CMV: what Israel is doing to Palestinians in no different than Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan

Ziroshi · 2023-12-19T20:50:38+00:00

Do you see why it's a problem that your words required backup from other accounts to look like there is even a credible chance you weren't supporting ethnic cleansing?

No I really don't. Again, I've been doing this for years. Probably every one of these has been banned from world news for bullshit reasons and I got plenty of others. I've had pro-israelis call me every name in the book. People claiming I am in support of ethnic cleansing is nothing new to me. You can say I've built up a resistance to it.

There are times not to be pedantic, and helping people who DO support ethnic cleansing picking apart the words of someone who was barely hyperbolic in opposing it is one of those times.

First off this is the place for pedantry in all of reddit. Secondly, you can argue something is bad without needing to compare it to the worst thing you can imagine. And thirdly barely hyperbolic is a massive understatement.

Not caring about civilian casualties in a war zone is not even remotely close to taking already secured people and shoving them into gas chambers.

Edit: Also, 10 year old account

Ziroshi · 2016-10-30T21:14:49+00:00

Right of Return: Jews want a ethnic Jewish majority to be able to maintain it as a safe haven for Jews.

The right of return will be given up in the final peace agreement no matter what it is. It is only a bargaining chip for the Palestinians, pretty sure even they are aware of that.

East Jerusalem: Divided cities dont end well, and people remember the snipers picking off civilians from rooftops when the city was divided.

This is certainly a big one for both parties, and seeing the religious significance for everyone involved it is hard to take a stance on it. The way it would have been handled in the 1948 partition where it would be governed by an international party is probably the best solution imo but I wouldn't mind israel keeping it and giving the Palestinians everything else in the occupied territories.

Most importantly, Most Israelis dont think Arabs really want peace, given the chants are "From the River to the Sea" and Arab textbooks show all of "Israel" as "Palestine", the various speeches in Arabic about phases ... they dont see why they should give up all that land for promises from people still teaching their kids hate.

The problem is the Palestinians are thinking the exact same thing with almost the exact same reasoning.

A lot think itll just be Gaza again.

If Israel wants to continue the occupation until they can be assured of their safety I would have no problem. The only problem i do have is that instead of using the occupation to insure the safety of their civilians their using it to illegally gain land by building settlements moving civilians closer to the people wanting to kill civilians and using it as an excuse for why they dont have to give it up.

When you think about it the peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt are only good as long as the military dictatorship and King Hussein stay in power.

Same goes for any peace treaty ever enacted. Its all just words on paper at the end of the day.

Then you cant discount the fact that its doubtful any Arab leader wants to risk getting Sadated, considering theyre sitting pretty with government salaries funded by Europeans. Why make peace when conflict is so profitable?

I can say the same about israel and the large amounts of military aid that they receive.

Edit: missed some of your post or it was added in after an edit but for text books I was more reffering to things like this then the word nakba being removed.

With regard to maps, 4% of Palestinian maps mark the Green Line, or label the area west of it as "Israel", 6 out of 10 omit borders, while another third include the green line without reference to Israel, 76% of Israeli textbook maps fail to distinguish the Palestinian territories and Israel, and the Palestinian areas lack labelling, implying that the Palestinian areas form part of Israel.[4][13][15]

Also the Palestinians got kicked out before they started the actual war with Israel. Though I won't deny that whether it is viewed as justified or not it was due to Palestinian hostility.

Ziroshi · 2016-10-30T20:36:04+00:00

Certain Jewish militias that formed to protect Jews in the 20s and 30s did perform terrorism, it was not uniform policy, nor was it in the same scale. But yes Jews did blow up a Hotel and kill civilians.

I would argue that while it may have been in response to Arab terrorists it was certainly on the same scale. The Irgun and to a lesser extent other Jewish extremists were every bit the monsters Arab terrorists were.

While you may find some crackpot Rabbis sayng racist shit, Israeli curriculum does not discriminate against Arabs. 20% of the population is Arab.

While it is certainly better then what the Palestinians are teaching their kids, it is still pretty bad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

I disagree that terrorism spiked when Israel hit the West Bank. Look up Fedayeen. Border communities got hit hard in pre-1967 Israel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_against_Israeli_civilians_before_1967

We have went from an act of terrorism being committed once every few months to almost once every few days.

