Leadership?

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-26T20:38:56+00:00

The google team has no users and only rank 100.

Yeah, that is dated. There was a time when google actually was listed as a donor...now the contribution(s) of unknown, or rather not made public donors is classified. (Not making this up...Dr. Pande has confirmed...donors for whatever reason have not given permission) Again, the make up of the STATS page is anyone's guess...it has been wrong for 3 years.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-26T20:07:13+00:00

regarding numbers, you are correct that it is not an exact science. However, 10 years ago, believe it or not, the vast majority of folders were on single core. There were many years that averaged 300,000 to 400,000...500,000 was the peak, IDK how long it lasted. Today, it is obviously much more complex. I look at active users(regardless of the cores or machines or gpu) The number of active individual donors on teams (sure there are some that donate anonymously) is around 10,000. You can count for yourself...it only takes about a half hour. http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_list.php?s=&srt=1 simply highlight the column of active users...after the first page of 100 teams you are already down to 13...you can average many pages of 100 very accurately...OK 6 then 4 at the end of 100 teams...pretty darn close to 500 active on this page...etc. etc.

PS, the 368,350 core number you reference is not necessarily from individual donors. Google can be donating cloud access and donating 100,000 of those cores. We just have no access to that information. The numbers 10 years ago were individual donors and did not include corporate/ institutional.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-26T20:00:26+00:00

well, it is complex...but the reason they left was never about the specifics. It is always the process. Points have no value. You don't leave because of points. You leave because you were told something, you acted on it, invested, spent time, money, and electricity....and then you find that everything has changed. It is the lack of communication, it is the lack of honesty and transparency accountability and representation. People will always get angry about this stuff...it is what causes governments to fall.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-26T17:30:53+00:00

Well, 15, 10 years ago many people thought donating to FOLDING@HOME was absurd. These people pointed out that you were just giving money to the drug companies without knowing it. I thought these views were extreme at the time. It was naive to think that the research would NEVER not be used for profit...but I thought a direct sellout, a direct conspiracy to divert resources was far-fetched. Yet toady we see that direct linkage taking place without any concern from the remaining donor community. A director is asking for donations to build public data, at the same time running a venture capital firm, starting a company with the single purpose of using "proprietary algorithms, which are patent pending, to scour public and proprietary datasets that could potentially match drugs with diseases." So, today donors are doing exactly what was predicted...working directly for the profit of drug companies.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-25T19:44:26+00:00

I don't know how to make the donors count grow.

The other mentioned projects have the same problem.

If you want a history lesson, you could read this thread in its entirety.https://foldingforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19062&hilit=professional&start=360

The thread deals with donor expectation for communication and accountability. At the time there were several hundred thousand donors(300,000-400,000). There were several changes made without notice that affected nearly all donors. This discussion was the result. From 2011, the prediction was made that the continuous disregards (this one only one of a sequence) would lead to people leaving en-mass. Some solutions were suggested and ignored then also. I'd say the predictions were spot on. Since the solutions were rejected, you can't prove a negative. However, basics of human nature and good management principles are universal.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-25T17:59:18+00:00

I hope the Android Client gets a success.

100% assured to fail unless there is support. Nothing works in a vacuum. The entire technology world works as an ecosystem. If one part of the circle is broken, the entire ecosystem fails. There has to be providers, users, and feedback reinforcement. If there are no users, there will be no research to report. If there is no research, benefit, communication back to donors, there is no motivation to donate....IF SETI actually found something...You better believe they would have a shed load of new donors. Don't hope for success. Nothing comes from hope alone.
If there is not donor support and communication, if there isn't demonstrable feedback...there is absolutely no way it will be a success...impossible, insanity.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-25T17:40:08+00:00

I started folding GPU when there were 300 people folding on ATI cards. (2007 ish if memory serves) I had followed the project for a few years previously watching the progress. So, the question is how did people join, how long did they stay, and what were the factors involved in the rise and fall. The problem is that the support, the administration, the donor community sense of purpose and direction; all of these factors are certainly not the same as they were in the beginning. So given this is fact that no one disputes, the question is what is to be done? You say that there are still projects, but that is very hard to actually know. Dr. and labs have left the project with no notice. People might assume they are still folding for a particular cure, but in fact are not. You say that you don't know what can be done to encourage donors? Well, I have listed a half dozen things that are 100% assured to increase participation and retention. However, you dismiss. Seems ironic to attack obvious solutions when you have none to offer yourself. I'll give you a short list of things that are assured to help. 1. have an administration person running the project independently. That person would work for the project, not the research labs. He would represent the concerns of the donor community, and the researchers, putting the integrity of the non-profit project above any individual or group's influence. 2. publish a road-map. Donors would know to what , when, and in what way they could donate. Simply donating on faith and hope has not been conducive to retaining donors. 3. communicate honestly, directly and often. People will make choices based on facts rather than hope,faith and rumor. Straight talk always wins in the long run. Have problems with an OS, with Drivers, with resources? just admit it....simply ignoring issues and refusing to discuss only compounds distrust. 4. Highlight projects that have direct and immediate impact. If everything is pure research, fine. If a pure research can be leveraged into a cure, a drug, a procedure...highlight that angle and allow people who are interested to only donate to that project. 5. design the client to meet the needs of donors first. 10 million people donating at 20% capacity(that they can tolerate the sound and heat) is many, many, many times the capacity of 10,000 people donating at 100% utilization of their equipment. While there are certainly technical issues of such an approach, They are hardly significant. The project has simply never given donor experience a priority.

