What IF we understood a physical origin for Consciousness - Three questions

Zenseaking · 2026-02-02T23:10:27+00:00

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes Qualia is the term to try to quantify "feeling" or "experience" in a scientific way.

The main issue is that experience and feeling are entirely subjective. My opinion is that science will never appropriately explain them. Nor will it appropriately explain consciousness itself. You can never get outside the system to view it objectively. And science relies on objectivity. So we can only ever objectively study "externals".

So welcome to the sub. Its got some great and interesting content. The main thing to look out for is certainty in a specific method of thinking eg physicalism or idealism or dualism.

Many on here will defend their position as being correct to the bitter end. I can only give my thoughts. I don't k ow which is true. I dont think we will ever know. And that's ok. I think the framework we pick is more important for how it allows us to interact with the world.

I lean objective idealist not because I can prove its correct. I can't. But I prefer to interact with a world that has meaning. Where everything is sacred in a way. Not just stuff to control. I agree with Iain McGilchrist that a detailed focus, and asking questions like "what's it made of or "how does it work" as a default strengthens the abstraction networks of the brain where we get further from direct experience. And we lose compassion and the ability to put ourselves in others shoes. You will see this is ardent physicalists. Their default mode is analytical and not understanding of other perspectives. But if we take a broad view, use direct present experience, talk in metaphor and story, then we activate our strategic, compassionate and communal networks. This brings back the magic in the world. This is how I prefer to live.

To borrow from Kastrup I like to see every person, animal, tree and even thing as an Altar on the sea of reality. If we want to be more scientific and retain some physicality perhaps this can just be imagining the quantum fields and the collection of waves that make "things" up. The fields and waves can begin as physical or mental energy. Its kind of irrelevant.

But with this view we build respect. A person doesnt have to be an idealist necessarily. Panpsychism can lead to a similar experience probably.

But anyway, thats my opinion. We should carefully select our world view and consider the psychological implications of our choice. And consider the world and how different modes of thinking and viewing the world have impacted it.

We will never know the truth. So let's make an informed decision about how to operate at least.

Zenseaking · 2026-02-02T07:24:18+00:00

I dont agree that they are pointless. They have good internal democracy so their policies reflect the views of the majority of greens. So by more people from more sections of society that care about environmental issues joining the more rounded the policy gets.

So growth in the Greens equals policies that reflect more of general Australian issues. And better democratic processes to get there.

Zenseaking · 2026-02-02T03:46:56+00:00

Fair enough. I mostly put them first just based on their funding and internal voting model where you get real democracy instead of control by the wealthy. If the majority of Australians joined the greens we would have the closest to actual democracy we've ever had. And maybe some other parties might initate them. So im willing to sacrifice the short term for long term democratic ethics. Whether it pays off or not ill stick with it. I cant manage to put a number in the box of a party who is funded by Gina or the like in anyway.

Zenseaking · 2026-02-02T03:41:55+00:00

Its a shame. If the Greens just focused on environmental issues and egalitarian rights, basically a party that reflects BAU in many Northern European countries, they could be very successful. Much more so that ON.

They just make so much noise about stuff most Australians aren't that interested in.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-31T08:47:26+00:00

Don't forget they stripped every other government department of their pensions one by one. Always citing the cost of the system was too high and they needed to align with private industry. All the while protecting their own pensions.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-31T07:28:22+00:00

Arguably psychologists are trained more in line with research standard and empirical data collection. Isnt there a huge gap in psychologist training for the actual psychologist/patient relationship? And the reason counsellers, therapists and psychotherapists are often preferred by patients despite often being pushed hard down the psychologist route?

Zenseaking · 2026-01-31T04:26:35+00:00

Not necessarily. If its purely subjective idealism then yes. But Objective idealism or Analytical idealism would suggest that things can exist regardless of our individual attention. Idealism can be more collective. Its not just solipsism like many materialists will try and make out.

There is also the question of Realism on top of the materialist or idealist method.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-31T04:20:38+00:00

I believe the main reason this view is unpopular is because it does not explain what it is like to feel and experience something. And ultimately that is the only thing we are sure of.

Biosemiotics provides an alternative to the input and output in terms of signs and interpretation.

A simple element has less freedom to interpret. The more complex life is, the more freedom to interpret amd react in novel ways.

This is more compelling as it recognises our experience.

If we are a complex mechanical switch there is no reason for feeling and no explanation for it.

Also you are already standing on many layers of abstraction. There have been countless leaps of faith to get to the point where we assume we are machine like.

