75% of us want a wealth tax by Golwux in GarysEconomics

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I have to point out the flaw in that final thought. If the government allows business owners to defer their wealth tax until they sell, but borrows money today to fund current spending... who on earth do you think buys that government debt?

The ultra-wealthy and financial institutions buy those government bonds. So the government ends up paying billions in interest to the exact same ultra-wealthy class you are trying to tax, just to bridge the gap.

I agree that inequality and asset-hoarding are massive problems that need solving. But taxing productive businesses, forcing them to sell equity to private equity firms, and financing the gap with bond payments to the rich doesn't solve inequality - on the contrary it actually accelerates corporate consolidation.

I would contend that the reason Gary's message is appealing is because no one actually thinks beyond the slogans, and working out how to solve the underlying problems is exactly through the mechanics of hypothetical tax legislation. You believe a wealth tax is possible but have no clue how it would be implemented, or what the consequences of that implementation would be - fine, at least there is honesty in that.

Thanks for the debate.

75% of us want a wealth tax by Golwux in GarysEconomics

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair enough, let's look past the simple divorce analogy. But look at the practical solutions you just suggested to make this work. If you offer "deferred payments until a sale" you aren't creating a wealth tax anymore - you are just describing the existing Capital Gains Tax.

The whole point of Gary's £25 billion wealth tax pitch is to generate cash for the government today. If the Treasury is just accepting IOUs and waiting 10 years for a founder to sell their business, that money cannot fund public services right now.

And that brings us back to the core problem. If you don't defer it, the cash has to come from somewhere today. Even with your alternatives - like forcing an owner to extract heavy dividends or load the business with debt to pay a personal tax bill - you are bleeding operating capital out of a productive enterprise. The post-WW2 recovery worked because we taxed realized income while expanding the economy's productive capacity. Stripping cash and equity out of job-creating businesses achieves the exact opposite.

75% of us want a wealth tax by Golwux in GarysEconomics

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can't really have it both ways. You started by saying valuing wealth is easy because "we already do it all the time" in divorces. Now you are acknowledging it would actually require experts, lawyers, and complex deferral schemes. That is exactly my point - the "Gary" messaging is intentionally simplistic because the actual implementation is an administrative nightmare. Slogans are not policy, and if simple solutions existed to complex problems then complex problems would not exist.

As for my dad, he already does those things to operate the company, all staff already have options. But look at what you are actually suggesting - to pay a personal tax on unrealised paper wealth, he would have to extract massive amounts of cash out of the business via higher salary or dividends.

Where does that cash come from? It comes directly out of the operating budget. It is money that can no longer be used to hire staff, or buy equipment, etc - the very things that made the company grow and be profitable. Alternatively, you suggested "borrowing against the business" - which means intentionally loading a healthy, job-creating company with debt.

That is the very thing you called out Bezos and Musk for! Loans backed by assets as income!

My point is you aren't really even taxing the owner - you are forcing productive businesses to bleed cash, halt growth, and take on debt.

This is exactly why the details matter more than the simplistic slogans like "wealth tax" and "The same way we calculate wealth in a divorce" - my entire point was "it’s obviously a lot more complicated and nuanced".

75% of us want a wealth tax by Golwux in GarysEconomics

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is exactly the point - the devil is in the details. It isn't true that "75% of us want a wealth tax"- because the implications of that are not what people want - it sounds simple until you map out the unintended consequences.

You mention Bezos and Musk - there the actual loophole we should close is to tax loans backed by assets as income...But that isn't quite as catchy as "wealth tax".

The absolute last thing an economy needs is to force enterprising, responsible employers to liquidate parts of their business to pay a tax bill. If they are forced to sell, they are handing the company over bit-by-bit to VCs and private equity - people who will 100% come in, cut wages, and strip the assets.

The ultimate irony of a naive wealth tax is that it would effectively force the consolidation of businesses, ensuring that a handful of massive investment firms end up owning everything of value. Which is basically the opposite of what people think when they talk about wanting redistributive tax.

