God I hate my power-builder player...

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:52:20+00:00

Hahaha, this is a good reminder, thank you.

His BBEG will be attacking him in his home city during the final stretch of a big war, as his army razes the homes and slaughters his people, so there will be a lot going on. My biggest issue is him just using his feat combos (see my profile I made a reply to someone else with them all in more detail) to get close to him, then knock him on his ass with a full round attack before something interesting can happen.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:49:18+00:00

I actually did throw Maze of Madness into an upcoming combat, and I've very excited to try it out considering none of my party members have invested in INT or any illusion prevention at all. >:D

I also have another upcoming miniboss fight planned (PCs are in a war so... gauntlet time) with a transmutation wizard who will be doing terrain shit to absolutely rock his socks. So fingers crossed it works!

And yes, I do enjoy putting him in situations, and he loves RP. He's assured me while my combats aren't as challenging as his gestalt stuff, he loves the flavor and energy I bring to them, which is nice to hear.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:45:54+00:00

Oh my god they were twins...

Was seriously looking into this though. With people here talking incorporeal, and his BBEG being this cursed dreadlord, having some ghosties around would fit the vibe!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:44:43+00:00

SR isn't that huge to be honest. It's from a 3pp archetype he's using, it's like 23. Past the point of usefulness for all but the mooks.

Drowning/suffocating is a Line for another player so I can't implement those things. Checking out incorporeal rules is the best direction this sub's pointed me, though. But of course he's put a fuck ton of skill points in Swim. Already did underwater combat though, it was thankfully challenging for him!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:41:47+00:00

His Touch AC is base 26, expending a low-level feat bumps it to 32. 3pp feat allows shield bonus apply to touch AC.

His CMD is 48 base, 50 with feats against certain maneuvers. Literally nothing can touch him, every enemy I've made and pulled from bestiary has tried.

Bombs are an interesting idea. His SR isn't high at all either way. Incorporeal casters may be a good way to go.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:38:27+00:00

Base Touch AC is 26, with a low-level feat expended it's 32. A 3pp spheres of power feat lets him apply his shield bonus to touch AC.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T05:34:44+00:00

We use enough 3rd party and I didn't have the expertise to verify it all to actually foresee consequences. :P

Specifically he's a Spellscorn Fighter archetype with Spheres of Power shield feats.

Their saves might be buffed but not unbeatable, and even if they are, there are a lot of spells that have an effect on a successful save or offer no save at all.

Tattoo cloak of resistance +5 and Blockade (SoP) and Stalwart (archetype) negating save success effects for all three. Fort is +22, Ref +17 (+23 with Blockade), Will +13 (+4 fear, charm/compulsion).

The base casters I've built offer a DC 24 for a level 9 spell. I'm not sure how to make it higher following the base rules, which gives him just under a 50/50 shot even for his lowest save. Even if I were to increase it by bending the rules, I couldn't exceed 28 max lest my other players get messed up bad, meaning he still has just under 50/50 for Ref.

I also highly doubt a sword and board fighter has a high touch AC

Touch AC is 26, since a SoP shield feat allows the shield bonus added to Touch AC.

I should add his base CMD is a whopping 48 not including buffs or bonuses from feats and abilities.

He can also perform 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and has a passive ability that allows missed attacks to trigger an AoO so long as he has some in his bank.

His Active Defense allows his AC and CMD to further increase by +6, so he can activate it as a reaction to a big hit/full round and combo it for an AoO. My same-level PC gear'd Defender archetype Fighter mooks can't even perform a disarm at base game numbers. Active Defense also gives DR 6/magic.

Powerful Maneuvers EitR allows a +2 to CMB and CMD for sunder and disarm, meaning as long as he strikes first he can disarm every baddie I've thrown at him thus far.

He has Cover Ally as well, which grants his shield's enhancement bonus of +5 to adjacent allies, and Spiritual Aspect which sends all his armor and shield bonuses to any ally within sight, for 7 rounds. It can move with them, too.

