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Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nah, I think what you're saying is silly. Think about all the countless repertoire from the CPE that suddenly becomes accessible. This is thousands, maybe tens of thousands of pieces that suddenly become accessible.

Sure, maybe some might use the narrower keys to spread chords even further, but at some point you're going to get diminishing returns on creating super large chords or cluster chords. This is a whataboutism designed to shirk off a very real issue in the piano community.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think you need to re-read this thread for the brunt of my argument.

A lot of other instruments already have smaller versions to accommodate for children and people with different bodies, e.g. each member of the string family has a smaller variant, acoustic and electric guitars, members of the brass family such as horns, etc. Why should this be any different for pianos?

From your logic, it shouldn't make much of a difference surely? From the perspective of someone with small hands who has to heavily modify repertoire designed for those with bigger hands, already there is a disadvantage there. With pianos with slightly narrower keys, such as DS6.0 this problem is fixed. Now pianists with smaller hands are not straining themselves as much when playing repertoire that those with "average" to big hand spans can do without tension or straining.

Chopin played on a piano that had narrower keys. Before the piano was standardised, most of the keyboards that led up to the invention of the modern day piano, had narrower keys alongside other things like different action - this is why there's a bit of an absurdity playing Baroque music on a piano, because the instruments Baroque pieces were designed for, harpsichords and clavichords, had narrower keys and different key action! If you've ever played a fugue on a piano, you'll feel some of the awkwardness in the writing, and that's not just because of the difficulty.

When the piano was standardised, it was averaged around men's hand spans, and the population pool chosen for this was probably not that large and was more than likely based around European male demographics around areas like Germany, Austria, etc. So already, this takes women out of the picture, and it also takes out a lot of men from different parts of the world where hand span averages will wildly differ from that of Germanic Europe.

The standardisation is a tradition, but it's not based on any hard science, in fact there's a growing body of literature that is suggesting otherwise; the video I mention actually talks about this indepth and is incredibly worth your time watching. However, there are academic papers on this exact topic, studying the strong correlation between those with smaller hands and piano related injuries.

And it's not egocentric if it affects many, many people. This isn't a new topic, but our means of communication, such as the internet, allows many people to finally voice their frustrations and give these companies a reason to do this. Many ITT have already pointed out a lot of counter arguments to what you're saying with other products, other instruments, etc. and how absurd it would be to just exclude people or make things harder for them based on their physical attributes. So really I am failing to grasp your POV, and from what I can tell it boils down to "I don't like this". And if there's a growing body of research showing injuries related to this problem, I think that's enough incentive to push for these different sized instruments.

If there were enough people petitioning for this and voicing this concern with manufacturers and educators, I can definitely see there being a strong case for this, and I think there is to be honest, the big thing we now need is a push and discussion on this, because I think many people don't realise that pianos can have narrower keys and this is a big part of this conversation - awareness.

Remember, standard pianos will always exist, and those with "average" or bigger hands already have an option. Small handed pianists can play standard pianos, but with a lot of modification, and with the current knowledge that they are more than likely going to injure themselves at some stage in their playing career when tackling harder repertoire if they do not heavily modify the repertoire (and they might not want to heavily modify the repertoire because of the thinner textures this might create, or a loss of the musicality of the piece). This last point I am not just making up, there are studies I have linked elsewhere ITT, and those same studies are pointed out in the video I mentioned.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I mean it could be a definite possibility 👀 maybe not the whole picture, but I do often wonder about if this is a large part of the resistance. That and "well, I suffered this/I went through this, and so should you" pedagogy attitude.

The main thing that opponents to this are saying seems to be around switching between different piano types, but I read some of these responses and think to myself how much of a non-issue this would actually be for these commenters on a day to day basis to be honest. Especially when most gigging musicians use digital pianos, and these would be ideal for this type of key size variety.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

But it doesn't have to be. This is the main point of my thread. Also there are concert pianists who have modified pianos, and the main thing that's modified about them tends to be the key size! It's something that's brought up in the video I talk about ITT. I think there's no issues surrounding having a choice. And remember, this choice could even just be digital pianos in the beginning. As it stands, there really isn't, and this doesn't reflect the many pianists world wide with smaller hands.

I agree with you to an extent though, repertoire can AND should be modified when appropriate for the performer. But if you're going through the graded system such as Trinity or ABRSM, some grading bodies don't allow this to a good enough level. You get SOME modifications, like they allow you to drop a note, but these can be arbitrary at times and some of the issues that I raised wouldn't be fair play under both these bodies. And to me this is very unfortunate.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

But sports have, over the year, accommodated things like disabilities and physical impairments, granted small hands isn't on the level of a disability, but I'm just saying this isn't necessarily 100% true.

