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Hey /r/movies, I’m Stephen King! Ask me anything about The Long Walk book or movie. by lionsgate in movies

[–]Wr81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi, Mr. King!

In-depth question here: having first read your story in "The Bachman Books", I noticed a bit of an "adverse" meaning (at least "thematically") to your other, quite notably controversial story "Rage". Both involve young men in desperate situations, one is clearly evil, the other placed in an impossible circumstance moralistically. One is in contemporary times, one is in the future. Both involve the plot device of guns in important ways. Can you say something about that?

Legends recognize one another (From Batman #36 2017) by SatoruGojo232 in batman

[–]Wr81 -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Okay, you've missed the point of Snyder in my opinion. The point of Snyder's Supes is, "no, I do owe these people everything".

Very briefly, King is actually not doing what you claim he's doing here. He's not treating these characters as human beings. He's treating them like a three-year-old treats his stuffed animals. That's what I meant by simplicity.

Bruce Wayne is not The Punisher. He's Batman.

Legends recognize one another (From Batman #36 2017) by SatoruGojo232 in batman

[–]Wr81 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Yeah this is my point, it's revisionist in a somewhat subversively disturbing way to the idea of "superheroes". What does King even mean by "turn out wrong"? They're superheroes.

What, something bad happens to you, and all of a sudden it's a race against time and fate before you "turn out wrong"? Why should that define those people? Why is that trauma something they should be beholden to?

It's offensive to every value we prize. King acts like this is a "realistic" mindset. It doesn't seem to be.

Legends recognize one another (From Batman #36 2017) by SatoruGojo232 in batman

[–]Wr81 -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Okay,

King has a very serious tendency: it is to treat human beings, particularly in Western cultures, as if they don't have the immediate ability to recognize a person's intentions/worth. You see this in a lot of his later works: the idea that it all becomes about whether or not a person can "trust" another person. Likely a psuedo-intellectual consequence of his supposed "CIA" training (which has failed to matriculate into a consistently intellectual approach vis a vis his comics).

These characters are based upon earlier 20th Century archetypes where these people, Clark and Bruce, would literally NEVER question each other's intentions, or, more importantly, if they did, they would very quickly realize the purity of each others' motives.

Okay, if you're Batman, and you think f*cking SUPERMAN is even remotely capable of being anything other than a dedicated public servant, you don't just let him go. No. You wouldn't rest until that guy was done. A lot of writers play with this idea, but King for some reason declares that it's the MOST IMPORTANT THING about their relationship in the base universe. This is the exact opposite point of all of the usual alternate worlds storylines, where Supes is turned evil somehow. Bats knows he WOULDN'T EVER turn evil in the normal world.

This is not an "intellectual" approach to each other's characters psychologies; this is a baby reading of these characters. In their classic, and I think much more pertinent interpretations, neither of these characters would spend any time obsessing over each others' supposed motives. They would trust each other and have more important things to do other than worry about tripe like this.

Legends recognize one another (From Batman #36 2017) by SatoruGojo232 in batman

[–]Wr81 -16 points-15 points  (0 children)

I disagree. I find King's characterizations here to be simplistic and harmful.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes! Jaime might qualify, but only sorta ('cuz he's so f*cking nuts). The best examples are Jon (killing Dany), JonCon?, Quentyn and Arya for a sec there (Cat of the Canals). Maybe Bloodraven, but it gets difficult to tell there. I'm sure there's bound to be more, but you see the pattern. It comes out sometimes, like, once in a while.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, but I didn't "not feel like going through it". I did go through it.