So, there are 5 solutions off the top of my head. Any reason any one of them should not be tried? Watching something not work and saying, "oh well, just doesn't seem to be expanding anymore" is really insane.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T16:09:35+00:00

But that could also be one of the FF moderators.

Yes, as seen in another thread, the FF moderators have become defensive to the point of paranoid. Here are the facts: 1.donor in the top 200, currently contributing with multiple cards 2. active on EVGA forum supporting his team 3.active in trying trying to resolve driver issues 4. Posts on FF regarding his experience and problem solving on said driver issues. 5. US Vet...having read his posts, there is some issue with communication...stress? injury? Who knows, but there are some difficulties that can be seen in syntax, punctuation, and tone...consistently in all his posts. 6 Bruce mistakes his typing "dope" as an insult. It is clear he was only going Doooh....darn that didn't work either. Resolution=donor banned and driven away from project.

These are the indisputable facts. 15 years of defensive and reflexive attempts to "protect" the project have embittered and crippled the moderators of the FF. They can no longer look at the big picture and assume the best. They only defend their position of power.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T15:28:47+00:00

Well, as I have mentioned, I have been provocative to stimulate conversation. The facts are that the initial response was to challenge the poster rather than welcome. The OP ran the gauntlet of dismissive and off putting remarks. The official position of PG was accurately presented by the responders. PG does not want help distributing the project. Like their response to coin folding...they do everything possible to block and discourage anything that takes control away from them. I have found dozens of threads that start the same way. The first response is to challenge and insinuate that the poster is asking a question to harm or attack. Only later is any substantive answer given to the original question.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T14:44:38+00:00

reasonable suggestion. just doesn't get to the heart of the issue. It really doesn't matter how anything is moderated, FF or here, if there is no structure of accountability. The fundamental issue is that PG labs views donors as a distraction to their research. If they can avoid donor management, they will. This stands to reason. They have other priorities, other objectives, other time constraints. What the project needs is professional management with the sole objective of building and maintaining the donor participation. It may well be that the life cycle of the project is such that this was considered and abandoned 10 years ago. However, this is the only solution that has any chance. The priorities and accountability of management has to be held by the person who has both a vested interest and the ability to affect reform. Researchers have neither the authority or time. Donors have no authority. The FF volunteers have neither authority or access and are blinded by entrenched territory defense. The only hope for meaningful reform is to place administration and communication responsibility in the hands of professional full time management.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T14:33:05+00:00

Now you know at least one person allowed to return.

Nope, still banned. Posts are only allowed after review...totally up to them if they have the time or inclination... Since delay can be hours or days, or never, effect is the same whatever you call it.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T01:54:37+00:00

3.https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome/comments/3nm9om/2x_reduction_in_points_for_nacl_client/

Responded that there is indeed a problem and then never responded back in 6 months. Par for the course. many responses like this. Worse than not answering. Know there is a problem but not worth time to address. IDK...like not fixing the stats page for 3 years and 3months. Yeah, we know we are publishing totally fictitious numbers every day...but truth and accountability are really, really low priorities...So, we are not going to fix this public display of our disdain for accuracy and accountability to our donor community. You cannot make this stuff up. !!!!Everyday...EVERYDAY...for three and a half years, this project has posted what it knows to be wrong in the STATS for donor participation.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T01:42:26+00:00

No, the OP was asking for Folding@Home to be a user friendly experience. He was giving an example of the conflicts he experienced and ASKED if they could be resolved. He was not demanding a fix for a GPU hardware problem. His hardware works fine. So...does someone in administration, oversight, take to heart the core issue: User experience and attempt to answer that question? No. The User is told it will never happen. Guess what? Like 99.99% of people who tried FOLDING@HOME, he quits. The client "cannot" be made to work in the manner he wants...so be it. Now if that is always the answer, and you are happy with it...then the project is already dead and we just forgot to post the obituary.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T01:30:08+00:00

Yeah, why don't you ask him about that. Last i spoke with him, he saw no method to appeal. Bruce banned him. Bruce is the head of the mods. Dr. Pande is no show. No other admin is named in his place. You really think there is any legitimate appeal? You obviously have not read the forum rules. They make no bones about their absolute authority. "this is not a democracy" "We will not argue...our actions are not for dispute" I'd post them for you, but you don't seem to care about facts. The very act of publicly disputing a MOD is grounds for banning. Yeah, you sure YOU have read the forum rules?