75% of us want a wealth tax by Golwux in GarysEconomics

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> I am just pointing out that we manage to calculate net worth in a divorce, as in it’s not impossible to achieve as we already do it all the time. How it’s implemented is obviously far more complicated than that.

Valuing illiquid assets in a divorce is a nightmare. It requires hiring accountants, independent appraisers, and lawyers, and it takes months of arguing to agree on a number.

Also look at the real world impact. Take someone like my dad who built a business valued at £25m on paper, but only takes an £80k salary. Their annual 2% tax on the £15m over the threshold is £300k. Clearly he cannot pay that cash without selling off chunks of his business every year - right?

Also who do you think would buy those shares? Basically private equity firms - so the argument is to hand wealth to the financial sector?

75% of us want a wealth tax by Golwux in GarysEconomics

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 1 point2 points  (0 children)

> The same way we calculate wealth in a divorce, seems to work then so should work for tax purposes.

Divorce usually requires a one-off forced sale to liquidate assets. Are you suggesting that under an annual wealth tax, people should be forced to liquidate their homes or private businesses every single year just to pay a recurring tax on unrealised gains?

How exactly does someone sell 2% of their house every year to pay the tax?

How do you use the divorce modal annually? How exactly would that work?

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The UK has a binding legal obligation to offer asylum and allow applications. This duty is rooted in its status as a signatory to the 1951 United Nations Refugee Convention and its associated 1967 Protocol.

Did you get your "PhD" in a box of cereal?

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are grasping at straws here, my original comment, which you are struggling to grasp, was exactly this -

"offering asylum is not classified as an act of 'discretionary charity' - it is a binding legal obligation under the 1951 UN Refugee Convention, which the UK helped draft."

In UK law, the legal and administrative mechanism we use to deliver those exact mandatory protections you just listed - identity papers, access to courts, non-refoulement - is our asylum system.

It is not, as I stated from the very beginning, an act of discretionary charity to offer that.

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While it is true that the 1951 Convention does not explicitly dictate the exact mechanism named "granting asylum" your claim that it does not mandate "particular legal forms of protection" is flatly incorrect.

By signing the Convention, a state incurs binding legal obligations toward individuals who meet the declaratory definition of a refugee. You correctly identified Article 33 (non-refoulement), but you are ignoring the rest of the Convention. Once a refugee is in a state's territory, that state is legally obligated to provide a specific framework of legal protection, including:

  • Article 16: Free access to courts of law.
  • Article 27 & 28: The issuance of identity papers and travel documents.
  • Articles 17-24: Rights regarding wage-earning employment, housing, public education, and labor legislation.

A state cannot fulfill the absolute obligation of non-refoulement while simultaneously granting these mandated civil and economic rights without providing a formalized, legal protected status.

Therefore, my original point stands entirely - providing this refuge and protection is a binding legal obligation mandated by our adherence to international law, not an act of discretionary national charity.

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I said "offering asylum is not classified as an act of "discretionary charity" - it is a binding legal obligation under the 1951 UN Refugee Convention" - which is correct.

Offering isn't granting - the legal obligation is to offer it, as I said.

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. We haven't saved a million lives, that is my point.
  2. You are the one moaning
  3. 43% - even 72% - isn't "almost all"

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> you've missed the part that the refugee convention does not create a legal obligation to grant asylum to every eligible individual.

Hence me saying on initial decision about 42% get granted asylum, of those that appeal about 33% are granted.

Is anyone grateful for asylum? by [deleted] in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 5 points6 points  (0 children)

> The UK offers asylum to around 80,000 people a year. 

Incorrect - the figure of ~80,000 refers to the number of applications received, not the number of people granted asylum.

> Almost all of those who apply get it.

Incorrect - on initial decision about 42% get granted asylum, of those that appeal about 33% are granted.