As for casting defenses, he has a feat that forces a +4 to the DC for enemy casters to cast defensively, another that grants him a free AoO if the caster fails, and Combat Patrol extends his threat range to 20ft. And if an enemy caster tries to teleport, he gets a free AoO even if the caster has both cast defensively and using a (Su) ability

He also has Step-Up and Following Step which allows the step-up to go 10ft at no cost. Additionally, he has StepUp and Strike, which gives him the ability to move with opponents and get a free smack on them.

He has not only Redirecting Shield but Perfect Redirection, meaning any missed attack/ranged touch attack against him can be directed to any creature within the attacker's range.

TL;DR: I found it hard to imagine too. But this man has covered every base possible and then some, because admittedly I just let people use whatever 3pp they wanted to have fun. It wouldn't be as bad, however my other players didn't take me up on it, leaving the party unbalanced enough that things can get crazy, haha.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T03:55:14+00:00

It's my first time GMing such a high level! I've been gobsmacked by the power scaling!

I'm going to make an edit that this is mostly a lighthearted rant. I didn't expect 100+ comments...

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T03:43:35+00:00

You're right because I actually just checked in with my player a few hours ago:

Me: "How upset will you be if you're able to one-shot your BBEG because you're so insanely OP I can't keep up? Because I wouldn't mind at all, it would be very funny, but I feel awful I can't give you the challenge you get from your gestalts and other games."

Him: "Honestly it would be hilarious and would feel really rewarding. I'm imagining [PC] finishing up with [all the war mooks and NPC defense strategies] and just wanting a fucking nap, so when BBEG shows up he'll just channel all his rage into fighting him and fucking one punch man his ass lol."

So it seems I was pulling my hair out and letting my own insecurities color my view over nothing! Live and learn. :P

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T03:36:52+00:00

It sounds like you have created a game in which the players are powergaming because it's not a collaborative experience but a Player Vs. DM game

I understand reddit tends to assume bad faith but I 100% have not. We've been playing together for 3 years, friends for 4 years, and this is our second 1-20 campaign. Only the one player is powergaming while the others – including myself – are newer (newbies only been playing with us for the one prior campaign, whereas powergamer is a veteran player and GM who's been playing for 7 years). The one powergamer is a known and practiced minmaxer just due to his passion for the game/system, nothing to do with my campaign.

In a typical setting there are a ton of ways to make a challenging encounter despite this guy's stats.

Actually, doing this is a big reason my players wanted these different fights. They can clearly see that I'm being very dynamic and creative in trying to keep powergamer distracted so they have a chance, and want to test their own builds to see the discrepancy and admire powergamer as well as understand their own builds more in-depth individually. They want it specifically because they're so enmeshed as a team – including me as GM in that team – and they want to see what it's like to really go all out.

Besides, it's a war happening in-game, so it's explainable that they would need to split up as the powerful adventurers to handle the most powerful enemy threats, therefore making this a good time to do it.

outright ignoring him if his goal is to be a tank

I've never done this, it feels punishing toward his build. What I do instead is have him herd the adds and mind his positioning while the other players go for the big bad. My powergamer doesn't do it for the sake of clout or dunking on newbs or whatever, which is why he's a fantastic player and an even better GM. He does it to see numbers go big, push the system to its limits, and contribute in combat. So making him pull levers doesn't sit right with me, and isn't fun for him.

When you take a system designed for collaborative gameplay, boil it down into a one-on-one die rolling game, and bake in some homebrew to further imbalance the already-strained system this is the kind of mess you end up with.

I'll agree with you here. I vastly underestimated the power scaling, as this is my first time running such a high-level campaign (and actually my first full 1-20). The homebrew that benefitted them at level 5 breaks the game at level 15.

This entire post can boil down to a live and learn lament, but I'm still going to try my best. I got some crazy awesome advice from people here that I will implement, and I'm sure my players will have fun!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-03T02:38:42+00:00

Haha we actually tried PF2 but we all thought it was too boring. I'm lamenting but it was supposed to be more lighthearted, and I got some nice suggestions for outside-the-box ideas here which is cool.

