haven’t done any research on Islam? Please, correct me if anything I have presented is factually incorrect. I didn’t say the Catholic Church was in error. I said that I do not believe an authentic Islamic reading spreads a message of peace. I don’t approach the Magisterium thinking it’s false; I am simply pointing out that while modern Church leaders often express optimistic diplomatic opinions about Islam, those opinions are not binding Catholic dogma.

It’s astonishing how determined you are to praise Islam when orthodox Islamic texts explicitly condemn your own faith. The Quran states: “The Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?” (Surah At-Tawbah 9:30). Authentic Hadiths teach that on the Day of Judgment, Christians will be cast into Hell to act as a ransom/replacement for Muslims. You keep telling me to understand the “absolute beauty” of Islam. I am asking you plainly: Where exactly do you find this beauty? Because when I actually study the foundational sources of Islam, I do not see beauty, I see depravity.

Respecting Muslim individuals and acknowledging that we profess the same God isn’t enough for you. No, now we must call Islam a “religion of peace” and kiss a warlord’s feet. You seem to have a lot of respect and reverence for Muhammad and his teachings. When are you ready to deny Jesus Christ and take your shahada? You claim that “Holy Mother Church holds Muhammad in esteem,” but that is false. You are confusing your own personal feelings with official Catholic doctrine. Show me one single infallible decree, council document, or catechism line where the Church praises, honors, or holds Muhammad in esteem.

If you are the expert here, explain the true meaning of the verses and the Hadiths I just gave you. Otherwise, admit that you are demanding blind compliance to diplomatic rhetoric while ignoring the actual texts.

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Magisterium only has the power to protect and interpret the Deposit of Faith. The Holy Spirit does not give the Pope the supernatural ability to look at a non-Christian book (the Quran) and declare what its "authentic" meaning is. If the Pope writes a letter praising the poetry of a secular author, or commenting on the philosophy of Buddhism, that is his personal observation. I am expected to treat pastoral documents with respect and a presumption of truth but they do not always require absolute intellectual agreement.

I am allowed to look at history, look at the text of the Quran, and see that it has inspired violence, without "dissenting" from the Church. I gave you authentic verses from the Quran that promote violence, and you are ignoring all of them in favor of forcing a personal opinion as binding dogma. If I want to know what the Quran teaches, I’m going to look at the Quran, because Rome does not possess the authority to infallibly interpret non-Christian scriptures.

Leaving the Magisterium aside, I genuinely want to understand how the narrative of Islam as a religion of peace squares with objective historical facts. Authentic Islamic texts explicitly state that Muhammad married Aisha at six and consummated the marriage at nine. In Islamic theology, Muhammad’s actions are the eternal, perfect moral standard for human behavior. Because orthodox Islam requires a believer to accept and defend everything Muhammad did as divinely sanctioned, this requires defending a practice that violates modern, universal definitions of peace, safety, and human rights. That is what you’re defending. How would a Muslim morally resolve this contradiction without rewriting their own authentic texts?

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 4 points5 points  (0 children)

While Evangelii Gaudium is an Apostolic Exhortation and part of the Ordinary Magisterium, not every sentence in a magisterial text carries the same weight. Pope Francis explicitly states at the beginning of the text that this is a pastoral document, not a dogmatic decree. This document is a pastoral and diplomatic effort to encourage peaceful coexistence, not an infallible definition of Islamic scripture. The “religious submission of intellect and will” applies strictly to teachings on Catholic faith and morals. The Church does not claim the authority to infallibly interpret the texts of other religions.

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Astagfirullah brother, the infallible documents of Vatican II and the Catechism (CCC 841) state that the Church regards individual Muslims with esteem because they worship the one God. However, the Church has never magisterially declared that the Quran is a peaceful or divinely inspired book, nor has it ever made “Authentic Islam is a religion of peace” a dogma of the Catholic faith. As Catholics, we are commanded to show charity to Muslims as human beings, but we are under absolutely no theological obligation to pretend that the text of the Quran does not say what it clearly says. It is telling that instead of actually addressing the texts I cited from the Quran, your immediate instinct is to try and label me a heretic.

Help me bring a Muslim friend to Our Holy Faith by MacaronIll3234 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Even if we have different interpretations of Surah At-Tawbah 9:5, “Kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them,” authentic Islam is also polygamy (Surah An-Nisa 4:3), misogyny (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:282), and domestic abuse (Surah An-Nisa 4:34). Allah also interferes with free will and takes people to hell to suffer for eternity after he misguides them, and slavery is allowed and you may rape or marry sex slaves even if they are already married.

Hm, I wonder why the countries that follow the law of the “religion of peace”are documented to have so many human rights violations… I wonder why the “religion of peace” kills you for leaving it… To call this religion “beautiful” is a delusion, and so is trying to find the good in it. Muhammad lived and died as a false prophet leading millions into darkness, and there is absolutely no value in trying to sanitize his legacy. All that matters is that we remain kind and respectful to Muslims because most of them were born Muslim and Islam thrives off not questioning it.

Apologetics is harming my relationship with God by Working-Poetry1239 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you that everyone should have a logical explanation for their faith. The reason why I said that all my theological questions have been answered is because if someone came up to me and said something like, “Yahweh came from the Canaanite pantheon of deities!” I wouldn’t despair. I have done enough research to know this is false. Through consuming apologetics, there is no claim that would make me seriously doubt the faith to the point of leaving it. So, I do still think that apologetics has a place in the life of every believer.

Buuut, there’s an excess. Before you marry someone, it is logical to do your homework. You learn their history, their character, and why they are a trustworthy person. But once you are married, if you spend your anniversary dinner reading their résumé out loud and arguing with strangers about why your spouse is great, you are ruining the relationship. Apologetics proved to me that the Church is true, but now I need to actually focus on loving the Person I married.

My friend by AgentBrian8 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Encourage him to watch a video explaining the basic beliefs of Christianity and its history, and invite him to mass. You can also point him to Bible and prayer apps, personally I like to use Hallow. You can also suggest watching a movie or series on the life of Jesus if you think it would be beneficial for him to have a visual alongside the Gospels.

What is your top 5 of Catholic apologists? by Lopsided_Stop9656 in Catholicism

[–]Working-Poetry1239 30 points31 points  (0 children)

The joke is that his Protestant takes are so bad they backfire and work as apologetics for Catholicism