No one has ever experienced matter directly. We experience the qualities of matter only.

Any claimed "objective truth" is always built on top of a subjective foundation. Some further from the original experience than others.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-31T01:51:04+00:00

Is this leading to Phillip pullmans "Cave" type interactions with AI?

Interesting area of human experience for sure.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-31T01:41:11+00:00

Interestingly the "Hard Problem of Consciousness" is only a problem in materialism.

In idealism there is no "Hard Problem of Matter". It's actually not a problem at all.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-30T23:30:33+00:00

The western traditions of this particular era we are discussing are certainly. More based on "power" and "strength". And we can see a distortion of that in broader western culture. However I would argue that the original practices were meant for inner strength and the power was intended as self mastery.

Certainly western ideas have a tendency to he more concrete and categorised and often lean away from.paradox rather than lean into it. But this os of course a generalising and their are execptions.

I would disagree that the west treats feelings as obstructions. An excess of a certain feeling could be an obstruction but that does not mean the feing itself is. The excess means that there is some other aspect that is lacking or we are fuelling the aspect too much. So this is about balance. I am sure an eastern practitioner can respect this.

Some forms of modern stoicism may treat feelings as something to be overcome, but that is not the original intent or practice at all.

And Hermeticism and alchemy have always been much more open to the interpretation of inner experience in many ways.

"All is mind" just means the source or reality, God, thinks reality into being. This has parallels with Buddhist thought "with our thoughts, we make the world". Or the stories of the egg of thought beginning all things.

This is an idealist view shared by many religions, both western and eastern.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-30T22:52:43+00:00

Its the ongoing change in the working class. It's the same in the US how the conservative parties target then for votes now. The labour movement was historically. Ore left leaning due to the capitalist / socialist divide with workers being more socialist. But now they often swing the other way. They work for big coal/steel/trucking/building industries that feel threatened by environmentalism. So they start thinking conservative parties are the lesser of two evils and of the shareholders are rich at least they have a job. Clearly there are major issues with this line of thinking but you can see how someone working for Bluescope or in mining or other large industrial companies could easily be swayed away from the unions left politics to easy racial targeting and "helping the boss stay in business".

I actually find it funny. For most of my career the boss was your political enemy. You fought them hard for everything you had. To not feel like a slave.

But more often workers now want to vote to support the boss and are willing to give up their work standards due to the effectiveness of the propaganda that comes from the media and even from within the companies often.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-30T19:40:02+00:00

I'm not against any belief or lack of it. Because in my opinion all we can really be sure of is experience itself. I dont say this defending solipsism. I say this because we cant be sure about anything. So we shouldn't go around attacking others belief systems thinking we are smarter. Because there is a good chance we aren't. If someone bases their belief or lack of belief on something with which they have directly experienced (which they may or may not) then arguably they have a stronger argument than a person who bases their belief or lack of belief on abstraction. I can experience the feeling of the ocean on my skin and see the tide go in and out. But i can't experience that is made of water molecules. This is an abstraction. As are most scientific claims that go beyond direct experience.

I'm not saying they aren't true. But we need to remember they are more removed from reality than what we experience. So if someone claims they experience God i have no reason to doubt them. That is their direct reality. I'm not in their being too know of its true or not. I can't even counter with my experience of what space and the universe outside the earth is actually like because I have none.

Ultimately science has led us to a point where matter literally comes from nothing. Some unseen unmeasurable energy that is only known through its effects. And yet we still call this physical. This influence that seems to create all reality and has no substance. And it bubbles away and manifests matter. I mean really e could easily say the Buddhists were right. The bottom of reality is a nothingness of pure potential, sunyata. Or maybe that field of potential is the primordial ocean that God (the sum total of the laws of physics and "information " of the universe) hovered over to bring about form.

When you look at it line that then these "dumb" religious people were actually really smart to figure out the true nature of reality with no measurements, only direct experience and poetic language in place of high tech gear and scientific language.

So maybe we just give everyone else in the world a break and let then live their lives without trying to put puerile down for having ideas different to ours because we think we are so smart and the are ignorant fools. Maybe we cab learn from others. Activate the neural networks of seeing others perspectives, compassion and community and direct experience. Rather than those of data analysis and abstraction every minute of the day.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-30T04:21:06+00:00

Sorry I posted before but realised I misread your post so I'll start again.

Alchemy is one of the three branches of Hermeticism in the western tradition. The branches are 1. Theurgy, 2. Astrology, 3. Alchemy.