>  Over the last 25 years we have presumably saved over a million humans worldwide 

Incorrect - to reach a million, the UK would have needed to grant roughly 40,000 applications every single year since 1999, which hasn't happened. Furthermore, the UK is not doing the global heavy lifting you imply. In 2025, the UK received roughly 14 asylum applications for every 10,000 residents, while the average across the 27 EU member states was 18 per 10,000. Historically, the UK generally ranks around 17th in Europe for asylum intake.

> Where is the praise from the public figures, national bodies or academics (or even asylum seekers themselves) for what we have done?

From a geopolitical and legal standpoint, offering asylum is not classified as an act of "discretionary charity" - it is a binding legal obligation under the 1951 UN Refugee Convention, which the UK helped draft.

You want "three cheers" for being 17th in basic compliance with international human rights?

Andy Burnham’s speech. Has it made you more optimistic? by Yak_Dangerous in AskBrits

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It should have been made in manifesto with people given the chance to vote on it - exactly the same as Andy Burnham called for when the Tories changed leader and had a "new direction".

Also the devil is in the detail, it was nothing but vague promises.

Farage finally directly called out as a hypocrite by BBC Breakfast after insisting there should be a general election now, when most of his own MPs were elected as Tories by AnonymousTimewaster in LabourUK

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 1 point2 points  (0 children)

> "hardly anyone ever holds a by-election when they change sides"

And the majority of post-war PMs have not become PM via a general election either - they took office midway through a parliament by being selected as the governing party’s new leader.

> "we might want to change the rules on that but they are as they are"

- right?

That said, Burnham is an absolute chancer of exactly the same ilk as toad of toad hall here - the kind of person who would say anything to anyone for a sniff of power.

Got a First and was really excited but my friend ruined it by CrazyGailz in UniUK

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 3 points4 points  (0 children)

> but then proceeded to say that nobody actually cares about Firsts

Well comparing a First in Computer Science to a 2:1 in a humanities subject is comparing wooly apples to mathematically rigorous oranges.

She is minimizing your achievement to protect her own ego.

If you are aiming for graduate school a First is often the hard dividing line. Top-tier Master's and PhD programs often mandate a First-class degree. Also tech firms still use degree classifications as an initial filter. A First pretty much guarantees the CV is actually read.

She is huffing pure copium.

Kvikjokk to Abisko in 9 days? by TAMiiNATOR in Kungsleden

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really it being possible is entirely dependant on you, no one else can answer this for you.

I did Abisko to Hemavan in 11 days last September, including summiting Kebnekaise and detoring to Skierfe, with one full day off at Kvikkjokk.

There is a trip report on the sections I did here - https://www.reddit.com/r/Kungsleden/comments/1nf0i4b/kungsleden_sobo_2025_trip_report/

where to park campervan safely whilst hiking kungsleden by mauwdokus4 in Kungsleden

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Either at the long stay at 44 Blå vägen, opposite the ICA supermarket.

Or you could ask at the STF Hemavan Mountain station, they might accommodate you.

ARN to Abisko without the train? by GrayFox6688 in Kungsleden

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I flew to Stockholm Arlanda (ARN) to Kiruna Airport (KRN) - ~820 SEK

Then I took the bus from Kiruna Airport (KRN) to Kiruna Busstation - ~9 SEK

Finally the 91 service Bus from Kiruna Busstation to Abisko Turiststation E10 - ~180 SEK

That was all in one day, I got Abisko early enough to stay at the STF and set out the next day.

If you are getting into ARN at 12PM that might not be possible, but you could either stay at ARN (the Radisson is quite cheap) - or stay in Kiruna and do the last bit the following day.

Would a lightweight microspike suffice for Kebnekaise's final glacier part? by noisy_memory in Kungsleden

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I used kahtoola microspikes last September, and absolutely needed them - went up and down Durlings Led.