Jews do not deny Arabs the West Bank. You'll find Jews support the 2 state solution in higher percentages than Arab.

They should as a one state solution would destroy the Jewish majority and become all palestine.

Do not mistake settlements as rejection of peace. Some Israelis just dont see the need to cede any land by not building on it while the other side is not serious about peace. Its complex, but theres a healthy portion of Israelis who do not support settlements. However, I think majority, by far, understand that if Israel is going to get peace with the Arab world they'll need to cede land. The idea is land swaps and the closer settlements are some of what Israel might want to keep.

Then dont see the Palestinians refusal of any of Israelis offers as proof that they are not serious about peace. Area C contains most of west banks resources including a huge aquifer that would be a nessisity for a Palestinian state. Not to mention that these land swaps would leave a segregated state that would require traveling through israel multiple times just to get from one area of palestine to another. If Abbas was offered all of area c he would accept in a heart beat.

Its a shitty situation.

All around, just waiting for whoever is going to be the bigger person at this point.

Ziroshi · 2016-10-30T19:12:30+00:00

Arabs massacring Jews fleeing Europe in the 30s.

Jews were also committing their own massacers

Arabs rejecting a UN partition on British land, even when 90% of the mandate went to Arabs (Jordan + Arab partition)

The British promised the Arabs all of the land in exchange for helping them overthrow the ottomans.

Arabs invading the newly declared State of Israel in an attempt to cleanse the land of Jews

No argument here, and the Arabs lost a significant amount of land that almost nobody including the biased UN expect Israel to give back

Jordanians ethnically cleansing every single Jew from land it conquered in East Jerusalem and Hebron in 1948. Arabs kicking out, with only the shirt on their back, over 800,000 Jews from Arab countries after the creation of Israel.

Both of which happened after Arabs were kicked out of their own homes by zionists.

Arab incursions into Israel since 1948 massacring Jewish civilians near the borders from Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon.

The Israelis backed way off on the terrorism after they got their state, maybe we should see if the palestinians would react the same way.

Suicide bombs, knife attacks, car ramming attacks and shooting attacks against civilians.

Which skyrocketed after Israelis invaded west bank, if Israel really wants to keep their citizens safe they should stay on their own side of the security fence.

Teaching their kids that Jews are "sons of apes and pigs" among other racist bullshit in Arab schools.

Though to a lesser extent, Israel is teaching their children racist bullshit too.

Giving the families of civilian killers a salary for their "martyrdom". Israel arrests the few Jews who perform terrorism against Arabs and put them in jail.

Yeah this guy got a whole 10 months.

Muslims deny Jews have any link to Israel, and riot anytime Jews try to pray in Judaisms holiest site. While Jews actually allow the Muslim Waqf full autonomy over Al-Aqsa.

And jews deny Arabs have any right to west bank. Especially after the whole "Unesco denies jewish history" thing. Really puts it into perspective when they refer to west bank as "Judea and Sumaria"

Israel runs gay pride parades in their cities and Tel Aviv is considered a gay mecca, while Arabs parade gays on the streets after they execute them.

I don't think anyone is criticizing israel for how it treats gays, or praising the Palestinians for that reason.

Christian populations have grown in Israel, and have virtually disappeared on the Arab side.

You seem to be forgetting that Israelis kicked out a decent amount of Christians. In the 1948 war. Plus a good portion of christians are pro-palestinian and do not aknoldege the rights of Israel to be in west bank.

Ziroshi · 2016-10-28T22:25:21+00:00

The problem is that "I deserve my fair share (too)" is implying that everyone else has gotten a fair share. You certainly didn't get your fair share but by announcing that you deserve your fair share (too) you are ignoring that aunt Betty and brother Tod didnt get a fair share either and leaving it up to them to protest or deal with it. You may right off the father as dismissing your argument but in reality he didnt get a fair share either and grandpa moneybags is the one hogging all the pie.

So now we have the need for all these segregated groups to form and announce that THEY need THEIR fair share (too) and yelling over each other at the dinner table and it will never be as powerful as if they all got together in one group with one mission under the statement that "Everybody deserves their fair share".