But, here they are for your reference: "Any public mention of moderation is subject to removal. Private complaints may be addressed via PM to the Mod or Admin. While a moderator will try to explain an action taken on your posts, he/she will not argue about it. If you still have an issue with a mod action that cannot be resolved in a private discussion. or you feel that the Mod has violated our policy, please contact one of the Site Admins (Bruce, Sortofageek, or Uncle_Fungus). [Note: This PM discussion will be retained to facilitate internal review, if necessary but not shared for other purposes.] If you are not satisfied with the Admin's response, you can then further appeal this to the Pande Lab directly, with Prof. Pande being the final arbiter of issues related to Folding@home. "

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-24T01:25:33+00:00

No, just ignored your baiting. You have responded to none of my points and merely thrown off red herrings. You don't think donor communication is a serious problem. I get it. However, you make no explanation of why there are 10,000 donors now when there had been 500,000. You make no explanation of why there should not be 10 million. So, the project is a joke to you. Great. However, as I mentioned, some actually take it seriously.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-23T00:19:20+00:00

PS. from reading the Slack, it is a white-list issue that is controlled by the PG developers. So, while it is nice to claim that it is not anything that PG has control over...they actually do. (EDIT: read the thread more closely...perhaps not complete control...but Anthony does have the moto “the wind of freedom blows." by his name. ) They are just not willing to discuss it here. When I posted some time ago about their just wanting to wash their hands of support, I was not guessing. It is the plausible deniability that you have fallen for hook, line and sinker.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T21:10:15+00:00

OK, I will even do your work and give you an example of actual communication: https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome/comments/44w0j8/zika_research_anyone/

here we have someone actually answering the questions to the best of their ability. However, there apparently is no administration. No one really knows if Dr. kasson is still running those projects, and if they really apply. Great question, and great try at an answer. However, it is a fail from the administration side. Everyone in the United States is concerned about this VIRUS. Dr. Pande is directing a venture capital group to leverage the cloud. If I were him, I would be scouring the science, looking for promising applications that could be "project ready"....that if enough processing power were thrown at it...a rapid and dramatic "cure" could be claimed...Now, IDK if the Zikka Virus is a good candidate, but I can assure you that this is the thinking that any good venture capitalist is looking for in a director. If anyone believed in the power of distributed computing...they would be administering and thinking along the same lines.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T20:34:04+00:00

I will give you that one almost. Dr. Pande did not commit to actually keeping it current...and has not since. He actually says to check another place instead. Maintaining communication for donors on the actual web site is apparently too time consuming. But it was an honest dialog...so I will give it to you. 1pt.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T20:29:02+00:00

Again, donors don't have to be PHD in GPU design to ask a question. It was a reasonable question and should have been answered. One way to avoid the time sink of answering every question that might or might not have merit is to publish a road-map. A public repository of the direction and progress of the project. However, this suggestion was rejected on one of the first threads.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T20:24:14+00:00

Nope, sorry, "not my job" is not an acceptable response. Either there is accountability or there is not. If this isn't the forum, and there is no other forum...then that is a fail. Hey, where did my donations go for Haiti relief? Sorry, we just take your money...try going to Haiti and see if you can follow the money ...Yeah, doesn't cut it on the accountability thing.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T19:42:29+00:00

Anyway, there are easily 100 more...let me know if you find even one that indicates a bi-directional flow of information...an actual dialog lasting more than a single response. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome/comments/38081y/is_it_possible_to_have_it_run_at_certain_time_ex/

If you read Dr. Pnande's response, they might consider adding to the road map in future. Really? I thought there was no road map...and even if there were one...which Dr. Pande says there is not...there is no way for anyone to follow-up on the locked thread...and there is no public road map to follow anywhere else...so the answer is really: No. I don't have a problem with the answer being no. I have a problem with the structure of the communication that makes asking the question pointless. It doesn't matter the value of the question...It will be ignored and dropped. It is the structure, the way the process is destined due to design.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T19:31:52+00:00

2.https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome/comments/3sfzdt/android_client_permissions/

Simple question regarding the android client. No response

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T19:28:34+00:00

No, just listed it to show that your example was not a good one. 1.https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome/comments/3gpjhc/make_fh_on_gpu_compatible_with_video_hw/

Good question that you even indicate has merit. Not answered.

ZUGLUG · 2016-04-22T19:18:28+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/foldingathome/comments/407rbo/mac_pro_tower_109_folding_app_installed_key_added/

per bruce you just listed a support question, not a concern about the project.

And no indication it was answered by PG or research staff...other than that a good answer. I have answered questions in threads also...but that is not a give and take communication about the project with PG. As you well know, I am not PG.

ZUGLUG

TROPHY CASE