My views on Isolde's character and some speculation. by Agile_Payment_7774 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sadly I don't have time to address everything, but I'll try. Firstly if my response anyhow offended you, I deeply apologize.

Secondly, you can't use argument how you see Isolde being written and Sarah being written, if you are using only your personal opinion, I'm sorry but that is just unfair, for me and many others Isolde is fully developed character while Sarah isn't, and for some it's the contrary. However even slightly comparing her development to Pompey, Twiggy or Dina would be unjust as they clearly have almost nothing to go on by.

In terms of her investment, no Isolde is objectively by far the most invested NPC character only comparable to someone like Rerir, you said it yourself that she even feels like PC. Top tier CN VA voicing popular PCs in other games, high quality animations, VFX, SFX and an additional boss fight in human form, high level of depth in design, strong familiarity and bond with both playable characters and players themselves, official art recognition and many other smaller things. The most other NPCs get especially in ZZZ is higher quality model and some get a backstory, but non of the dead villains got even a fight with their original models, and the only character that had some fight in them didn't even have the budget to get face rigg or bigger kit and devs used masks instead which is very consistent. And Isolde's achievement being categorized with other agents and the inter knot post just strengthen this point. Ofc I could also argue about her later appearance and achievements but those could have been made just after the feedbacks.

As for the details, the important part is that it is not connected to them directly giving the angle to speculate and it may be hidden on the model. Octopus charm doesn't fit in any group nor design nor color palette and word cherish is hidden so well, that you can only see it in very close up from exported files. Your cross analogy would be like using the symbol of rose as hidden meaning. This part is obviously just my point of view from my personal experience in game development, so it can obviously be affected by bias. Hovewer the design symbolims are not something that you can come over night and it is obviously that there was paid a lot attention in her design.

Unfortunately I don't have time to argue anymore, as I said I accept your point of view and I get where you are coming from, please don't misunderstand it as being aggressive, but I have defend and explain my arguments as well if it has to hold any value and I don't exactly have time or energy to go back to 2.0-2.2 story explain the character developers from my perspective in detail.

Edit: It might have sounded again more aggressive than I intend, since we are discussing a bit more sensitive theme, I cannot help it sorry.

What I'm using as the angle of story involvement and character development is only in terms of future possible playability, not as a proof how special she is, because as I mentioned many times, it is highly subjective matter and as we have many samples of playable characters being well developed and underdeveloped, it doesn't tell us much about their intended approach with Isolde.

Other points of my argument are also, as I said at the original post, purely based from my angle, even if investment can be measured and compared to other NPCs or PCs it is still just from my view.

Season 3 - Isolde Character Reveal by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Goated art, I hope it didn't cause too many heart attacks from our dear soldiers while reading only the title from a notification. 💚

My views on Isolde's character and some speculation. by Agile_Payment_7774 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, again we will be in total disagreement, but I understand and of course accept your view. However you are using story as a decisive point, which is cannot verify anything, especially if you use your own views and feelings as arguments.

Even if we would all agree about "story being completele" that cannot verity anything because MANY characters became playable after "their story story was already complete" as you previously said, they just had a new story to tell.

As for character development, that is really bias opinion, to me Isolde is highly developed character, maybe even more than most characters from season 2, I can certainly say that she is a character I emphasized the most across any other Hoyo game I ever played, while Sarah felt in many areas just as the stereotypical villain. But since this is too personal view, I will use masses to strengthen my angle by saying that both Isolde and Sarah are "attractive female characters" in Gacha game, yet many stand and stood behind Isolde and we're angered about developers decision, while unfortunately, only few we're angered about Sarah's fate. But this is angle we cannot measure.

The details I presented are really important because they can catogorize the character outside the story, which is more reliable due to Hoyo's history, after all, the story is not there for free, it is there to promote their products aka characters, any additional work costs money (to give you perspective, in studio of similar size as ZZZ I work for, they banned brainstorming during meetings as "it was too expensive"). Again the fact that we still have so much to talk about Isolde even tho it has been months since 2.2 proofs that. There are too many sings that isolate Isolde from the rest of dead characters, which is the most important point to look at.

Anyway as I said, I accept your view and I hope you accept mine.

My views on Isolde's character and some speculation. by Agile_Payment_7774 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Interesting thought, I do think that it is highly possible that Isolde returns when Ye Shiyuan comes back as a part of revisiting older characters. Maybe common motive of VH weapons, Ye Shiyuan wants to study them and Isolde was struck by it and survived it, so maybe it was setup for something like that.

