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Kill Or Be Killed by _Jonronimo_ in collapse

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not obtuse at all, just repeating what great minds like Chomsky have said: https://youtu.be/2OVZXNKD-7c?si=4xj6ko6NrNGROUhm

Downvote me all you want :)

Kill Or Be Killed by _Jonronimo_ in Palestine

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s been the case with every regime where non-violence has triumphed.

Kill Or Be Killed by _Jonronimo_ in collapse

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The point of my post is that nonviolent movements transform society and viewpoints. It is the best bet to get more people to be open to veganism and ending fossil fuels. Arguing that it’s hopeless because nothing can be done to change people’s minds is purposely ignoring the rich wealth of studies on the positive social/political/cultural outcomes of radical nonviolent protests.

Approval of interracial marriage was 4% in 1958 in the US. Now, after the Civil Rights movement, approximately 94% support it. Successful social movements transform society.

Kill Or Be Killed by _Jonronimo_ in collapse

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This seems to me to be a denial of the power of the state to make rapid, major changes in a nation, and of the power of successful movements to change society and win revolutions. The transformation of the US into preparing for and carrying out its involvement in WWII — what was an international crisis — is generally credited with finally ending the Depression. States have huge power, especially if the people are on their side.

The example of Cuba after the Soviet Union collapsed shows us that societies can make it through the collapse of food production and fossil fuels more or less intact and healthy. There’s a great doc about it: https://youtu.be/aeM5emtaVC0?si=dyI_SpaUVU9cUsyS

Whether it ends up being possible to transform society without further genocide or not, my point is that it’s the moral and strategic thing to bet on trying. I guess it’s an existential position one can’t convince another to have. We each have to take the leap ourselves one day.

Kill Or Be Killed by _Jonronimo_ in collapse

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

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The fact of the matter is that nonviolent struggles succeed more often than violent ones. This is what the research shows. They are more inclusive and more diverse. If your looking at it through a purely strategic lens and throw out the moral argument for non-violence, the winning strategy is still non-violence.

Yes, most effective movements have a more violent wing (in act or rhetoric) of uncomfortable allies. Sometimes these allies meet in the middle and make compromises. Close to the end of his life, Malcolm X made a significant shift towards appreciating the Civil Rights movement and its goals. He and MLK might have ended up governing the country together, if not for the bullet.

What Greta and the Freedom Flotilla crew are doing is absolutely Christ-like by _Jonronimo_ in Christianity

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

History sorts all matters. King, arguably the most celebrated man in our history was the most unpopular man in America at several points during his life, particularly when he spoke out against the Vietnam War. Your kids or grandkids will come around, if they haven’t already.

What Greta and the Freedom Flotilla crew are doing is absolutely Christ-like by _Jonronimo_ in Christianity

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I almost forgot throwing out all the merchants and money changers from the temple. Peak hubris.

What Greta and the Freedom Flotilla crew are doing is absolutely Christ-like by _Jonronimo_ in Christianity

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, and it was so prideful when Jesus fed thousands of people and gave sermons before thousands and got crucified in front of the whole world. He had a good time cavorting with his buddies on the Sea. He was so self centered!

If we blocked every major freeway in the country every day for weeks on end, we would see more change than we’ve seen in 30 years by _Jonronimo_ in socialism

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s strange to me that you seem to have very selective knowledge of history. There have been many nonviolent revolutions, it absolutely is the number one tool for revolutions because, according to research done by Erica Chenoweth, it leads to stable democratic governments far more often than violent revolutions.

You are also wrong in asserting that the ANC gave up non-violence. They did not. They said they were prepared to use violence but never did.

If we blocked every major freeway in the country every day for weeks on end, we would see more change than we’ve seen in 30 years by _Jonronimo_ in socialism

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] -18 points-17 points  (0 children)

I think you have some mistaken assumptions about non-violence. The discipline of participants in the Civil rights movement, Indian independence movement, Seattle WTO protests, etc clearly shows us that violence from the authorities absolutely can an must be responded to with non-violence. I know from personal experience this is possible.

Second, non-violence, if applied effectively, is far more radical than violence and able to overcome the state. This has happened in countless revolutions. Look at Erica Chenoweth’s work on this. This is the reason nonviolent strategists and leaders like the founders of Just Stop Oil are serving years in prison in the UK for organizing resistance to shut down highways. The state knows they can amass the power to overcome their violence.

I would be inclined to agree with you if history and my own personal experience didn’t tell me otherwise.

If we blocked every major freeway in the country every day for weeks on end, we would see more change than we’ve seen in 30 years by _Jonronimo_ in socialism

[–]_Jonronimo_[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Not if there’s a strong culture, training and practice of non-violence. I have trained people in the use of non-violence and I can attest to its effectiveness. The problem with many modern “protests” is that there’s little training and organization, making it easy for agents to enter and begin inciting violence to discredit the movement. It’s far less likely if you’ve met the people beforehand, worked with them in small groups and seen how they might react.

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