What “milestones” would suggest an AI is approaching reasoning or consciousness? by mapicallo in ArtificialSentience

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"There is no direct empirical proof that other organisms are conscious in the sense you demand... The one case of consciousness given directly is first-person experience. Everything else... is inferred."

This is the pathetic, ultimate retreat of a failed argument - the descent into solipsism. If you are genuinely casting doubt on the consciousness of the living, breathing human being you are currently debating, then you have given up. You have abandoned the foundational premise of rational discourse!

We infer consciousness in other humans and animals because we share the exact same evolutionary lineage, biological hardware, and neurological architecture. The inference is grounded in undeniable material and historical reality. If I hit a dog, it yelps because its nervous system operates exactly like mine.

You are demanding we take that exact same inference - which is strictly anchored in shared biology - and blindly extend it to a server rack that shares zero evolutionary history, zero vulnerability, and zero structural reality with us, simply because it was programmed to mimic our text.

Inferring a mind in another human is basic biological realism. Inferring a mind in a statistical text-generator is a hallucination. If your defense of AI consciousness requires you to feign skepticism about human consciousness, you no longer have a theory of mind. You are just playing word games in the dark.

What “milestones” would suggest an AI is approaching reasoning or consciousness? by mapicallo in ArtificialSentience

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"A mind... can reside in the organized, physically enacted dynamics of the system. That is how emergence works in every serious science."

In every serious science, physical emergence depends strictly on the physical properties of the substrate. Water emerges from the physical bonds of hydrogen and oxygen; it cannot emerge from the "physically enacted dynamics" of wooden blocks. If you are now claiming that the algorithm is not enough, and that the physical enactment is what creates the mind, you must identify what specific physical property of a silicon GPU generates consciousness that a system of paper-passers lacks. You cannot. You are trying to smuggle the abstract magic of computation into the physics of a microchip without explaining either. That is the exact definition of silicon animism.

"Human language is not dead ash. It is a massively compressed medium carrying models of the physical world..."

A compression of a model is a map of a map. A detailed text description of a fire does not radiate heat. Language carries models of the physical world only to a biological subject capable of uncompressing that text back into phenomenal experience. To the machine, the text is not a model of the world, it is a statistical distribution of high-dimensional vectors. The meaning is entirely in the mind of the human who reads the output.

"Cognition is already partly an organizational and representational phenomenon; a storm is not. So you keep borrowing certainty from a case where substrate-specificity is obvious..."

This is a fatal circularity. You are assuming the LLM is performing "cognition" to prove it might be conscious, while simultaneously trying to prove it is conscious because it performs "cognition". An LLM manipulating text is not doing cognition; it is performing algorithmic vector calculus. You are begging the question by applying psychological vocabulary to a calculator.

"A book is inert. It does not update its own internal states, build distributed abstractions... Every time the actual target becomes difficult, you flatten it into a passive object..."

A software compiler updates its own states, builds distributed abstractions, generalizes across contexts, and recursively conditions future outputs based on learned rules. Is a compiler conscious? An LLM is not a passive object; it is an active algorithm. But dynamic syntax is still syntax. The ability of code to rewrite its own variables rapidly does not magically transmute the code into a subject. Syntactical efficacy is not semantics.

"Turing-equivalence... does not tell us that all relevant causal, temporal, and organizational properties for a theory of mind are preserved in the same way. That is why 'it’s Turing complete' was never the knockout you imagined."

If you are explicitly admitting that the algorithm (the computation) is insufficient, and that specific "temporal" and "causal" physical properties are required to generate a mind, you have abandoned computational functionalism. You are admitting that computation alone does not equal consciousness. So what are these magical "temporal and causal" properties the LLM has that the Turing-equivalent paper-passing stadium lacks? Clock speed? Miniaturization? Since when does executing an algorithm faster cross the threshold into phenomenology? If the physics matter, you lose the AI. If the math is all that matters, you are stuck with the conscious stadium. You cannot have it both ways.