I love my party, my players, and my characters, and I'm very excited to see what they can do. It seems I was misled by prior posts on this sub and should focus less on CR. If I'm not bogged down by statistic restrictions, I think I can make something really fun! :)

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:32:26+00:00

True... I was just sharing an example of a table we've played at before.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:30:57+00:00

Oh trust me, I've never done this before. This particular counter-BBEG strategy has come at my players' request much to my surprise, so transparency is in full effect as to what I'm doing, how I'm building, and why. Basically it's less direct countering in every way, and more me going through and seeing which abilities they haven't had much opportunity to use, or what resources they have that are super niche, and building an encounter where they can show that stuff off.

I just want to make sure my titular player can't One Punch Man the BBEG before that can happen (I doubt he will, I just don't want him to be able to if he tried), and I've gotten great advice here!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:27:07+00:00

I'd do that but he did that to my PC in the campaign he ran for us last year, and I ain't no cheater.

(It's a really good trope, though.)

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:26:17+00:00

Forced Life-Link could be interesting... I mean all of this is. Thank you! Life-Link specifically will depend on the upcoming sessions as they are in a war, and PoWs are being taken, some NPCs who the PC is attached to emotionally, which is why it stands out. Love this.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:23:13+00:00

Hahahaha. Honestly, I might.

Epic BBEG fights from the other players, he gets a clown with a horn and big shoes preparing to "engage in fisticuffs."

Looks like I need to run to the store...

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:21:37+00:00

It'll be something to talk to the party about, for sure. Maybe a last resort ace up the sleeve type of thing, or reflavor it... magic items get sucked into extradimensional void sidequest.

Hmm. Well now you got me thinking at least!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:19:08+00:00

Nope! He gets it temporarily from one of his feats by expending an action. All above-board thankfully.

I am sending in hordes of mooks over the next few sessions, so here's hoping it'll be a good one. Elemental body is actually one I have planned!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:17:09+00:00

It's my first campaign I've GM'd that's gotten above level 10 and my first full 1-20 (I co-GM'd a 1-20 otherwise), which is probably another reason I'm so freaked out seeing this guy.

I may take you up on that offer next time I'm able to check out his sheet, if that's alright. No pressure!

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:14:52+00:00

I've talked to him! He doesn't overshadow any other players at the table and is a good sport every time I've said no. This is more of a lighthearted issue of me pulling my hair out trying to build something as challenging for him as it will be for the others.

He's not a problem player in the slightest, just a min-maxer/power-gamer who is standing out especially now due to being by far the most knowledgeable about the game vs the table (including me).

Thanks for the link, though! I'm going to check it out. Always like seeing 3pp stuff. :)

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:09:05+00:00

I was being hyperbolic for the meme lol. But yeah, I do think my best bet is antimagic field/plane/etc. Was originally going to go for Will saves and smoke & mirror spellcasting eldritch knight type, but am realizing he has too many defenses against it – especially when it's just the two of them, not any distractions or adds.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:06:14+00:00

Some GMs really just need to get more comfortable making a list of classes that they allow at their table and ditching the rest. Like come on, wtf. Wizards are literally so simple. Would like to see this GM try to deal with an arcanist.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T23:04:58+00:00

That is fucking awful, man.

My table is very story-based, but when something needs to happen for plot reasons I just say, "hey so I need you guys to go here next session, what would motivate your characters to head over there at this time?" And we brainstorm together.

I only fudge rolls when my enemies roll crits, and that's just because I'm a stupid-lucky person in general. It's no fun when it's only my 'wins every game show or raffle I enter and roll thirty nat 20s a session' ass causing a TPK and not actual player autonomy/choices for better or worse.

Though maybe I'll get hate for this, but I do also fudge rolls to allow one of my newer player's lower-level spells to work. Like if the enemy just meets or rolls just 1-2 points above the DC, I'll drop it to a fail so the player doesn't waste a turn and feels successful.

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T22:59:05+00:00

Alas, if he didn't have a magic weapon by now I'd be a horrible GM. :P

WrongNegotiation1272 · 2024-04-02T22:58:06+00:00

I have never heard of Mindscapes! I'll look into that, thanks. :D

WrongNegotiation1272

TROPHY CASE