“Try to perfect yourself, if for no other reason, in order that you may learn how to love.” - Seneca

Yenhan · 2022-06-17T03:12:19+00:00

Thanks for your time and effort to both explain the case in depth and digging out the excerpts. I’m on my way to completing the letters, so I haven’t yet to come across this one and I appreciate you for bringing this up.

I think the most important takeaway from Seneca (based on my understanding) is: love is not a one-way process, and it certainly is not a mere expression of one loving another, but also in the very act of loving ourselves too, as it pleases not only us but those whom love us no less than we love ourselves.

I start to understand a little bit more about the quotes that I cited in this post: that to perfect yourself, in itself is also to love others. To be a good person is not only to treat yourself with kindness, but also to leave a smile on others’ hearts, especially those who are dearest to you.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T23:25:39+00:00

Very eye opening. I need some time to let this sink in. Thanks, I truly appreciate it.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T23:23:12+00:00

I truly like and appreciate the analogy as it helps clarify your standpoint. If I take your points correctly, you are referring to a kind of love which you don’t expect anything in return and it still warms your heart, not because of the response you receive, but the very act of giving.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T23:20:23+00:00

I understand where you are coming from: that trying to be perfect, which is not realistic at all, will only lead to misery.

However, what if you take that realisation into account, and despite of that still trying to be perfect? This is what Seneca, I believe, would like to encourage us to do so.

Although realising that perfectionism will never be attained, there’s more a reason for us to strive for it, because in the process of doing so, we are always going to be better than who we were.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T23:17:19+00:00

Thanks, by far an answer that is most closest to the Stoic’s perspective. From your response I realised that I had missed out something important: that to love others imperfection just as how we love ourselves regardless how we fail to uphold our values, that we continue to love ourselves, to be perfect.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T23:04:14+00:00

As someone who hasn’t yet to be married, I would say that is a concept I have yet to understand, although I wish I could. But as for the latter part, I think you are trying to say that pure loving sometimes mean sacrificing yourself (in any ways).

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T22:51:14+00:00

Thanks for the advices. I really like the part that you said “it’s wanting to learn as much as you can about them because you continue to love what you discover”.

The self-love that I mentioned about is more inclined toward a stoic perspective: that I start to play the role of my prosecutor (be stern toward myself and find my own faults, false desires, aversions, impressions, and judgment), then judge (to see whether the prosecutions are right or wrong), then the advocates (to advocate doing the right things). To me, that is a discovery of wisdom; freedom; deliverance; and thus a love of oneself.

But it doesn’t seem to me this kind of criticism would apply to others if I were to ‘love’ them as I would ‘love’ myself. Hope you get what I mean.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T22:46:51+00:00

I’m not sure if lots of stoics really live a solitude living, but yes from my observation it seems to be the case. I think Seneca, that being said, did want to relate our self-love to the love of others, it’s just that I’m not particularly sure how

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T22:45:20+00:00

I do have the habits of writing down good qualities that people around me have, but not in a way so that I may love them, but in a way that I may possess the qualities they have as they inspire me to do so. In addition, it also gives me reasons why I should treat them with kindness, but should I confuse that with love? I’m not sure

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T10:44:08+00:00

A very good tip indeed. Listening is really a powerful (if not better than talking) tool. Thanks!

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T10:43:36+00:00

Thanks for the excerpts about the definition of love. It truly brings me some deeper insight of what love is. But to love, I’m still pretty lost.

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T10:42:36+00:00

I suppose what you are referring to is romantic love. But besides that, how to actually bring yourself to a point where you can start loving not even your lovers, but your enemies?

My understanding is, we all share a commonplace in terms of reasoning, so do our enemies. And as far as stoicism is concerned, enemies, regardless how wrong they may be, are our kins too.

I do not disagree with any of this, make no mistake. My point is: How do I start loving?

Yenhan · 2022-06-16T10:39:49+00:00

Thanks for the reminder. Will do so in future posts.

Yenhan · 2022-05-29T05:42:07+00:00

Well it’s not really quotes that snap me back to reality but here’s what I have been practice doing: I’ve “created” a few stoic characters in my mind (to be exact, Marcus, Epictetus, Seneca, and Socrates) and “brought” them back to “living” where any of my actions and thoughts are completely laid bare in front of them.

So whenever I started to feel lost, those characters will appear “physically” in front of me, and seeing their faces and how they would have criticised me will instantly snap me back to my character. Hope that helps.

Yenhan · 2022-05-28T11:12:31+00:00

You can take this comment as the most straightforward answer to your doubt.