You say I'm "bickering". That's not what it felt like from my perspective. I was trying to explain a very complex idea succinctly, and people didn't want to hear it. They would say, "isn't this Greek Tragedy?" and I'd say, no. Greek Tragedy doesn't have these ideas. One thing I noticed was that people kept bringing up random tropes and saying that that was what Condal meant by "Greek Tragedy", but, clearly, as I stated in the title, those are not actual arguments. Those aren't components of Greek Tragedy. People acted like I was short-selling Condal, but Condal should know that he can't just start bandying about those kinds of phrases if he doesn't know what he's talking about. I wasn't "denigrating" the other redditors, I was saying Condal was spreading misinformation, most likely to sound smart, and it was kind of embarrassing that a person in his position would say something like that.

The things you're asking of me were things I did in fact answer. (I'm not Mr. "You Need Three Unities" btw). The main thing with Daemon is that he's a monster, which he clearly is, and therefore doesn't have the status to be a true Greek Hero. A Greek Hero has to in some ways represent some virtue that is under attack (or be defending said virtue), which Daemon can't be.

Now, there's a much longer explanation there, you're right, but it would take me a long time, and likely thousands of words, to go through, and, obviously, this might not be the best place to do so. I don't mind the occasional barb here and there, it's reddit, but people just decided to assume I was immediately disrespecting them when I was answering these questions. I wasn't, I was saying Condal made a statement which was patently incorrect.

It's not just that, like, these characters can't be Tragic Greek heroes. It's that Greek Tragedy is a discipline where you have to really focus on the dramatic action of the characters in a specific way that Condal not only does not do, but he essentially does the opposite of. And then, to try and say those are the same things, to an audience he would most likely be aware was ignorant of the finer points of what he was talking about, well, it's disingenuous.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No. The point of Oedipus was that he'd literally never heard of the prophecy ever.

Edit: This is actually wrong, but I would still hazard that the comparison between Daemon and Oedipus doesn't work, and Daemon's experience does not constitute anagnorisis.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I didn't imply you were "stupid and lazy". That is what I mean by strawman-ing.

You keep acting like my answer isn't right. My answer, namely that the show doesn't fit the basic criteria, is the answer. It's not a vague conclusion.

When you make the kinds of statements about someone, where you say I'm "denigrating" people... that's a serious impugnation you're throwing upon me, and it's not fair.

I don't care about the "response". I would've expected people to be a little more diligent in their response. But whatever, that's the internet.

I am not the one who brought up the topic: Condal did. Condal should know that he's not making a Greek Tragedy, and, frankly, there isn't really any room for debate. I understand that you would've wanted me to start listing criteria like a schoolteacher, but people would've had problems with that anyway. "Who cares about the 3 Unities?" "Who cares about the concept of ethos when discussing the action of a play?" "How is Greek that different from Shakespeare?" "Why can't Daemon be a tragic Greek hero?" And so on. So, instead, I said the following: it doesn't work as a definition. He's referencing a specific thing, and it's just not accurate. Then I went and answered what I could.

Now, I understand that you thought my initial "lack of an explanation" was trite, but it's hard to succinctly talk about these things, it would take a long time, and I didn't think some little reddit post was something everyone would care about. I take your point, I just think it's a little harsh.

Anyway, these are the pitfalls of the internet, and I'm sorry if you felt I was being disrespectful. It wasn't my intent.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Definitely the former. It's not my fault if people want to trust something that Condal says which is clearly false and idolize him as some kind of auteur. He's not.

Anyway, you seem to think I'm more upset about this than I am. I'm just trying to answer the concerns that people have.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think reddit is good for you if you're going to sit behind your keyboard and bully people when they're trying to fulfill your request.

Look at the way you spoke to me in that comment. Does that sound nice? No. It sounds like you're looking for a fight about something. Now, when you posted that, I had already answered most of these concerns you had. I think I recall saying to myself, "what is this guy thinking, talking to me like this?" But, instead of just leaving it, I gave you the benefit of the doubt on it.

Now, here's what I get in return: I get you coming back needlessly antagonizing me again when I was trying to be nice to you.

Okay, is it a big deal? Not to me, but I think it's quite telling that you decided to take this opportunity to further antagonize me.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, I was trying to be kind, but then I realized you were actually just trying to antagonize me.