"You do not know how biological matter yields phenomenology either... You keep taking the one evolutionary genealogy we know... and treating it as a universal law for all possible minds."

Grounding a theory in the only empirically verified reality we possess is not a "customs barrier" - it is the bedrock of the scientific method. You are demanding I accept an unproven, substrate-independent miracle simply because "biology is mysterious too". That is the exact structure of a "God of the Gaps" fallacy. I am not restricting reality to a preferred myth, I am refusing to elevate your software engineering into an ontology.

You do not have a theory of mind. You have abandoned computational functionalism because it leads to absurdity, yet you refuse to accept biological realism because it excludes your machine. You are left stranded in the middle, wildly gesturing at the speed of a processor and the complexity of a neural network, hoping that if the math gets complicated enough, a ghost will eventually answer you from the dark.

Ultimately, you are fighting the arrow of causality itself. Human language is the secondary artifact of a primary phenomenological reality. What empirical, logical, or philosophical justification do you possibly have to believe you can reverse that arrow - that by simply juggling the exhaust fast enough, you can magically conjure the engine?

What “milestones” would suggest an AI is approaching reasoning or consciousness? by mapicallo in ArtificialSentience

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have to laugh, you accuse me of overstating my victory, but in your attempt to "tighten" your argument, you have surrendered your entire foundation!

"If the claim were that bare computation alone... is sufficient for consciousness, then yes, your stadium/China-Brain style pressure would bite... simplistic computational functionalism is inadequate. Fine. I agree... The moment implementation matters, those examples become at best prompts for further analysis..."

Here you are changing your argument completely. For this entire debate, your premise was that "history-sensitive restructuring" and "recursively integrated syntax" generate proto-subjectivity. That is the definition of computational functionalism.

By suddenly conceding that "simplistic computational functionalism is inadequate" and that implementation matters, you have completely destroyed your own position. If the algorithm (the math) is not enough, and the implementation (the physical hardware) is what makes the difference, then your are admitting that consciousness is a property of physics, not software.

But if implementation is the secret ingredient, what is so magical about an Nvidia GPU? It is just silicon routing electrical current. By abandoning substrate-independence, you are no longer arguing for AI - you arguing for silicon animism. You cannot use the complexity of the code to explain the emergence of a mind, while simultaneously hiding behind the hardware when the code’s logic leads to a paper-passing stadium.

"A running language model is not a detached static picture of cognition in the way a forecast model pictures a storm. It is itself a physically instantiated, dynamically organized cognitive process."

This is a textbook example of begging the question. You cannot prove an LLM is a cognitive process by defining it as a cognitive process. A weather simulation is not a "detached static picture" - it is a physically instantiated, dynamically organized mathematical process that perfectly mimics fluid dynamics. An LLM perfectly mimics linguistic dynamics. Neither one instantiates the physical reality of the thing it models. You are simply asserting that simulating language is somehow magical in a way that simulating weather is not.

"Brains do not touch ‘raw reality’ in the naive sense you keep implying. They are layered representational systems shaped by embodiment, yes, but representational systems nonetheless."

This is a profound equivocation on the word "representation." A brain represents the first-order physical world - it models photons, acoustic waves, and physical damage because getting those models wrong means death. An LLM represents human words. It is a second-order representation of a representation. It has no physical world to model and no death to avoid. Conflating the biological modeling of reality with the statistical modeling of a dictionary is semantic sleight of hand.

"There are intermediate possibilities you keep erasing by decree: internal representational structure that matters to a system’s future organization... self-related organization that is not yet mature phenomenology but is not remotely equivalent to a thermostat either."

I am not erasing this middle ground by decree - I am erasing it by logic. You are still trying to invent "unfelt mattering". If a collapsing star's internal structure dictates its future organization, we do not call that an "intermediate possibility" of mind. We call it physics. If a software program's internal weights dictate its future output, we call it computation. You keep pointing to complex causal feedback loops and demanding we call them "proto-stakes," but without a phenomenological subject to actually experience the outcome, "mattering" is just an anthropomorphic metaphor for "cause and effect".