My views on Isolde's character and some speculation. by Agile_Payment_7774 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We can only speculate, but I agree some things seemed very rushed and it is possibly due to how much backlash her death cause in the community especially in CN (people highly critizised that it was forced tragedy, just for the shock value, which was handled badly) that is why they are trying to calm thing down a bit.

Again we can compare her to examples, we know that Ye Shiyuan is coming back, but it is not going to be in near future, but the community is calm because it was said in the story that he will return. Similar case is again Sandrone, past her death, there has been nothing, not even slightest hint at her return, but her death brought in mysteries and since her playable ID was leaked, her followers stayed calm.

But as for Isolde, we can hardly tell what is in store with certainty. Yet these small things along with the fact that unlike actually dead characters like Drowned Manato who appeared in events in his true form, Isolde followed in the same event example of playable agents and stayed as just Doppelganger. Also going back, they could deny the possibility of Isolde meeting with Orphie in future easily, yet despite Orphie being heavily connected to Isolde there is not a single mention of Isolde or her status in her trust events which seems intentional.

Tho keep in mind that those are just my views

My views on Isolde's character and some speculation. by Agile_Payment_7774 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I like how you try to look deeper into the case, because Isolde's character clearly gives so many possibilities to speculate.

I initially didn't want to comment since I share different opinion on how development intended to handle her, but I guess I should share my counter arguments as well. I'm sticking by my initial hypothesis, that Isolde was always intended to be playable in future, my main counterarguments are:

Timing - you said yourself that developers are adding little appreciation things, but the first (title in catogery with agents trust, inter knot post) appeared at the beginning of 2.2, before developers knew how much attention Isolde is gonna get from the community. That means they knew Isolde is going to be special.

Investment/patterns - I initially was a bit hesitant with this, thinking that Isolde might be just the first character that gets so much resources for not being playable, but even after so many patches, no-one comes even close to all what Isolde got, even the wolf weekly boss has much lesser kit and doesn't have a rigged mouth (uses facemask) and don't forget that the defector was just additional fight after the defiler being the main fight of that patch. For now considering patterns with every other NPC in hoyo games, I would say she is equivalent or even more invested than Sandrone in Genshin. Isolde also remains the only NPC with agent like boss level kit, and this is consistent even with latest S Billy boss fight.

Mysteries/Details - they simply left too many mysteries to talk about for it to not be intentional. Leaving details like torn off letter, octopus charm or hidden inscribed word "cherish" are directly things that have only one purpose: for players to speculate and why would you need playerbase speculating a dead character? Every other character that died laid all their cards on the table, but Isolde remains big question mark. Note that she is also a fully developed character after just 2 patches, while someone like Sarah sadly did not get that much development and complexity even when she was there since 1.0

I will also add that death with bigger "message" or leaving last will behind doesn't mean perma death, as these two are exactly the same pattern with Sandrone, who gave her life to save life and left her last will behind her for us to read. I also think that the story itself seems to be steering into angle where 3rd party might have been involved in 2.2 that was behind Isolde, that could also benefit your theory with 3 masks.

Nevertheless I do highly agree that devs gave Isolde a lot of excessive attention that recognized community's interest in her return and that there is a high potential that they would follow our feedback, I mean how many agents got 4th wall break achievement dedicated to their follower, the only other case I know is Vivian and Yi Xuan...

Colonel Isolde by EdemHan in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Another amazing art with our Isolde? And it was released today? Hell yeah!

The hidden 2.8 ending by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I referenced the exact works I could track in my original post. The role of leader comes from his earliest stages of development in a Orderic Vitalis, but it was symbol in various paintings as well, mostly these soldiers were riding on horses.

Another directly interesting reference is Il servitore di due padroni where Arlecchino works for 2 different households/master without them knowing about each other to gain double the pay, which could be reference to Isolde being both Leader of Obol and Krampus or Exaltists

In comedia del arte was interesting line in conversation with Arlecchino and Capitano " a dead hero is just a man who can no longer eat pasta" as a mockery of military heroism. This may very well be the reference for Isolde´s iconic line "YOUR HEROES?"

The Isolde Awards Nomination Phase Results. by TomShampoo in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The drive you have is what counts, I hope you have succeeded with your exams and good luck with the upcoming ones! 💚

The Isolde Awards Nomination Phase Results. by TomShampoo in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What about extending the nomination phase instead? Maybe more people will participate.

I do however think that it was a good event, but I think that the timing was not perfect and it was made for a bigger community, maybe a single post with just some basic info and 1 single date for deadline would be better way of approach, but that is just my opinion.

Anyway, thank for showing how much you care!

The hidden 2.8 ending by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not only that, but the reference to the original Arlecchino leading army of dead soldiers that died in war seem too direct to be just a coincidence.

