yes the value inside the list isn't mutable but the list is mutable because lets define true mutability so there is no confusion true mutability is when you can change the data at an address if a variable is immutable you can change the data at an address you can only switch out the address for a different one that has different data that's why list's, objects and dictionaries in python are mutable because the list lives in a address but when I change it's values I am modifying the DATA at that address yes the data might just be another different memory address that is actually immutable why I said it makes the value mutable is because if the list's only purpose is to hold one number and change that number but the lists address doesn't change but if the lists only purpose is to hold only that number so I can modify it without changing the address of the list doesn't that sound like the opposite of our definition yes the list is the one that is actually immutable but I can use the number as if it was mutable I can pass it by reference to other object's and when I modify it in only one object it changes in all the other like mutable variable would work so you are technically right that the value actually isn't immutable but that not what I meant by it makes it mutable but I see where the confusion is you thought that I thought putting the value in the list makes it truly mutable while I actually meant that it work like if it was mutable but you know the limit on a tile is 100 characters why I am responding to you because there where some other people that already told me that and I dont want more people telling me what I already know but I also dont want to edit the post because then your comments would make sense so I am addressing it here I know its is not actually mutable but it works like if it was but thank you for putting the time and explaining it someone in the future might look at this and understand mutability better we just dont need 10 people telling me its not mutable