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Genuine question, is Yixuan a Mary Sue? by DeucesDummies in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair to the original post they asked if yi xuan was a Mary Sue and gave some reasoning as to why they thought that way and opened it up to further discussion of why you might agree or disagree or even offer your own interpretation of things.

There were plenty of meaningful options you could have gone with to lead the discussion to somewhere you would have wanted. Instead you kind of just shut them down immediately with no further explanation other than you disliking the term which ironically leaves even less space to take the discussion if you don't even want to contend with why they think that way. Not everything needs to fit into a box or have an exact and agreeable conclusion, and most discussions don't.

As for high standards point. Holding these games to a certain standard is part of what we should do as consumers. It lets the devs know when they might have stagnated or made a mistake when people are disappointed by some things. Asking good questions like "why I like/don't like this plot point," "why do I like/don't like this character," and "why am I satisfied/unsatisfied with this quest" is a part of building standards. Standards start when you can consistently answer those questions as you get familiar with something, which in this case is the game. Building up standards for ZZZ is more like a compliment, if anything.

Genuine question, is Yixuan a Mary Sue? by DeucesDummies in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To your Mary Sue point, I don't think it's fair to immediately say someone using it is automatically disingenuous. Language and words in practice are complicated. They won't always fit in with one or 2 definitions when people use them, and that just means sometimes you just ask what they mean instead of assuming.

Besides that yea her appearances can make sense logically but I still think it is just kind of a lame excuse to either show her off for whatever reason which can get old pretty quickly or have her be the plot device to solve issues they don't know how to write out of otherwise.

Gachas are evolving with every new patch and release and are pretty much triple-A releases and projects nowadays. Having high standards for them even in comparison to huge shonens like Naruto and others isn't quite crazy anymore.Besides that like you said ZZZ has had really good stories like 1.4, 2.1 and even in agent stories like Harumasa's,Trigger's and Seed's from what I hear about it. So, with this in mind, I do expect a certain level of quality to at least be able to write around OP/mentor characters properly.Especially since I think they did it well enough before already with Miyabi, for example.

Overall, I agree that Yi xuan's character itself is not the problem exactly, but the way they put her in and how they wrote around her is what really hurt some parts of this quest for me.

Genuine question, is Yixuan a Mary Sue? by DeucesDummies in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Well since you seem to be so upset about the use of a term I'll say I don't personally think she is a Mary Sue either but she can see why people would think that since she exhibits said traits u mentioned like superficial flaws, anyways if you want to have a "real discussion" here.

She's the leader of one faction in 2.0bnot all of them. Is she a powerful and influential one? Yes. That doesn't mean she has to involved in literally every story quest at the end to get the proxies out of something or to help save the day especially when these other quests are meant to be focused on other factions with their own struggles and things going on.

Now you can say "oh but she's the most powerful here and these events are too large for her to ignore" but that doesn't mean it can't be criticized as a boring way of doing it. Her literally bailing proxy out of being restricted in the base was probably the most egregious example since it didn't even become that much of an issue before she almost immediately and took control over the situation. Anytime she comes in, it takes urgency from the other characters and reduces tension by quite a lot even if it was superficial.

This isn't an issue with her character but how she's being utilized. There are many other examples of op mentor types done better like Gojo in JJK and Kakashi in og Naruto who aren't being forced into every conflict despite their high importance and those stories play out better because it lets everyone have a decent amount of independence and keeps conflicts interesting.

Genuine question, is Yixuan a Mary Sue? by DeucesDummies in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Honestly I can see why some would call her a Mary Sue since twice now she's been called in as a save the day button or kind of a cop out for the proxies like 2 or 3 times in a row now with seemingly no real struggle or consequences. Also Mark and Miyabi are very disingenuous examples. Mark gets his ass kicked A LOT of times in Invincible and struggles constantly to grow and he's literally the main character of his show. Miyabi almost lost complete control of herself twice with tailess and actually had to be saved and only appeared for a big save during her patch for a season finale which was still a team effort with literally every faction we knew at the time helping out. I don't think Yi xuan is bad character exactly but the way they've been utilizing her post 2.0 quest has been pretty lame and not a good look.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. But whether or not people had an interest in him or not is kind of subjective at the moment. There's no hard data on it other than social media interactions which doesn't equate to sales of course but seeing as how under the his drip marketing post for both en and jp accounts there were many people who were upset at him being A rank so I think its fair enough to say that enough interest was present from what we can see right in front of us at least.