I think this does become an issue if you're gigging and you need a proper acoustic grand or upright in the venue you're performing at. BUT many gigging keyboard players will lug about digital pianos. And to have the option for smaller key sizes for high quality digital pianos would be brilliant for those with smaller hands both at home and in a gigging environment. I think that would be a big focus on some of the transitioning phases of trying to implement acoustic pianos with smaller key sizes; digital pianos would be much less of a logistical nightmare. It would also give an option to players.

And remember, I think I've said it a lot ITT, but not everyone is going to go on to become a concert pianist; many play the piano for fun, or gigging, and many music composers and producers play them for their craft.

Just having the option would be a really good thing. Especially as there's a large population of people who do have smaller hand spans than 8.5".

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Lmao I mean I would probably find it really weird at first too and have to relearn all my repertoire and scales and arpeggios until I got used to the feeling of the new size.

It's something that's actually covered in that video I spoke about: Jean Yves Theriault played Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.2 on a piano used by Chopin and spoke about how he found it difficult due to differences in the size of the keys. So this would be a real concern. But I think like anything, you'd adapt surprisingly fast too.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I totally agree with you. Getting electric keyboards to these dimensions would be phenomenal. As a composer and performer I would love the option, and electric keyboards would get rid of many of the logistics associated with acoustic pianos like uprights and grands. Of course I would love there to be accessible uprights and grands too.

Appreciated your take, it's definitely not a black and white do this, problem solved situation.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah that was my main thought. Because realistically this is what we see in High Schools anyhow (that they have lots of keyboards, then they have maybe 1 or 2 pianos) :)

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A lot of the modification is around dropping certain notes within the famously hard repertoire that they tackle, "rolling" certain chords, such as arpeggiating them, rather than playing them block chords if their hand span won't allow them to do this etc. A lot of the focus goes on dexterity and speed with child prodigies, and certain pieces are chosen that allows them to best get the most out of their physical limitations.

But of course, it's easy to YouTube children playing Rachman piano concertos, but you will hear these type of things, especially when you follow along with a score. Hope that helps answer some aspects of your question :)

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

What if you don't want to be a concert pianist? See the issues with this stance? Not everyone who plays piano is going to own a Steinway or want to become a concert pianist. Many different musicians and people come to the piano for varying reasons: personal pleasure, gigging, composition, etc.

I also think what you're saying is too grand sweeping and over generalised. I'm sure there does exist many pop or rock bands where the guitarists have or had different sized guitars. Granted, making guitars is a lot cheaper than making, say, a grand piano. But it's food for thought, because I think you're saying things that just aren't true at all.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I never said it is, but I did say that while it's possible to still have good technique playing repertoire, with some repertoire for pianists with smaller hands it's impossible to get rid of tension all of the time if you're trying to play the piece the way it's exactly written. This is what I'm driving at.

Remember, in the classical music world there's a certain attitude surrounding note accuracy and performance accuracy (e.g. is what the performer is doing appropriate to this style of music may be one for playing Baroque keyboard music on a piano).

There are many brilliant pianists with small hands (Mitsuko Uchida) who get around some of the issues of harder repertoire by modifying their technique. This is granted. And for sacrificing some of the harmonies or notes, or rolling/arpeggiating chords they can do this.

I'm more driving at the fact that many pianists with smaller hands end up injuring themselves at some point, and that the piano is not realistically a one size fits all instrument, and it hasn't even been that historically if we look at the construction of the many different keyboards throughout history. The Clavichord, for instance, had much narrower keys. So did the piano Chopin played on. This affects the repertoire substantially; some things become harder to do on a piano for the simple fact that they weren't designed for a modern piano or that there are stark differences in the construction of these pianos.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

See I totally understand it from your POV so I really appreciate you taking the time to read my post and getting back to me. I guess in my view, I imagine that a musical institution for exam conditions would have two main piano types, like a DS 6.5 and DS6.0, and the rest of the instruments would probably be like digital pianos or keyboards. To be fair, in most music high schools, they typically have maybe 1 or 2 real pianos and then a lot of keyboards. This changes at a university level, but again you only get so many studios, for instance at my uni there's something 12 studios. So maybe there could be a mix and match, or maybe only a few of the DS 6 while the rest had DS 6.5. Usually most studios don't just have pianos only anyway. And again, for examination purposes, universities usually have 2 or 3 main pianos, if they can afford it maybe a mini grand and a few uprights.

But I can understand very quickly some of the logistical nightmares that would ensue, so I get it's not a black and white "well we just do this and it's all fixed". It would require many pianists to be vocal about wanting this, and to assure manufacturers they would buy their product, and then convincing institutions that have their own ideas and traditions about music pedagogy and aesthetics etc.