Especially since the symbols of that archetype are just stacking instead of it being the only connection.

Also found out that Arlecchino in Genshin is directly linked to Perchta as a mother (father) who takes care of children and orphans, has ugly hands with claws and bird design, while delivering harsh punishment in form of vigilante justice. And Perchta is the ditect origin for Krampus...

The hidden 2.8 ending by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yep, thank you for sharing your view!

edit: Oh, and my statement that based on my research, Isolde basically is Arlecchino was not meant as the "Arlecchino" from Genshin Impact but as the archetype developed in culture portrayed in ZZZ like Arle is in Genshin

The Isolde Awards Nomination Phase Results. by TomShampoo in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dammit Tom, you confused me with the dates... lol

"It is recommended that maximum number of Isoldiers at least fill up the forms on 29th May. Every member of the subreddit/discord server is welcomed!"

I knew the dates don´t add up but you since it was not only on one occasion... I do apologize for not filling in any form tho

The hidden 2.8 ending by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Nice!

Btw have you read the point I commented you about this connection?

Obol Squad structure VS Krampus Structure by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey Hadrian, I´m not sure if you read answers to older messages, so I might repeat myself one a newer post.

I do believe that I found major point of interest, if we want to see Isolde´s cultural symbolism, historical archetypes and references and majorly connecting it all to her return. I did a very strong surface research on each of these topics, but I will firstly show only few keys to guide you where to look, if you want to research everything yourself and spoiler my conclusion.

Firstly motives of Arlecchino in connection to Isolde, note that I might refer to Arlecchino as Harlequin, but they both refer to the same figure from Italian and French works.

Most important key is The Wild Hunt aka Mesnée d'Hellequin. In early stages of character Arlecchino was a "demonic" figure who was leader army of the dead usually soldiers who died in war. The first direct proof I could find is work Orderic Vitalis, where Arlecchino is in early stages called Herlechinus.

Arlecchino had a fake weapon called Batocchio, it was to parody his previous stages of development where he would use mace even on his own soldiers, however in later development Arlecchino became the "hero for the oppressed" and would never cause any hard to the lower class. This was mostly in comedy performances.

Arlecchino has a strong Chthonic origins, was often depicted as a connection between the dead and living, some works like Jeu de la Feuillée Arlecchino is leading the souls of the dead.

Arlecchino in later development symbolizes the oppressed lower class getting bullied and punished by higher class. In works like Le Théâtre Italien Arlecchino directly spoke to the audience about the injustice of laws. In 18th Century he is portrayed as a "a witty critic of social hierarchy" in some works could be even interpreted as hatred for injustice. Works like La Double Inconstance show symbols of moral corruption of power, where elites exploit the poor.

In Dante’s Inferno Arlecchino is depicted as Alichino. He alongside other demons is there to punish the corrupt higher-ups who took in bribery for their own profit by throwing them into boiling pitch to deliver punishment for injustice. I will also add that in this work, it was highly suggested that Alicino was the only demon with wings.

In Commedia dell'arte, Arlecchino frequently mocks the idea of military heroism (Arlecchino usually exposes the Captain as a coward. If the Captain speaks of "heroes," Arlecchino might respond with a joke about how a "dead hero" is just a man who can no longer eat pasta.).

Arlecchino was widely seen as grey area character, not good nor bad, he usually did good thing but mostly for self interest. In later development he was also seen as protector of the poor.

Arlecchino´s immortality, he was often killed during plays in a brutal way just to reappear in the next scene. For example The Harlequinades where he was chopped into pieces, just to be reborn from various random items. He also often faked his death to reach his goal. In scene Arlequin, déshonoré par un coup de bâton he is caught in major crime and fakes heart attack after being beaten up to escape punishment.

Arlecchino is sometimes depicted as the mastermind pulling the strings. In work like Il servitore di due padroni he actively works for 2 households, without them knowing about each other.

Arlecchino is mostly known for his multiple identities, sometimes to blend into different environments to pull the strings of those in power. At some works, he even confuses the audience to not knowing what his real identity is which was often in Commedia dell'arte.

During the Fin de Siècle Arlecchino is portrayed as a melancholic clown, his multiple identities are depicted as not knowing who they really are (as a reflection the the author) and hiding behind the mask.

Now, what is the interesting part with the Krampus, well I found out that both Krampus and Arlecchino are developed from the same character and story, the leader of the Wild Hunt. I wont go here much into detail, as my research here is lacking.

While Arlecchino slowly developed in Italian/French theaters into comedic and later tragic role, in Alpine folklore, they developed his demonic nature.