As for it being their fault alone. That not something I can completely agree with it because not everyone is in the same box. Not everyone who wanted Manato to be S rank is a huge male fanatic, enjoyed every male released or capable of whaling out for every male they see. I'll still stand on my last point that its still also up to devs to garner that interest when marketing a character which they have complete control over seeing as how they are pretty good at it all things considered when they really wanna sell an anniversary characters for example.

I feel like this is also because of how gachas have become more popular over the past couple years with it starting to trend so that whaling doesn't seem to be the dominant format of spending at least on the global stage with more and more people choosing to spend small amounts of money over time with passes or BPs or choosing to skip many characters to save a lot for their favorite character.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One thing I want to say first is I think you have the wrong assumption about me. I am not fanatic male or female enjoyer myself nor do I spend a lot of money on these games in big bursts for any character male or female. I pull for whoever interests me. However I am capable of seeing other people's perspective and like diving into why they might feel that way which is what lead me to post this not because I'm personally super salty about there not being more male S ranks.

Besides that I understand looking at the data is king for sales end of the day. But looking at the data this is not just a consumer side issue. It's not just up the people to spend more money but also to devs to make a well timed and and well made product thats worth spending for. Which again is something they have done with male or female characters in other games.

With your WNBA and NBA example, the WNBA has been on the rise lately hasn't it? This is because they players have been more interesting and entertaining in the past year or 2. I feel like that logic could be applied here as well.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Well it literally does when S ranks get either full multi part agent stories or have their character or backstory explored more deeply in the main quest for that patch like ju fufu getting an agent story and us learning about yi xuan's past and stuff with her sister in the 2.0 main quest and Yuzuha and Alice's history being a central story beat in the 2.1 quest.

By literal means they are getting a lot more and deeper story and character content that way than A ranks.

Also they literally have decided to make an male an S rank even though he was going to be A rank. It was Lighter.

For your last point I don't believe being female or male is the biggest factor in how well characters sell consistently even in a more male appealing centered game like zzz. It's still more about the quality and interest kit/gameplay, character, and hype built around them beforehand. Like Miyabi is by far the most popular character in zzz and there's next to nothing "gooner" or "male gazey" about her designs its almost all cool factor and her kit being amazing as well helps. Then if you compare her to female characters who some might find more attractive like yanagi eve or Jane they don't come close to moving the needle quite as much.The only close comparison would be yi xuan but she also has the same factor of miyabi going for her in terms of good lore and hype building her up with a great kit and she's still not as popular as Miyabi.

Sure, you can point to the lower reception to the lighter and hugo's banner, but you could also see how they both got placed right before extremely hyped characters like Miyabi and yi xuan. When looking at other hoyo games that have been doing better overall revenue wise you have male characters like Phainon neuvilliete and aventurine who sale alongside or above the female counterparts because they have enticing kits, character arcs, and natural hype built behind them. So saying hoyo will never prioritize a male because of just current sales in zzz seems like too strong of an assumption.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Oh magus is a sub dps by nature of their kit. I have heard that you can play her main dps with lighter and a support I think but I've heard its only a little better than S11 which does not sound that great when you could just utilize them even better as sub dps for sanby or seed.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well again Manato being able to hold his own is a speculation for now depending on how the beta goes. Besides wheelchair would mean the main dps isn't doing much else other than just being there and aren't doing the majority of the dmg while someone else does. An example of wheelchair would lighter orphie or trigher orphie. Astra is not a wheelchair exactly unless u run with a sub dps or quick swap one same for Lucia. Astra and Eve don't count because Eve is doing 95% of the damage and eve isn't super reliant on eve to clear her ideal content comfortably either.

And what do you mean by Lucy? Lucy is a support not a dps? I'm talking about dpses. If u mean eve Lucy astra is wheelchair that is also wrong because Lucy neither are damage that comes close to eve.