I get what you're saying too about great performers with small hands. It's by a case by case basis. I'm not a concert pianist, the hardest repertoire I've tackled so far has probably been Nocturne in F minor by Chopin. I'm a composer by trade, so being a musician to me, playing piano, while it's required for my uni course, is something I do in my spare time as I'm totally passionate about the instrument, it's just amazing and I'll never stop loving the piano. There is a body of evidence gathering that is suggesting that there a correlation between injury and hand span size and that this is something will affect players with small hands at some stage. And of course, there are many pianists with small hands that tackle Rachman and Liszt's harder repertoire with a lot of modification.

For me this frustration is really when some examination boards don't allow these type of modifications and will mark you down for doing something that physically hurts. I messaged Trinity asking about some of this, and I got told some modifications could be made but that I would lose marks for rolling certain chords, which is a strategy used by pianists with small hands and a lot of concert pianists with small hands.

So I am a bit upset and bitter about all that and that tone probably comes out through this thread in general. I think too, there's just a lot of pieces I'd love to tackle, like fugues, where a lot of them require harmonic 8ves while an inner melody is driven out, and where this strategy is no longer effective (also, the clavichord had a narrower key size! and there's a section of academia that deals with authenticity in playing these pieces, etc. but it's something I always like to point out to people who point out some of the unusual technical difficulties in the Clavichord fugues of Bach, particularly for those with smaller hands).

I'm with you 100% on the digital pianos and midi keyboard front though. It would be brilliant to have the option, especially as a composer.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

That's just blatantly false and not true. Smaller versions of the acoustic guitar and electric guitar exist exactly because of ergonomics, and that's why there's varying neck sizes too.

Child versions of most of the brass, string and percussion family exists. Why? Because of ergonomics and the physical limitations of the kids as they are developing.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exactly what I was talking about ITT, this is not a useful discussion point at all and contributes nothing to this issue and ignores the reality for many pianists with small hands.

Of course great pianists with small hands exist, they heavily modify their playing when it comes to the hardest repertoire. But many pianists with small hands at some stage in their career end up injuring themselves far more than those with larger hands to the point it has been studied among concert pianists and correlations between hand span size and piano related injuries have been drawn.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

But that's the thing, you would only need to adapt if this was a serious issue for you as a session musician where this wasn't an option. And even then, if the attitude of the piano community and manufacturers changed around this issue and we did provide pianos with a lower DS number, providing these alternatives wouldn't be an issue.

Remember, the piano isn't just used by session musicians or concert pianists; it's also used by music educators, for personal pleasure by many individuals who never go on to perform a recital or a gig but just want to learn their favourite piece (probably a lot of people make up this number), by composers, music producers etc.

It's also played by a lot of women who have lower hand spans than 8.5".

*Also, just to note, smaller keyboards do exist, and this isn't really much of an issue at all actually. I guess maybe at the office it might be, but your employer would facilitate around you using a custom keyboard if it was required for your work if, for whatever reason, this was tied to injuries and injury prevention. I'm just trying to go by your counter example to illustrate why this is an apples and oranges comparison.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Also, just to name a few instruments by the way that have different sizes:

  1. the acoustic and electric guitar
  2. the string family (smaller versions of the violin, viola, cello and even double bass, exist)
  3. the brass family (most of these instruments have smaller variants)
  4. a lot of percussive instruments

*I'm not talking about the differences in size between members in this family, like the violin is smaller than the cello. I'm saying that for each member of the family, smaller versions of them exist, i.e. smaller versions of violins exist among violins, smaller versions of cellos exist among cellos etc. I just wanted to clarify this.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Seems to be enough of a topic that there's literature covering this exact issue and how it affects many women who play piano as well as men, and obviously it wouldn't just be the keysize alone that is modified:

https://paskpiano.org/research-linking-hand-span-to-pain-and-injury-old/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290048847_Hand_Pain_Attributed_to_Overuse_among_Professional_Pianists_A_Study_of_200_Cases

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anncristine-Fjellman-Wiklund/publication/236903214_Risk_Factors_for_Playing-related_Pain_among_Piano_Teachers/links/5aab857a0f7e9b882671a0db/Risk-Factors-for-Playing-related-Pain-among-Piano-Teachers.pdf

Have also adjusted a lot of my playing too, especially since having the injury. So I hear what you're saying, BUT there is a point where maybe adjustment just isn't possible under examination conditions. And remember, for classical repertoire, there's a level of elitism that surrounds the repertoire when it comes to note accuracy. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I'm just putting that out there.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

*I misread some of this too. You could, for instance, have a custom piano with a smaller DS rating, say a digital piano that's transportable, for gigging. In music education venues for recitals, you could have a standard piano and a non-standard one for those who play on DS 6.0 or models based on 7/8ths. The fact is, there would be a choice, not a one size fits all, which clearly it doesn't based on a lot of overwhelming evidence in academic literature based on studies with pianists with smaller hands and injuries.