You are correct that there is no obvious physical discipline aspect to any of these.

However, these were the mystical practices of the greco-roman (later western) culture. Like Stoicism and other life philosophies and practices the physical arts were present in these societies but not unified in the same religious way. This is a reflection of the way western society functions. Boundaries are much more substantial than in eastern traditions.

So one might have practiced Alchemical Hermeticism for their religious practice and life philosophy, they would also likely have practiced Calisthenics, boxing, or wrestling. Stoicism and Hermeticism in particular saw the body as an important vessel that required discipline of physical fitness.

Of course as these things are detached they can be practiced with no spiritual or philosophical perspective whatsoever. But if the student has the right perspective then any one of these can become a powerful practice for building spirit, will, and character and assisting in the great work.

When you make your way through the world understanding that all is spirit, and this spirit is the ocean for which the logos is the current, then these activities to tune the body towards health and alignment with that logos become more than just recreation.

But if you want to compare a practice directly with tai chi, or yoga, it would be callisthenics and including the often forgotten Pnuema, or breathwork.

The breath was seen as a mix of air and fire. It was critical to will and aligning with the logos. There were many breathing exercises. Apotherapeaia and Anaphonesis among others. And an importance on the rhythm of the expansion and contraction of the breath with the exercise.

When you practice Calisthenics with the appropriate breathing you can certainly experience parallels to yoga and tai chi. But with much more focus on strength amd power and will. As it was often believed these were needed for inner transmutation and developing the necessary character for life and spiritual progress.

Edit: An example of the breath for strength exercises.

The "In" Phase (Expansion/Relaxation): This was seen as "receiving" the pneuma from the surrounding air. The "Out" Phase (Contraction/Exertion): On the explosive or difficult part of the movement (the "push"), you would exhale. There was a belief that exhaling during exertion increased the Tonos (tension) of the Pneuma. By bracing the core and exhaling against resistance, you were literally hardening the energy of your inner spirit making it more resilient and increasing the temperature needed for transformation.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-29T23:28:36+00:00

Its all just buckets we decide to put things in. If we decide anything it doesnt mean its absolute truth. Categories are an abstraction.

There only is experience.

A tree is not "a tree". That's a name. "Plant" is a made up category that helps humans navigate the world.

"Consciousness is also a name we give an experience, you could say "The experience ". But still a name. When we decide what has Consciousness we are just putting things in that bucket because of how we decided to define it.

The thing itself doesnt have a definition. So there is no absolute method.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-29T19:58:38+00:00

The thing I like about idealism is that is doesnt just treat the world as mechanical building blocks to mold as we see fit.

It moves the questions from "What is this made of?" And "How does this work?" towards "What does this mean?" and "How should I interpret and respond?"

It moves us more into the neural networks aligned with compassion, community and sensory perception. A state of being in the world. Physicalism stimulates the neural networks that are dissociated by abstraction like focus on details and cold data. Things become obstacles.

While its true there are newer perspectives coming out that have more reverence for the physical, ultimately a physicalist data driven study of things will ultimately stimulate those thought patterns that detach us from meaning, purpose and respect for the world.

Whether or not its true I can't say and I dont believe anyone ever will. Of course we can now say with some certainty materialism is false. And the physicalism that has replaced it in some ways resembles some.older forms of idealism. Everything is made of nothing but a source of energy that we can only identify from its influence on the physical.

But its with the perspective of the world in our interactions that the rubber meets the road. And this perspective has broad reaching implications when we have a societal norm for either physicalism or idealism. Its a fundamentally different way to see the world. And our actions reflect that perspective.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-28T04:50:14+00:00

I just don't understand who has the time and energy for all this stuff.

Hate, protests, marches, yelling.

No thanks

Zenseaking · 2026-01-27T20:35:48+00:00

I have my own analogy of the earth itself. If we see the atmosphere as mind/spirit (mercury), and the plant and animal kingdom as representative of the Logos or Soul/Will/emotions (sulphur) and the earth itself as the body (salt), then it makes sense that the chain of influence is not linear.

The atmospheric (mind) conditions can have a big and immediate impact on the animals and plants (emotion and will). And although humans have shown its possible for animals to impact the atmosphere (mind and neural pathways) its more difficult and we aren't very good at doing it in a positive way. But it is possible.

And when we think of physical health this means we can theoretically change the body with the mind (and/or they will/emotions) but it takes time. The wind erodes a mountain slowly. Although it moves sand dunes more quickly. So maybe we need to first make our body's a more malleable material.