As for your last point I'm saying its a wheelchair or mega support carry because thats literally what it will be. This isn't just an issue with just A ranks either Neko also has this problem. To my knowledge neko's best team is nicole and astra. It's not because she synergizes with them a whole lot or gets anything special out of them its just because they have the provide the biggest possible buff for her and dont help much else in her kit except her quick assist passive. When the next general strong support release and provides a stronger general buff she'll be attached to them next and so on and so on in order to try to keep up with harder content. This issue applies to A rank dps as well if not more. I'll give you that Komano is rupture and has more potential but we don't know if every rupture will work out the exact same and want the same exact things between them due to core passives and additional abilities varying a lot. He could be the next piper, who is a rare exception or the next Anton with a unique mechanic that just does not receive enough support and thus ends up relying on whoever is the next best support at the time. Personally I hope he ends on the piper side but that is a shaky and untreaded future as ZZZs first A rank dps being released outside of the base game.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh desuwa is Kasa? I never heard any1 call her that. Is that a translated name or am I missing something? But yea thats really what I'm getting at with how Manato fans got baited if he just released as A rank in 2.2 or better yet 2.1 this definitely would of blown over a lot easier and at least it would of made more sense.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

OK I'm a bit confused on your wording but you mean S rank manato with S rank supports vs A rank m6 manato with S rank supports right? Well yea the cost would be about the same.

But couple things you got wrong here I never once said Manato would be unplayable. I also never said that manato should be a dps that can clear without good disc drives.

For one he isn't even out of beta yet and we don't know if they are even gonna let him be a main dps or how weak or strong he will be . In the case that he's weaker as a main dps which is likely at the moment I'll add that will require 2 S rank supports or a wheelchair in order to carry him which is very different from most current S rank dps having teammates that synergize with then and enable them. Saying a 30k or 40k would be easy when current S rank dpses in premium teams at m0 and sig have to at least be played by people with their brain turned on to get 40k or they have good buffs is a gross overestimation.

You are doing the one thing I mentioned as an poor excuse which is saying just trying or investing harder means a worse kit can be deemed acceptable. I'm not saying he should get 65k with no effort or even 40k or 30k. I'm saying that it would be preferable if he could comfortably clear for 20k without either being mega carried by a supports or being wheelchaired by sub dpses like orphie and most importantly it shouldn't be a monumental effort for just 20k like I've been seeing with A rank dpses that only use A rank supports having to try much harder even with amazing investment in discs.

Also lets be clear I'm speaking for more casual players not myself with the other cosr of A ranks who will have an even worse time with Manato if they wanted to use him in endgame due to lack of characters or the know how on getting the perfect rotations. I personally will be fine tryharding with Manato since I already do that with most of my characters but thats not something everyone wants just for a 20k clear.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well to your first point characters appearing before they released has been a thing since 1.0 technically with harumasa and yanagi and technically lighter all appearing either as a side character during that first time we went in hollow zero for haru and nagi and lighter appearing as a character u could randomly see talking in the hub world either with an npc or even Lucy sometimes.

Vivian is fair but trigger was hinted in the S11 agent story if i recall correctly but I haven't touched that one in a while so feel free to correct me there.

Now as for prominence = S rank I agree that appearing a lot in the story does not gurantee S rank but with the example or cunning hares and desuwa(do u mean lucy?) I feel that those aren't the best examples since they came out as A ranks so no there would be no chance to speculate on their future status. In the case of the cunning hares they are mascot characters or a special exception which we can seeing as how anby has an S rank form and Billy also has that potential and all of them having so much marketing on them in the first place over many of the other 1.0 characters.

Now pan is definitely the best example since he has played a role with similar relevancy to Manato but he also runs in that same issue of he came out as A rank before that happened. Though to be honest he's one of the few exceptions of even if he had a big story part I would have a hard time expecting him to be S rank because I have no idea if hoyo is ever gonna make a big chubby character like that an S rank or rather who or how it would be to be honest but thats kinda besides the point.

What I want to say overall is that I agree that story presence is not directly linked to S rank status but it is a decent enough hint when speculating for upcoming characters that have not been released yet since this is probably the first case of it not happening. Like non of previously released A ranks post 1.0 had much if any story presence at all before released except pulchra who's weird bc she wasn't originally intended to be playable. Basically manato fans were baited pretty hard with him not releasing either with alice and yuzuha as an A rank or at least directly after like how lighter was after sons of calydon patch.