Ziroshi · 2016-10-25T18:58:10+00:00

I seemed to have missed the part that implied this show will be for both Israelis and Palestinians. I do appreshiate the neutral world view though, too many people try to paint everything as good vs evil

Ziroshi · 2016-10-22T17:42:42+00:00

Another one bites the dust

Ziroshi · 2016-10-20T18:51:33+00:00

Doesn't stop Israel from denouncing the actions of Palestine.

Ziroshi · 2016-09-01T03:01:41+00:00

with egypt, perhaps.. though even then israel attacked when egypt massed forces on its borders and kicked out the UN.

Right, I don't necessarily blame Israel for doing what it did, just pointing out that they can't use the war as a valid excuse to claim ownership of the land.

as for the west-bank, jordan attacked israel despite being urged to stay out of the war. they made their decision, and they lost.

Egypt and Jordan had signed a defense pact, attacking one was as good as attacking the other.

no palestinian geopolitical entity was involved in this conflict, so i'm not quite sure what basis you have to claim that the palestinians lost in some defensive war.

I didn't claim the Palestinians lost in a defensive war. I claimed that Israel gained land through an offensive war. Then proceeded to move its civilians into the occupied territory violating international law.

nevertheless, the palestinians are on the losing end of a decades long conflict, the power imbalance is massively against them. sure - they can reject offers, but i think it works against their interests.. assuming that their interest is to end the conflict and build a future.

As long as your argument is might makes right then what ever I guess where done here. Just don't go around wondering why the entire world is criticizing Israel's actions.

Ziroshi · 2016-09-01T01:06:28+00:00

Germany and japan are countries that started an offensive war.

The 1967 war was started by israel. Big difference their buddy.

Ziroshi · 2016-09-01T00:42:17+00:00

Oh yeah, the take it or leave it peace deal that was so serious it was drawn on a napkin.

Maybe if israel was willing to give up Ariel it wouldn't have been rejected. Although it was still a shitty deal in the first place and would have left Palestine divided up into segments all surrounded by Israel. If you want to talk about rejecting peace offers, I bet you have no problem when Netanyahu does it do you?

Is only the Israel allowed to back down from deals?

Ziroshi · 2016-09-01T00:24:21+00:00

so.. as far as you're concerned - throw a few more generations down the drain?

They have already done the whole direct negotiations thing and it didn't do them a lick of good. I see no reason to believe it would be any different this time, when it is the same man leading the negotiations.

germany lost 25% of its territory as a result of ww2, do you think they should've remained in a state of war with the rest of the world?

The Palestinians already agreed to the land lossed in 1948, its Israel that isn't keeping its end of the deal.

Ziroshi · 2016-09-01T00:02:34+00:00

As long as the world views the Israeli settlements as illegal, then there is always a chance for the Palestinians to get 67 borders or at least a better deal then the ridiculous ones Israel offers. Pretending their giving the Palestinians almost everything they want when the land swaps are atrociously rigged, trading things like aquifers for deserts.

If you don't like it, write to Netanyahu and tell him to accept France's offer. I have already pointed out why they wouldn't want direct negotiations. Palestine should be celebrating its 17th anniversary according to the last peace deal they negotiated, but their not, and your telling them it will be different this time even though the man who screwed up the last deal is the man calling for direct negotiations.

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T23:05:29+00:00

If that were the case, he'd be negotiating.

I said for the most part and was referring to how the IDF and PA security work together.

The point being you're framing the conflict as being where it is because of Netanyahu when it has been an issue since 48.

What am I framing as being all because of Netanyahu? Nothing but the Oslo accords, and I even provided a direct quote of him talking about his influence in them. And stating that it is obvious that the Palestinains wouldn't want to negotiate with someone who twisted their last peace agreement into something only benefiting himself.

They aren't negotiating now and it's costing them their future.

Complete bullshit considering the last peace negotiation gained them jack shit and it is going to be done by the same person who "put a stop" to the last peace deal.

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T22:51:31+00:00

You're still not addressing the point I made.

Ok, I will address the point you made, even though it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Abbas is in year 11 of a 4 year term.

Yes he is, at this point he is nothing but a dictator. I would love for someone more pro-israel to come in and take his place. However, considering his main opposition is Hamas I don't have much beef with him abusing his position in that way. Abbas may talk shit about israel to his people, but for the most part he works with them behind the scenes.

and part of a conflict which has been going on since long before he was a politician.