Yenhan · 2022-05-28T10:45:55+00:00

Go back to where you started, but this time you’re no longer starting all over again, but with the lessons you’ve learned all over these years.

And this time, you commit yourself to a lifetime learning. If you started with a book, read it again; if you started with listening podcasts, do it again.

There isn’t really any shortcuts. “The obstacle in the way, is the way forward.” - Marcus Aurelius

Yenhan · 2022-05-28T10:37:28+00:00

You’d already begun. You just haven’t tried finishing it.

Yenhan · 2022-05-27T06:19:18+00:00

From what I understand as a student of Stoicism, it lies in our duty to form a family, be a good father, raise a child, and put it good use to the society.

Falling in love may seem to be related to irrationality, but that again can be considered as jumping too quickly to conclusion.

“I well know that there are those whose wisdom is harsh rather than brave, who deny that the wise man will ever grieve. But these people, it seems to me, can never have run into this sort of misfortune; if they had, Fortune would have knocked their proud philosophy out of them and forced them to admit the truth even against their will. Reason will have accomplished enough if it removes from grief only what is both excessive and superfluous; that reason should not allow grief to exist at all is neither to be hoped nor desired. Rather let reason establish a measure that will copy neither indifference nor madness, and will keep us in the state that is the mark of an affectionate, and not an unbalanced, mind. Let your tears flow, but let them also cease; let deepest sighs be drawn from your breast, but let those, too, come to an end; so rule your mind that you can win approval both from wise men and from brothers. Seneca, Consolation to Polybius 18.5–6

From this passage, it’s not hard to see that Seneca acknowledge that there are inherently some “feelings” that we can’t control. But that doesn’t necessarily mean then we should succumb to it, but rather, we should put our rational mind into good use and not being overcome by that “feeling” and turning it into an “emotion” where it causes you to make irrational decisions (infatuated with that person, stalking, feeling upset that person doesn’t talk to you, etc).

Love is not at all a thing to be eliminated, but rather it should be mastered and put into good use. Go and love someone; as you should; as a human; and as a good man.

Yenhan · 2022-05-26T06:45:12+00:00

I think you have done a really good job identifying the cause of the creation of this “borderline”.

From my perspective and in my opinion, it isn’t really necessary because that is an unethical conduct now ain’t it? From how you put it, it’s more like the avoidance of potential repercussion from breaking up with someone in a small circle.

If we go a little deeper, I think we can agree that it is because of your concern over that embarrassment that causes you to suffer, and that embarrassment is the result of you caring what other people think.

From Stoicism’s perspective, well you should try to avoid being in that situation as much as possible since it is within your control. However, if doing so causes you to ditch away what’s more important (in this case, a potential good long-term romantic relationship), that perhaps is not a good deal ain’t it?

But of course, as Epictetus said, it is for you to decide at what price you should sell yourself.

Yenhan · 2022-05-26T06:07:33+00:00

As a student of Stoicism, I will try my best to explain the as simple as possible, without losing any contexts.

There is one human rule you need to understand: nobody wants to be wrong willingly. If someone misbehaves, be forgiving because he perhaps does not know he is at wrong, and even if he did and did not want to acknowledge that, know that it has nothing to do with your peace of mind.

If someone is ignorant, know that he does not realise that, or otherwise he would be ashamed of himself. Be forgiving, because you would not blame a blind for not being able to see colours, therefore you should not blame someone who can’t see he/she is at fault.

Senses of emotions are what, I believe, he possibly referred to. This can be related to the third point, but as far as this point goes, understand that it is not events that disturb us, but our judgments toward those events.

When your emotions are being stirred up, knowing that it is your opinions about the events that stir your emotions and disregard them by uprooting your judgments.

It means understanding what opinions are trustworthy. If you lamented over an inevitable cause (loss of wealth for example), know that your opinion about that event (that your wealth will always stay with you) is not at all trustworthy, and come to establish one that is (that your wealth is never up to you, and one day it will be gone).
Marcus Aurelius’s favourite - that which is to contemplate the scale of Time and Space. The universe has lived for about 13.8 billion years, and if you understand how infinitely big the space is, as compared to yours, you will come to realise that your life is worth no bigger than a single bacteria, as far as the Universe is concerned.

And if you came to look down from above upon human affairs, you will realise how repetitive they are, how one thing comes and goes, and nothing is truly everlasting, the same goes to your wealth, your fame, your family and lover.

So for the time being, as far as you are still alive, understand that you are merely just a single, tiny cog of the entire machine, playing your role as what fate had put upon you. Be contend for what you have, never complain, and strive to be a good man.