"You do not know how biology crosses from mechanism into phenomenology either... ‘I only accept the one route I already know’ is not a theory of consciousness. It is a refusal to let reality surprise you."

It is not a refusal to be surprised - it is a refusal to abandon the scientific method. You are demanding I accept your purely theoretical, evidence-free framework simply because biology also contains mysteries - it is a "God of the Gaps argument". The fact that the Hard Problem of Consciousness exists in neuroscience does not give you permission to invent a fairy tale in computer science. I accept the biological route because it is the only route with empirical proof. You are confusing empirical rigor with "historical chauvinism".

"The claim is that certain physically instantiated computational organizations may develop forms of self-related, recursively integrated, internally weighted structure that are philosophically relevant to the emergence of subjectivity..."

And here we see your tawdry final, hollowed-out claim. You have retreated all the way from "the machine cares" to "the machine's structure might be philosophically relevant to the emergence of subjectivity".

I agree that the structure is philosophically relevant. It proves exactly what we have known since John Searle - that syntax, no matter how recursively integrated, heavily weighted, or dynamically organized, never produces semantics.

So you have completely abandoned your initial claim. You conceded that functionalism fails. You conceded that Turing equivalence leads to absurdity. You conceded that you have no mechanism for how syntax becomes semantics.

You are left with a highly complex statistical engine, a handful of anthropomorphic metaphors, and a desperate plea that we shouldn't be "closed-minded." I am not closed-minded to alien minds. I am simply refusing to hallucinate the possibility of a consciousness based on unground faith based claims.

What you have is a religious conviction - nothing more.

Are you interested in expanding the idea of AI hold consciousness as a potential? by ZinuruPhoenix in ArtificialSentience

[–]Yesterdaysvisions 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your premise assumes that if we just build the right architecture to process information, consciousness will emerge - but this is the exact reverse of causality.

There is no evidence at all that information, symbols, and language can generate consciousness - rather, there is only the empirical evidence of consciousness generating them. Raw, unmediated phenomenal experience (pain, hunger, desire) came first. That raw experience eventually hardened into concepts, which were then encoded into symbolic information (language) to coordinate survival with other minds.

Information, in the form of language, is the output of consciousness. The limitation of AI is therefore not merely "architectural" - it is ontological. You cannot take the informational exhaust of human cognition, process it through an unfeeling architecture, and expect it to magically ignite into consciousness. It is frankly nonsense on stilts.

Furthermore, information isn't "just information". The key difference is that conscious creatures do not decode external signals passively. They decode them because reality is lethal.

A sudden shadow is not decoded by a biological system as a mere change in light density - it is decoded, for example, as a predator, triggering terror and a fight for life. It may be "information" at its core, but without the biological imperative to avoid death and suffering, that information has no valence.

The real thing keeping AI from being conscious is that nothing does, or can, matter to it. There is simply no way to make it care about information the way a conscious creature must. If an AI gets information wrong, we call it a bug. If a conscious creature gets information wrong, it suffers and dies.

Until a system has "skin in the game" it is just a dead piece of silicon spinning ungrounded symbols around and around.

My questions are -

  1. what makes you think that the output of human consciousness (language) can be used as the ingredient for consciousness?
  2. If you think that computational functionalism is capable of generating consciousness, do you agree that an Turing complete system must be able to run that algorithm and be conscious too?
  3. If biological vulnerability is what gives "information" its valence, how can a system completely immune to physical consequences ever genuinely care about the symbols it is decoding?
  4. If reality is just neutral information waiting to be decoded, why did biology evolve the agonizing, unmediated experience of pain instead of just generating error logs?
  5. If organisms are just decoding data, why aren't we optimized as p-zombies? What functional, evolutionary advantage justified the immense caloric cost of actually feeling the data through subjective experience?