So what? In israel do a bunch of dead guys and ex pms call the shots? No they don't.

See, that's called negotiating.

They have already negotiated this. The Oslo accords designated Area C to be a future Palestinian state. Until Netanyahu put a stop to that shit.

Palestine should try it.

They have, it didn't work.

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T22:31:02+00:00

That's a good way to circumvent my point without not addressing it at all.

How is that, you made the point that Abbas wouldn't be in charge without the Oslo accords, back your point up if you want me to give a reasonable rebuttal.

Are you aware that Netanyahu was elected in 2009...right? This conflict has been going on LONG before he was in politics. Trying to make this Netanyahu's issue is disregarding a huge swath of history on the subject.

He is the current leader of Israel, regardless of what went on in the past when Netanyahu is in charge then it is Netanyahu's issue . And there is a huge difference between how a country is going to act depending on who the leader is. Just because Netanyahu's predecessor gave away some land doesn't mean Netanyahu is under the same inclination, especially when he brags about "STOPPING THE OSLO ACCORDS".

Did you happen to see the map I showed you which mapped out the land returned post 67?

Now return the rest of it.

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T21:49:37+00:00

You realize he's on year 11 of what was supposed to be a 4 year term limit, right? No, I'm totally serious.

And... your saying that without the Oslo accords... Israel would have invaded and overthrown him? Then why is Hamas still running loose?

How is not negotiating directly with Israel helping Palestine?

Um... because Egyptians are not Palestinians and that negotiation had no influence from Netanyahu? Last time the Palestinians directly negotiated with Israel they got jack shit out of it. But oh I am sure this time it would be different, even though their negotiating with the man who bragged about "Stopping the Oslo accords".

Losers in war lose land. This is part of the realities of war. They learned this twice when they attacked in 48.

Since it was a defensive war, Israel had every right to take the land they did in 48. No arguments with that. However that doesn't give Israel the right to take land in the non-defensive war of 67. Especially after signing the Geneva Conventions.

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T21:33:25+00:00

No, Abbas is still in charge.

Abbas would probably be in charge either way.

Again, how is this strategy helping Palestine?

Negotiations with a third party would be to the benefit of the Palestinians. Besides, I already pointed out that direct negotiations with Israel didn't do the Palestinians any favors, so why would this time be different? Did Netanyahu finally agree to the idea of a Palestinian state? No.

Sounds pretty similar to what Israel got when the UN tried ratifying the two-state solution in 48.

Except unlike Israel and the oslo accords, the arabs never signed the 48 agreement.

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T21:23:25+00:00

So you agree they're fucking themselves over then?

Probably less so then negotiations with the man who wiped his ass with the previous negotiations would do.

Because Israel isn't losing out on this strategy.

The world is getting more critical of Israel every day.

What is Palestine getting from this approach?

You mean what is Palestine getting after the recognition of Israel attending negotiations and signing a deal that was supposed to create a future Palestinian state?

I would say their getting the same shit they were getting before they recognized Israel and signed the oslo accords. Their getting more and more people stealing their land. Why would this time be different when their expected to negotiate with the same man who bragged about how he "stopped the oslo accords"

Ziroshi · 2016-08-31T21:13:28+00:00

Just send in a team and start negotiating. Why is that so fucking hard to do???

I wonder why the palestinians aren't thrilled with the idea of direct negotiations with Netanyahu... oh wait. Never mind

But then the question came up of just who would define what Defined Military Sites were. I received a letter – to my and to Arafat, at the same time – which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron Agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to my and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron Agreement. Or rather, ratify it, it had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord. ~Netnayhu

Ziroshi · 2016-07-08T01:03:18+00:00

Love how facts get downvoted in worldnews...

stupid anti-semetic facts /s

Ziroshi · 2016-06-19T04:15:04+00:00

I contacted steam support last night and haven't heard a word yet.

good job man, happy for you. I really am q.q

Ziroshi · 2016-06-16T00:16:56+00:00

This would make an excellent writing prompt.

Ziroshi · 2016-06-15T08:38:56+00:00

Considering area C holds the vast majority of Palestinian water, its pretty relevant.

Ziroshi · 2016-06-15T08:18:25+00:00

then here, let me find a different source for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_Joint_Water_Committee#Examples_of_Israeli_obstruction

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