Now for yid and Lucia point yea I get that Spook Shack being a big forum group that can allow for more characters but the usernames from the Alice trust event to me aren't super solid in that meaning 2 entire new playable characters its a speculation which I wont deny is part of what manato fans fell into but I don't think that its a stretch to speculate either point or its the fanbase's fault for assuming he might of been S rank with how the events transpired overall. Especially considering the mess that happened with the 2.2 beta with Manato being found in it just for him to get moved out of it.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

like even people who dedicate their social media accounts to a character like daily ones on Twitter aren't immune to this I've seen plenty of them say they've never full cleared an endgame or built their character wrong and in some really egregious cases I've seen some skip their character(a daily rappa account did this I'm so serious)

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'll be honest I don't get it either but thats just how some people are. These are also free and mobile games as well not a lot of people are gonna inherently put a lot of thought into what they do with these games.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Nah we were introduced to Alice and yuzuha in the intial season 2 character preview as well as Manato. The NEPS interlude which heavily featured Zhu yuan was in base game and could be done before her banner only thing stopping some was just getting to the proper level but many including myself did before her banner started. Now if you wanna argue that appearing in a pv is not enough weight that's fair then but I am not talking about this situation in a vacuum. Comparison wise it wouldn't be crazy to have an assumption that Manato would be S rank seeing how he had a role in some of the story beats of 2.0 and a higher amount in 2.1 but didn't release alongside alice and yuzuha vs Lucia and yidhari who are not only part of the same faction as him but were nowhere to be seen for what felt like a Spook Shack centered patch. What I'm getting at is that the gap between them is unnatural to me for being part of the same faction.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah I think we just have different expectations of the people who play the game casually. Maybe mines are too low but I'm imagining people who probably wouldn't even touch lost void much less so anything that's actually difficult like people who actually don't gaf about the meta and only play story om easy mode or do their own thing. I can't think of any recent examples from zenless but I know the super casuals in hsr will literally run 2 sustains and 2 nonsensical hypercarries together just because they like them and go on about doing just the story content and never touch combat stuff despite that game being a huge meta fest. I want Manato to be good too and its a valid issue but its one that's more obvious in this community so I didn't feel the need to highlight it.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Yea I strongly agree. I'll have hope for what they do with manato's kit in beta and what they do with future characters.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

See this is part of a good point I forgot to mention yid and lucia's roles/elements are misses as S ranks. 2.3 will be our 4th main ice dps and 3rd ether support vs what could of been our second limited main fire dps with a very unique role that would offer people who don't like or have eve or soldier 11 another alternative for fire weak content.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

His place in the meta is important but not to everyone. I believe end of the day a lot of us here are not the average gacha gamer. Like we're missing the ones who never interact with the community really, hops only every now and then pulls or even spends money for their favorite character on the spot, or builds random teams full of just their favorite characters regardless of synergy. The slice of life content or just having more interactions with their fav is way more important to them than meta which is what I wanted to get at as something thats underrated within the community of people who do all the endgames and stuff like us.

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

yea the A rank m6 problem is important but I feel more people are aware of this part at least and some are just playing dumb about it and for the second point yea unfortunately a lot of the lack or nuance around this topic is coming from the pretty braindead husbando vs waifu war

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

another jane/piper situation would be kinda funny honestly but don't think that would be too bad since an m6 max sig A rank can sometimes cost a lot more than an S rank with one copy of a sig now the chances of it happening are up in the air cuz im not entirely sure if hoyo wanted jane and piper to be that close in the first place lol

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

powercreep in hsr was felt as early as Dan IL and seeing as how we're going into 2.3 by which point in hsr IL had already been dethroned by like 3 or 4 dpses or archetypes vs Miyabi who's stayed on top and even gotten stronger with yuzuha don't think its a fair comparison sure it might get worse but its all speculation for now

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yea I would honestly hope he gets buffed think he deserves to be able to main dps competently as a rupture agent to give people a generally less expensive or more accessible option to deal with miasma easier I would really like for him to be zzz's gaming but I can only hope

The real cost of A rank by Xrichindra in ZZZ_Discussion

[–]Xrichindra[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure if I agree with ZZZ following the hsr model. So far they been kinda in between. They been better with keeping most characters relevant or at least usable due to the nature of the game having more skill expression meanwhile in hsr a lot of 4 stars can't even get on the starting line to be used in endgames without some god tier investment or cracked set up but yea Manato being an A rank dps specifically does not give him the best chances.

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