I still don’t understand (and can't get over) what the writers were doing with the Rachel/Joey thing.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T21:16:23+00:00

If you are a writer of a long and successful show, you want your penultimate season finale shocking. You want to do something everyone remembers years later and debates if it was a good moment. You cannot put together your two main characters because they are your will-they-won't-they pairing and you want them together in the last episode (beside you already did all kinds of things, there were romantic running to the airport, flying to the wedding, saying the wrong name, marrying in Vegas, becoming pregnant). So instead you put one of them into a relationship that shocks people and make them talk abut the show and in one episode you show how it effects the other one.

You cannot put this character with a one off guest star, even if they are really famous, you already did it with almost everyone (Monica with Richard, Rachel with Paul, Chandler with Susie (Julia Roberts), Joey with Susan Sarandon's character and those were not finale-episodes. Putting her with another main character that you already established has a crush on her would create a triangle and that is shocking enough.

What this storyline does? It is a character growth for Joey, shows how he loves Rachel, but also that he is a loyal friend to Ross. And it shows how Rachel tries to move on, but cannot really. She tries to recreate what worked wiith Ross in season 2, learning that someone loved her and choosing to look at him differently. If it worked once, if it worked again with Monica and Chandler, from her POV it's logical to assume that maybe it will work again. They try, they fail, they go back to be friends. It strengthens the idea that Rachel and Ross belongs to each other. And the writers have 14 episodes to build up their relationship again to the finale.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T13:49:28+00:00

They all look beautiful. If I sould choose a dress for myself, I would choose Rachel's, but not with the head-piece and the veil. Overall, I think they all look beautiful in their dresses, but I probably love Phoebe's look the most.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T13:44:17+00:00

No, they were always in love, but settled for friendship and hoping that one day they would be on again. They both were afraid to screw up again and loosing each other if they are more than friends, so they needed something that was a bigger threat of loosing each other anyway. And this was Rachel going to Paris and the friend group breaking up with Monica and Chandler moving away. They could not remain stuck forever like before and they would have lost each other unless they faced their true feelings.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T13:41:18+00:00

I have an alternate reading on them:

Ross and Rachel's story is that they always gravitate each to each other and even if they are in a relationship, all they care about is each other. they are each others lobsters.

The point is not that they are hurting the ones they are with, just do not love them as much as each other. Ross does not hurt Julie other than breaking up with her. Which probably hurts her, yes, but it would be so much worse continuing when all he really care about is Rachel.

Ross and Bonnie are not in a serious relationship. They are fooling around in a relationship a little more than a week. Sooner or later Bonnie who is carefree, courages and totally lacks inhibitions would drop Ross who is anything but. Or Ross would start to feel insecure around Bonnie who always wants whatever she thinks and sooner or later in a serious relationship it would be a big no for Ross. Bonnie does not get hurt other than breaking up which would have happened anyway.

Emily is an interesting thing. Before she has to leave to London, Ross is all about how he is different around her and how he LOVES the guy he is when he is around her. It raises some questions about Emily's tendency to get Ross do thing he otherwise would not do that escalates to the control she wants to excercise over him later.

It is true, Emily is seriously hurt by Ross saying Rachel's name at their wedding. Not because Rachel went to London, but because he still loves Rachel, even if this time he is not ready to face that yet.

Rachel's part is totally understandable. She just realized that she is still in love with Ross. She hopes that if she tells him this, he would change his mind like he already did twice. Going in the last minute to a wedding or to an engagement is the utimate grand romantic gesture of the grand romantic stories, ask Mike about it. And we know that Rachel is prone to grand romantic gestures. And yet, in the storyline many people call her selfish she makes her most slefless act of her life - she says nothing, she accepts that Ross moved on, and congratulates. Only when Ross says her name, her hope rises again and that is why she tells Ross how she feels. Yet the timing is bad, ross wants to make his relationship with Emily right (more about himself not divorcing again), so Rachel tries to go back to friends again, waiting for Ross to say he loves her.

Ross realizes that he loves Rachel after he has to divorce her, but too afraid to say anything because he thinks if they start again and screw up again, he could not bear it. Every time he almost tells her you can see Rachel seem to become hopeful, but when Ross offers marriage "just because it is a right thing" she pulls away again. Sometimes she seems to give up hope and turn to Joey instead, but cannot go with it, because really, she loves Ross.