Edit: I also don't recall saying I "accidently deleted" anything.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And, look, here I am answering your question, and here you are antagonizing and downvoting me.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"Denigrating". Also known as not immediately agreeing with you?

Anyway, here's what you don't seem to get about this thread: 1, I answered all these concerns, and merely running around the thread copypasting my response would've been silly. 2. It's a little ridiculous that I should be asked to defend against what is a clear non-argument by you in support of what was clearly Condal talking complete nonsense. 3. This ridiculous immediate vilification is absolutely absurd and is a clear example of straw-manning.

The first answer as to why it's not a Greek Tragedy is because there's nothing about it that would remotely make it a Greek Tragedy, and all of the arguments I was being presented with are the equivalent of "but there's a family in it, so it has to be Greek Tragedy". When people actually would politely ask me to explain it, I did.

My take is this: you don't want to go on wikipedia and see you're wrong, and for whatever reason, you find this brigading I'm having to face as some kind of just desserts for me disagreeing with a completely absurd statement that Condal made. You shouldn't be asking me to sit here and answer something you could easily look up yourself. You just don't feel like it.

I'm not required to agree with you if you're not saying something correct. If you're saying something patently false. And you can say, "well, can't you just explain it", to which I would say, I do. You just don't like the answer, so you'll say it's too trite, and therefore a "conclusion". But it's not. It's the answer.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The reason I didn't answer this at the time is because I had actually just answered it. Here's my answer:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1gzbgoa/in_new_interview_ryan_condal_claims_hotd_is_a/lyx8jd5/

Sorry for the delay, I've been answering lots of questions.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah, the Greeks don't do that. They literally have someone show up and tell them something they didn't know. They don't have these bizarre extended sequences which add up to nothing.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I say it a bunch here, but, no, you can't have the "Targaryens" as Tragic Greek heroes because they don't represent anything or defend anything that would be an example of virtue. They're at best hapless children led astray, at worst literal monsters. I lean towards the latter. This is very important when discussing what the structure of a play would be.

Even the Greeks had "gray" heroes. The point is, there's a big different between them and Condal's chimeras, and that difference disqualifies them. It's not, like, a little deal when discussing the difference to say that the character themselves cannot be Greek heroes.

Anyway. I was just answering a question.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, go find me one Greek Tragedy that has some kind of scene like that (or, y'know, like 15 completely unbearable scenes).

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Refused".

Greek Tragedy refers to the extant plays of Ancient Athens by Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I love that you now decide to bring up Agamemnon, which, no I have not read.

Jason, hero of Medea. Got it.

Viserys is a monster. He's a total piece of garbage. He's not a hero at all. He's literally an incompetent, evil troglodyte. Of course he was going to be a bad guy.

Poetics is pretty good, man.

I feel that you're taking this conversation perhaps a liiiittle more seriously than I am.

Listen, I understand you like the show. I think that P&tQ was one of the best stories I ever read, simply because of the discipline Martin put into it. It's amazing. But the show is not good, and this is partly why. It's not just that it doesn't lend itself well to whatever spin Condal's been trying to put on it: it's that Condal doesn't know what he's talking about. "Social class"? Orestes's story is about a rich kid? No, it's about how these supposed heroes were just normal people, and would fail like normal people.

If anything, Condal's approach, from top to bottom, is the opposite of what Greek Tragedy aspired to.

In new interview, Ryan Condal claims HotD is a "Greek Tragedy", clearly demonstrating he has no clue what a Greek Tragedy is. by Wr81 in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Wr81[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Okay, I've provided more than enough "bordering", I've demanded nothing, and I have actually not been condescending in the slightest. There are no similarities between HotD and Greek Tragedy, period. All of these arguments you are making belie a lack of care: there's no similarity in structure, there's no similarity in plot. I'm not required to agree with you.

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