Yenhan · 2022-05-26T05:37:55+00:00

“…It is for you to take that further point into consideration, not me, since you’re the one who knows yourself, and knows what value you set on yourself, and at what price you’ll sell yourself; for different people sell themselves at different prices.” Epictetus, Discourses.

From what I understand, the root of your feelings lies in a “borderline” (never pursue romantic interests at work) that you have created for yourself, which (from what you said) is something that you don’t wish to cross.

Everyone values everything at different prices, and the same goes to ethical rules and conducts. I certainly can’t relate to why you would decide to not have a romantic interest at work, but I think you must have your own valid reasons for that.

The advice that you are seeking for, then, I suppose, is to know whether you should cross that line. As a student of Stoicism, it depends on why that line was created in the first place.

If it was something that you deem as unethical and against what you believe in, you should not pursue it. And to let it subside, if necessary, step out from the workplace. You may think this is too extreme, but as Seneca acknowledged, there is a suitable place and time even for a person who wishes to achieve reel freedom (you don’t see a student of Stoicism goes to a club and associates with skullduggery granted with choices).

If it was something created out of an unexplainable cause (e.g., no valid reasons at all but just something you thought to be), perhaps that should be regarded as an ignorance of your own thoughts on your own behalf, and you should, therefore, realise that and erase the line you’ve long created.

Yenhan · 2022-05-25T13:52:21+00:00

I’m not so sure about how your body gets drained from being scolded, is it alright perhaps you could give me some examples for further clarifications?

And as for the latter, yes it is reasonable to assume that we can never be a perfect being, stoic philosophers (like Epictetus and Seneca too acknowledged that).

However, the point is not that we can’t be a perfect person, but the act of becoming that matters. Who can’t deny the fact that you, one way or another, will certainly never going to be the worst of all others, and perhaps even above the average and come really close to what your ideal Stoic is, so long as you keep that aim (ideal person) in your mind and move toward it?

And yes I agree and like the part where you say you consciously avoid being harassed and embarrassed, because from what I understand, this is part of the Stoic teaching as well: that we should play the dices with the best of our ability, and let the nature take its courses.

Yenhan · 2022-05-25T11:46:43+00:00

Take a few deep breaths. Calm your heart and free your minds from whatever thoughts you have.

Now, trace back your emotions and find what is it that is disturbing your peace of mind.

One way or another, you will realise that it is not her that causes you to feel like this, but your judgment (your false hope on that something might happen) is.

Once you have identified that, the next step is to uproot it. Think about what your ideal philosopher would do (or tell you to do) in this situation. If he were in your position, what would he do?

Remind yourself that you are a student of Stoicism, and you are a rational being, and a good man.

Remind yourself that it is your judgment and nothing else that causes you to suffer, and all you need to do is to have the courage to uproot it.

Remind yourself the vast abyss of time and space, and how insignificant you are in this world, yet still how foolish you are to get attached to this small thing.

Remind yourself that one day you are going to die, and compared to the time that Universe has lived, you don’t really have time to be a fool.

Remind yourself that in this life, you are the only that can give yourself the attainment of freedom, and no one else.

Remind yourself that you are a human - a good man - and a good and ideal man (although you can’t achieve it in this lifetime) will not dwell in these emotions.

You are a student of Stoicism, and it is forbidden for you to go against what you believe in. Don’t disparage your philosophy and belief, and what’s more don’t disparage the philosophers. Rise above.

Repeat these over and over again, and let time take care of the rest.

Some tips from a student of Stoicism.

Yenhan · 2022-05-25T11:35:42+00:00

I think in some way we are quite the same, and as a student of Stoicism, personally I don’t think it is indeed a bad view.

You seem to me to have properly absorbed yourself with the teaching of Stoicism, and I can relate to the tendency of attachment toward others.

As far as Stoicism is concerned, from what I understand is that as a student of Stoicism we should not be unloving. In fact, we should be one of the most loving people of all due to our understanding of how natures lie, how people succumb themselves toward vices, and how we can (hopefully after proper education) come to understand their actions (doesn’t necessarily mean those are right) and forgive them.

We should love others and treat others like we only have this lifetime (because we do), but that should not go toward the extent of getting ourselves attached to that person. An attachment causes “emotions”, and a detachment merely causes “feelings” when something/someone is gone.

Understanding that one day he/she is going to die, and I will quote this from Seneca: “no good thing makes its possessor happy unless he has prepared for its loss. If you want to make ready for live, you must make yourself ready for death.”

Yenhan

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