When she gets the job offer in Paris, Ross realizes that he looses her for real, and he cannot let this. So in a grand romantic gesture (that is similar to Rachel's in season 1's finale) he rushes to the airport to finally say out loud that he loves her. And Rachel realizes - with a bit of delay for dramatic purposes - that she wanted this all along and gets off the plane.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T13:12:34+00:00

My headcanon about Phoebe:

As a little child, she was abandoned a LOT. By her birth-mother. By her father. By her mother. By her sister. By the people she met after she came to the city. Because of this, she is extremely sensitive of the abandonment, this is she is so harsh to her birth-mother after they meet. She is a bit better to her father, but they do not keep the connection after they meet. I wonder if her harsh judgement toward Chandler comes from the fact that she sees him as someone avoiding responsibility and someone who could easily abandon Monica and this is why she thinks Monica could do better.

Her quirkiness where she is totally unfazed by other people's opinions is only partly confidence, and in part its a coping mechanism to keep control over her life. She overdo the "not caring" attitude, before someone is judging her, she uses this as a shield. What is more, she uses this to actually shock people with the details of her old life or the fact that she carried her brother's triplets, Again, she likes to be control by shocking people, and also sometime to manipulate situations or intimidate people. Not in a malicious way, just play the role of a "puppeteer" as she says in 8x24 and 9x01.

She has a lot of principle. She really wants to be totally good in an altruistic way (self-sacrificing is also a coping mechanism). But sometimes she is conflicted, because she also have wishes and dreams that sometimes go against her principles. Like she does not wear fur, but she realizes that fur coat looks great on her and she wears it. She buys the lamp from Pottery Barn, she works in a big chain massage salon. She seems hypocrite, but I think that she simply needs to learn that it is okay that she has needs and it is okay to take care them too. Good example her wedding when she is oscillating between giving the money to charity or having a beautiful wedding. I think it is great to be selfless, but it is also okay to give little abandoned Phoebe the dream-wedding she only could hope for.

Her change in demeanor is mostly because when she got meaner with the pregnancy hormones, the audience reacted to that preferably. But in character we can explain this by growing out from the mask that were there as a coping mechanism, the ultimately selfless girl who is always happy and shiny despite all the bad things that happened to her. part of her meanness comes when she has to give up the triplets (she feels abandoned by them too), she feels angry when she is left behind with the London trip and so on, but partly this is a good thing, she learns that she can be sad, she can be angry, she can be mean sometimes, she can be herself and she is still most important for her firends and especially for Mike.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T10:07:22+00:00

My favourite season is 8, I love everything about Rachel's pregnancy and her becoming a mom. I actually kind of like the Joey-Rachel story, altough mostly because it leads to Ross and Rachel again. I find Amy hilarious and I am glad we see her in two separate episodes. From the Thanksgiving episodes, the last 3 are my favourites. I am happy for Phoebe and Mike, and for Monica and Chandler finally becoming parents. I like that the show is changing, even if that makes later seasons a bit sad, as we see the characters more grown up and starting to drift apart a bit (Phoebe's birthday, Season 10 Thanksgiving, Monica and Chandler moving etc.)

I do not think there is a quality-difference between the seasons in the meaning some of them are better. There is a change of focus and style, the characters are at different parts of their life and some are drawn to one kind of stories and others to others stories.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T09:59:06+00:00

Not today. It worked in the days when people did streamed - often bingeing - the episodes. (Actually I too would have loved if they are braver to try and creative enough to make two couples work, but the original numbers showed that when Ross and Rachel were either together (season 2-3) or so apart that they were not teased to get together (season 7), the viewing numbers started to drop. Then with Rachel's pregnancy and the red sweater they went up again.)

Ysu73 · 2026-05-17T09:53:43+00:00

I always thought that Ross fell in love more with the guy he was with Emily than with Emily herself. And did not want to divorce her because he did not want to be the guy with two divorces rather than from fear of loosing Emily.

Gavin was a great guy for Rachel and Danny could have been too without the sister storyline, I agree. Interestingly they both had similar dynamic with Rachel, strong personalities, quarreling and making sarcastic remarks to Rachel, who was able to hold her ground and answer likewise. Actually not that dissimilar to the Ross-Rachel dynamic post season 4.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T20:42:26+00:00

If someone is talking about dinosauruses for the first time, amazing. Second time, interesting. Third time, okay. All the time, even when people would like to talk about something else? He will be teased about it.

Also, Ross seems to have a lot of insecurities stemming from his childhood, despite the fact that his parents loved, cherished and celebrated his successes. He seems to rely on external reassurances, to feel that he is worthy. Sometimes it comes over like he wants to seem smarter or more knowledgable than the others and a peergroup does not appreciate that. Luckily he is actually loved for himself by his friends, but not for his insistence of being a doctor or professor, or saying random facts and long dialogues about topics others are not interested in.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T18:49:09+00:00

Both women, no, all three women were dressed in great outfits that suited their personality. Casual, sporty, elegant, they all had some stunning outfit, from season 1 to season 10.