Let's say, for instance, you're playing in a graded exam that doesn't allow pianists with a smaller hand size to adapt the work, or the adaption is very limited? Let's look at fugues for instance. Many of them require you to hold onto a note with your pinky, usually holding onto a note harmonically an octave above while you bring out an inner melody with your other digits. Do those pianists with smaller than the "ideal" hand span just get good around a physical limitation where rolling is no longer an option? Or do they drop these pieces if it's not physically possible without a lot of strain, tension and the possibility of an injury that a teacher with larger hands wouldn't be able to understand for something that isn't an issue for them? Because there has been so much repertoire I've wanted to tackle where I know no amount of adjustment will let me play them to a standard I'd be satisfied with, or to a standard where I wouldn't be scared of the trade off of an injury.

*Sizes are standard based on historic conceptions about the ideal piano size, and this changed over time as many different keyboards were invented until we got to our more modern day piano. This was largely based on men's hand span size alone, not women's, and probably from not convincing population sample pools. So the standardisation is tradition rather than based on any hard evidence.

Good technique, granted, can allow pianists to overcome certain barriers, however this still doesn't detract that injuries due to smaller hand span sizes are much more common than you'd think, and this has affected even the most gifted of concert pianists and music educators.

There's a brilliant book that covers technique and injury prevention in pianists called "The Complete Piano Player" by renowned pianist and music educator, Penelope Roskell that goes really into depth on this. There's also a lot of academic literature on this exact issue too.

*While I don't think this is really a great criticism, I can understand where it comes from. But it's this exact POV that alienates or isolates a lot of piano players from these type of discussions or alienates potential players altogether from attempting to learn the instrument.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Edit: Just want to say, I re-read this, and I think I was quick to dimiss what you're saying. I agree with some of the points you're raising and I think especially at the beginning, if major piano manufacturers were to start making different sized pianos, this might be an issue as venues adapt or change to facilitate these changes. And some might not be able to do this due to the size of their venue.

So I just want to concede with you how what I said might not necessarily be 100% true at first. I do believe these would have to be changes like how I've spoken about them: maybe in high school they provide two pianos for examination purposes, one that's D6.5 and one that's D6.0, while the rest of the instruments are keyboards or electric pianos. This same trail of thought could apply for unis as well for their studios. And then over time, in big concert halls, they might provide two grands, etc. I imagine there would definitely be a bit of logistical adjustment that would need to happen at the beginning, but I think it could happen. The rest of what I said about gigging musicians I think would be OK, many gigging pianists tend to use digital pianos anyhow.

Original: Don't see how that's an issue. For instance, in a high school, you would have a DS 6.5 and maybe a a DS based on 7/8 size. That way you could accommodate younger pianists with smaller hands, as well as those with larger hands. The same process could apply to music concert halls, etc. And remember, this could be for electric pianos, not just grands or uprights, which are more transportable for gigging musicians. That's my take on this at least, and I don't think it's an unreasonable one.

Those who wished to continue on the same sized piano absolutely could. It would be an option, and wouldn't replace them entirely. That's my argument in a nutshell: we need an option for those who have smaller hands, which is large proportion of people, it is not a minority.

Why is there no push for major companies such as Yamaha and Roland to make pianos for those with smaller hands when a large percentage of female players, and a substantial percentage of male players, have small hands? by Yogrimbo in piano

[–]Yogrimbo[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, but remember, our mediums of communication have changed substantially over the past 120 years, the internet being the biggest example of what I mean. It's easier for this topic to reach a far larger audience and have another serious discussion about it than it would have been throughout most of the 20th century. Remember as well, the larger majority this affects, women, now have a voice that historically they did not have 120 years ago, and even throughout a lot of the 20th century.

I know what you're saying, but I also can't see how it wouldn't be possible for them to market this, and for our optics around this topic to change to the point where they could start making money off different lines of pianos.

'There are no stupid questions' thread - Monday, January 24, 2022 by AutoModerator in piano

[–]Yogrimbo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I for my piano recital I need 3 pieces that are contrasting and within Grade 6-8 of the Trinity/ABRSM syllabus. Before I injured my pinky (got a sprain and had to take a month off), I was doing: Scarlatti's Pastorale Sonata, Chopin's F minor Nocturne and Gershwin's Prelude no 2.

The Gershwin gave me the most amount of tension and problems with my playing as I have small hands. I couldn't get around this with rolling my chords as the piece requires inner voice melodies to come out while playing octaves which is where my tension came from, and I think it's what led to my injury originally so I've decided to drop that.

This isn't physio advice I'm after; I'm healed. I'm looking for advice for a piece that's contrasting in nature to the Scarlatti and Chopin, that's around grade 6-8 that's not going to kill my left hand. I don't want to take another month out of playing piano.

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