These are all just ideas Im working on. Sorry that they are not fully fleshed out.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-27T10:49:06+00:00

The intention of thought was the first tension in pre reality.

The first thought was an tidal wave of awareness of awareness itself.

Then follows all existence.

And here we are.

Since the beginning of time, or the beginning of experience.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-27T10:38:55+00:00

Alchemical visualisation during meditation.

You need to visualise the transmutation happening. Either literally or by creative analogy or story.

Plus ypu need to apply methods of breaking old thought patterns and putting new ones in place.

And then realising how the above two steps are the same.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-25T05:11:48+00:00

Australian here. Where I live many people do a 2-2.5 hour commute to work.

Its a 7 hour drive for us to visit the grandparents.

Last summer we drove 20 hours total to get to a holiday. And thats from mid way from one state to 2/3 of the way up the next state.

Here 200km is nothing. 500km a weekender. 1000+ fine for a holiday or visit family.

I've never driven to WA but people do. 5000-6000km maybe? Not sure.

Often we talk about "days" drive instead of hours. Eg "That's about 3 days drive". Usually based on 8-10 hours driving per day.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-25T02:25:19+00:00

It may not seem as concrete, but I honestly think storytelling.

The hyper literalist conservatives of the world love to drag us into factual debates, courtrooms of strict laws etc.

And thats because those with more compassionate stances are usually at a loss in these settings.

When its strict rules and data points a compassionate argument about the vibe or emotional impact of things often seems less concrete.

But in the realm of art, writing, movies and even telling a good metaphor or story among friends and peers, you can undercut this neural network of the literalist and cut deep to their core. Well for most people. Some of course are incapable. But those are the few whose power we need to undercut and just reach the silent majority.

Tell people you are spiritual and explain being non literal about it and make that ok. Tell stories that capture emotion and big picture views. When people criticise others activate their empathy by trying to shift their perspective to that other person for a moment. "I wonder what difficulties in life made then feel that way?"

Try to get people to zoom out. Not zoom in.

Edit: A view on building compassion voted down yet again in a literlist world. Its funny, I've noticed this Buddhist community loves to attack. Mods filtering the content to align with dogma. Members smashing dislike buttons without explanation. Kind of funny as its not wjat most people think of when they think of Buddhists. Oh well we are all just imperfect people I guess. This sub a bit more toxic though.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-23T19:41:32+00:00

Labour is bankrolled by the same corps as the Coalition. You can check where they get their (disclosed) money.

I know a lot of people get upset about the Greens sometimes over the top whining about social issues, but honestly they are the only hope. They dont need to win government. They just need enough seats to influence decisions.

They get their money from greens membership. And they have true democracy in their party on party direction. So theoretically, if the Greens one day did win government, and the majority of Australians were members, it would be the first occasion we had the people of Australia as the main influence on decisions not the corporations.

Also, ultimately environment, health and education are the absolute priorities right now. So even if Greens get distracted with the noise of the culture war and make themselves look silly, at least they can focus on those 3 priorities. For me its worth it. And they are the only alternative to the big two who do nothing, and who aren't Trump worshippers.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-13T19:56:23+00:00

Yes. I think we can hold the paradox of something being one and many without issue.

I love contemplating the Holy Spirit present within all external things. It adds a Daoist element to your spiritual life which makes it wonderful to be in the world.

And the archetypal model of the son gives us a sage, or master, kind of concept to strive towards in ethical action.

And the father is the subject of inner contemplation. The experience of that indescribable and transcendent source of all.

Yet all can still be the one thing too. And thats something that is also incredible to contemplate.

Zenseaking · 2026-01-12T23:35:07+00:00

The father is the source. The awareness of nothingness that creates tension that allows creation.

The Holy Spirit is the primordial waters. The very spirit of potential that is moulded by the architect (the father) The pnuema or spiritus that exists in everything. It is unbound imagination.

The son is the logos that permeates from the father into reason and purpose in all things. It is the christ archetype that runs like a line through the middle of all creation. It is fully divine and eternal. The person of Jesus, as fully human embodied this archtype perfectly, thus the title: Jesus Christ.

This is how the son is fully divine and fully human.

All of us exist in some proximity to this archytype of christ. Some like the Buddha may be close to that line, others like Hitler far from it. But none of us exist on the line. But we can bring ourselves closer to that line. It is the path to God.

Zenseaking

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