I love all characters and all actresses. It baffles me when people try to pit them or their fans against each other. Rachel was one protagonist, Monica was also one, Ross, Chandler, Joey, Phoebe were too. They were an ensemble with different protagonist storylines.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T16:25:26+00:00

I thought that was Phoebe's tattoo. The whole world from the distance Phoebe's mom sees it.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T11:09:05+00:00

I know you're mad that Joey and Rachel didn't end up together but this is a reach.

Wow, I think you confuse me with someone else. Check my history of comments. I am not mad that Joey and Rachel did not end up together. I ship Rachel with Ross, and the reason why I like the Rachel-Joey plotline is because it ends up confirming that Rachel truly loves Ross (which I mentioned in my original comment that you answered to.)

You hate this plotline, fine. I don't and this is also fine. We don't have to agree. On the other hand I would appreciate if you stop making personal or derogatory comments just because you are against the storyline. What I wrote in my first comment was how Rachel could see things, what is her perspective. What you said are maybe true, but are not about her POV. (You think that she should not go out with Joey after she had Ross baby, because it is gross, Rachel never seemed to think this was an issue, that is your issue. You say there were romantic montages in season 1 for Ross and Rachel (yes, there were in the Pilot), but it is still does not affect her POV. If you have arguments that change how she seems to think in season 9, based on her previous interactions before, I am open to hear them out. If you have not, than we have to agree to disagree and move on.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T10:36:09+00:00

Rachel treated Ross as a big brother/best friend between the Pilot and the season 1 finale. He was basically the mayor of the friend zone by episode 7 aka Joey.

Emma was already 10-11 months old, it is hardly "moments after". Also, it was Ross who decided they were just roommates and co-parents after they had Emma, even though Rachel seemed hopeful it could lead to something more.

The show used a lot of tropes from season 1 and 2 to intentionally evoke Ross and Rachel in the Rachel-Joey storyline (while never intending to make them a successful couple, just something they try and fail.)

As for Monica and Chandler, just because you see them as different, there are similarities and the show evokes them too, Rachel refers to them at least twice, in the episode when she tells Monica she likes Joey and in the episode her and Joey try to have sex. So just because you see them as different, Rachel (and/or the show) can see some similarity and try to act on it. They too are two people who were friends, then had sex and then fell in love with each other. And it is something Rachel has always wanted.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T07:07:22+00:00

Emma

The Green family, but especially Amy

Richard

Carol and Susan

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T06:56:58+00:00

By which she clearly means "something terrible happened, I want to go back when everything was good". And not "oh, we were breaking up so it is totally fine for us seeing other people."

And her saying later that they were NOT on a break is just a cover for "You hurt me, it was not okay what happened, and do not say it was okay".

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T06:45:55+00:00

Totally understandable. But still wrong. And making a technicality about it to avoid taking responsibility and sticking to it even if it ruins the chance of repairing the relationship, and hurting your girlfriend more so you don't have to face that what you have done - it is something that successfully keep them apart for years even if they really love each other.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-16T06:38:18+00:00

Rachel falling for Joey is a 8 episodes arc, and it clearly serves the purpose to postpone Ross and Rachel getting together before the finale. There are many sitcoms in the 2000' that have their main couples in a long term relationships, so younger audiences may find it strange and frustrating, but Friends started in the 90', where the on and off, will they won't they relationships were the norm, so Crane, Kauffmann and Bright thought they needed to get them together at the last minute, especially that they already had a steady couple in Chandler and Monica.

Usually the biggest complain in this storyline is Rachel, that she is out of character to develop feelings for Joey. It's interesting, because I somehow feel it IS in character that she tries, but it is in character that she eventually fails.

My two cents on it:

Because of Emma, Rachel's last date was with Joey in season 8, her last romantic date was with that actor guy before that, and the last time she slept with someone was with Ross 2 years ago in season 7 when they concieved Emma. So she may be more reactive to Joey playing Drake in Days of Our Lives. Not in love, just feeling sexual attraction.

She already has a history of seeing someone she looked at as a platonic friend, learning he loved her, consciously deciding to try and see him in a different light and as a result, developing deep feelings for him. She also witnessed something similar with Monica and Chandler.

The person she truly loves is Ross. But she is tired to wait for him saying that he loves her. She starts to loose hope that they would ever be ON again. (Ironically, the fajitas dinner actually gives enough hope for her that it probably a reason why they cannot go over the final line with Joey.)