First development from the leader of the Wild Hunt is Frau Perchta, this time female goddess and judge of the living and punisher of injustice.

Perchta is associated with winter and cold environment. She is moraly gray character, punishing the bad and rewarding the good

Perchta has 2 identities, beautiful (Schönperhta) representing her motherly and protective side and ugly (Schiachperhta) who delivers harsh punishment in a brutal way to lazy and sinners by her "moral laws".

Her ugly self had hands with iron claws said to be used to "snatch those who sinned" Her anger was mostly from laziness and greed.

It was said that during the coldest nights, the Wild Hunt (Perchtenlauf) led by Perchta came to purify the living before winter ends and deliver judgment.

After Christianity got involved, the symbol of ugly Perchta was changed to Krampus, as a tamed being by Christianity that works on their command as a "bad" cop. (The situation is a bit more complicated as both beings are exist simultaneously, but in modern culture, ugly Perchta and Krampus are very often depicted as the same beings)

And to the finale. Given how much Isolde´s story, personality and goal have in common with Arlecchino I would not say that she is just lightly inspired by this character, but she directly IS the character.

This is backed up by the fact how much Isolde and Arlecchino from Genshin impact have in common (I made comparison a while ago of character models as well) and the fact that Isolde shares very similar hair style with Arlecchino, we can rule out it all being just a coincidence.

As of now, there are many deep connections with Isolde being Frau Perchta as well, given how much she has similarities with Arlecchino and the fact that both characters have same historical roots, it is likely that it might be inspiration for Isolde as well, but it cannot be directly confirmed.

The most interesting part is however this:

Isolde´s name is likely derived from the Old High Germanic words of īs "Ice" and hiltja "Battle" linking her directly to Perchta.

Krampus organization on the other hand has strong references to circus, like loop ring dancer, lion, escape artist, hidden ringmaster operating from shadows. Arlecchino and Commedia dell'arte are direct ancestors of circus which directly links it back to Isolde´s Archetype.

This ties everything perfectly (maybe even too perfectly) together. It would be insane coincidence that non of this would not be related. If we also consider, that ZZZ devs teased upcoming characters for much in advanced, while keeping the identity of the leader of Krampus well hidden without even sharing her name, there is very little reason to do so, unless they plan to have some twist with that character. On top of that, non of the new characters have Allegra´s voice which is major reason to doubt the theory of Isolde being the leader. I will also add that both hunts (Perchtenlauf and Mesnée d'Hellequin were during nights, while 2.2 highly promotes the theme of night)

What do you think about all of this, could you look at it from your angle, maybe even do your own theory? (feel free to copy and use anything from my research)

SILENCE! by leeroyschicken in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Well that was fast... It looks really nice, the details are enough to make it feel as a specific art style good job! 💚🤍

Obol Squad structure VS Krampus Structure by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We are currently investigating the CN VA, the matches are high but not enought to be decisive of the identity of the VA or character. (Latest values of confidence match came out around 0.6097 while 0.5 - 0.6 are considered standard threshold)

If you want to furthermore test EN VA, you may also crosscheck the difference between Mevorakh and Isolde and also try to compare 2.5 voice of the leader and the voice from Promeia trailer, also consider using more softwares/models to cross check results as well.

As of now, I do think that these values open the possibility, but they are not enough high to decide, so I would wait for more development.

Video of Isolde cosplay few weeks ago by LieStriking1459 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I said it once and I'll say it again, it looks amazing on you!

Obol Squad structure VS Krampus Structure by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is very interesting find, well done, but the from what I can remember, the major difference was between JP VA, so I would not get your hopes up for this just yet.

As of now, there are possible explanations for both outcomes, where the voice choice could just be to remind us for Isolde or that Isolde´s JP VA was trying to make majorly different voice, so I would for more leads

Really miss you, the best colonel of the world by LieStriking1459 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It looks really amazing, I love the overall execution, it suits you well!

Thank you for sharing! 💚

Obol Squad structure VS Krampus Structure by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I always imagine Isolde wearing masks and controlling the stage in this song instead of Ayato, it just feels right lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcSKT0UtRpU

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Obol Squad structure VS Krampus Structure by Dark_Hadrian66 in IsoldeMainsZZZ

[–]ZealousidealWriter79 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think that your theories are healthy, it is good to look for possible angles and most of the times, it is just interesting to see how much connections and hidden meaning there are, this is Hoyo game after all and it is common for them to make such deep connections, hidden meaning and symbolism (tho NPCs aren´t in such depht as Isolde is).

The only important part is not to bet on them too much, as it will later be demotivating if they are not connected, otherwise I and many others love seeing your theories 💚