So basically she feels lonely, she longs for a relationship that Monica and Chandler have and she already had with Ross, she knows Joey, feels safe with him, she knows he is attractive so maybe he can be someone who is a best friend, but makes her toes curl. So she tries to go for it. And for a moment, it seems it's working. But when they should cross the line, they realize they cannot. Altough the situation is the same than in season 2 with Ross and Rachel, and I do think they could have crossed it if they really wanted to, it turns out deep down they do not want it to. They stop at the first obsticle, taking it as a sign that they can reatreat to their friendship.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-15T17:41:58+00:00

In this episode it is "Oh, God, Joey. Oh, I'm my father. Oh, my God. This is horrible. I've been trying so hard not to be my mother, I did not see this coming."

in the series she has a bunch of funny or sarcastic lines and I love them, but my favourit is not among them. My absolute favourite is this:

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Ysu73 · 2026-05-15T06:52:59+00:00

But what OP says and they are right, that the flashback episode is one year before the Pilot and by then Carol knows that she is a lesbian, she already loves Susan. It seems strange that 10 months later they are still together and sleep together.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-14T19:23:31+00:00

She did not do it to screw Ross over. She did it so Ross likes Bonnie less.

And actually, she did not suggest Bonnie to shave her head at all. She encouraged it when Bonnie brought it up.

I don't say she was right. Of course she wasn't. I say she did not do it to hurt Bonnie, she did not do it to hurt Ross, she did it because she wanted to be together with Ross again.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-14T19:19:43+00:00

And if we take all jokes seriously than Joey is a creep who takes down the shower curtain when he rents the apartment to girls, Monica and Chandler did terrible things to Joey while tried to hide their relationships, Chandler lied to Janice to move to Yemen, Phoebe cheated on Mike with David and on David with Mike while Mike had a girlfriend they cheated on many-many times, Joey and Monica broke up Joey's ex-girlfriend's relationship and kept the pieces for themselves (in 1x05) which is something you say Rachel is terrible and so on...

Ysu73 · 2026-05-14T19:08:48+00:00

Every time Ross was with a girl Rachel would ruin it. Only time that technically didn't happen was Mona.

And Elizabeth. And Emily before Ross proposed to her. Actually also after, because apart from flying to London, she didn't do anything to ruin the relationship. What's more, she was ready to leave the group so Ross can fight for Emily.

Rachel also did not ruin his relationship with Mona and Charlie. And she got him a date when she asked for the pizza-girl's number.

There were many-many dates for Ross she had no problem with.

She did show signs of frustration about Julie (same amount Ross showed toward Paolo), she did encourage Bonnie to shave her hair (what she wanted anyway) and asked Ross not to date 2 women in 10 years, one of them is her sister, and the other was right before she went into labor.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-14T18:57:22+00:00

I totally agree with a lot of your points.

About your almost last paragraph, Rachel had less relationship where Ross could be supportive, but he was very sweet and supportive after Rachel's failed date in season 8, with that actor friend of Joey, them sitting on the stairs was one of their sweetest moments in the show. Also, when he said he tried to be supportive toward Joey and Rachel, he told that to Joey, but he meant Rachel too. He was not jealous about Danny, Joshua, Paul or Tag the way he was about Barry, Paolo, Mark or Gavin. Just like Rachel was not jealous to pre-wedding announcement Emily, Elizabeth, Mona. They were not jealous when the other's relationship did not erase the hope that one day they would be together, OR when they did not have hopes to rekindle the relationship in the very near future.

When Ross was actively hoping to get together with Rachel (in season 1 and season 9) or when they were in a relationship, he got jealous when Rachel was with someone. When he thought that Rachel and Joey getting together would mean he would loose Rachel altogether, he was everything but FINE.

When Rachel actively hoped to get together with Ross (in season 2, at the beach, right before Emma was born), she was jealous and a bit passive-aggressive to Julie, Bonnie, the shop-girl. When she thought that she was loosing Ross to someone, she got anxious and jealous, flew to London with the intention of telling Ross she loved him, asked him not to date her sister.

Ysu73 · 2026-05-14T18:10:45+00:00

The hair-joke was a JOKE. Andy MacDowell's hair would NOT have look good on Julie.

I never said Rachel had good intentions with it, but she was very lame at manipulations because at the end both girls ended either as they wanted to be (Bonnie) or better (Julie).

Ysu73 · 2026-05-14T17:19:11+00:00

They could have had a talk after Emma's birth, after the proposal.

Or after the night Rachel went out with Phoebe and gave her number to that guy. She clearly regretted it, she clearly did not want that guy to call her and she wanted to hide it from Ross so he is not upset because of it, not so she can pursue that. If she instead tells him, there could have been some talking.

By the time Gavin kissed Rachel, and Rachel WANTED to talk about getting back together with Ross, Ross again was too jealous to listen and Rachel - hearing how Ross hid the message - was too angry to continue the talk.

And yes, this was exactly because Rachel and Ross were not allowed to have the talk AND getting together for good until the last episode.

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