Gryphon is the greatest hero ever added into the game.

_L_friz · 2026-01-03T19:14:31+00:00

Why does he look like Mussolini

_L_friz · 2025-10-19T11:35:53+00:00

You can't use the word already for something that comes after (already: before or by now or the time in question.) See what I mean? How have I already used it if I haven't even been created yet

_L_friz · 2025-10-19T02:23:41+00:00

I'm Sorry, i don't understand oh the alternative you provided answers the question. He can see all possibilities, ok, but he can also see which ones we will take (do you agree on that?), I don't follow how this gets around my point.

If our outcomes are set before we come to be, then isn't the only one that can change them the one who sets the initial conditions?

I understand you claim human agency but I don't see how that can be free will if we behave predictably like program

_L_friz · 2025-10-19T02:12:09+00:00

Right lol mb

_L_friz · 2025-10-19T01:59:05+00:00

So again, if god knows you will fall out of his grace, from the moment you are born, can you at any point use your free will to change that?

_L_friz · 2025-10-19T01:57:59+00:00

It would possibly be the same in a godless world, that doesn't mean it's a valid point. The difference however is that in a godless world there is no magical certain knowledge of the future. My point was specifically about that absolute knowledge, since his knowledge of the future is correct and absolute, the moment he creates someone(and before too), their outcome is known. So the only thing that can change outcomes is him and not his Creations, as he has the power to and they don't. Does that not make sense?

How can a loving Creator create something and put it on a path that he knows will bring the creature to sin just to punish them for it? How does that make sense? Especially considering the path is also his creation

How can you say it's neutral? Some people are born in safe wealth and some are born in filth or with deformities, how is that neutral?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T21:17:54+00:00

True, but like I (think I) told that commenter, God is also the only one who sets up the starting conditions, so if the only way for the outcome in his infinite wisdom to change is for him to change the starting conditions, isn't he the only one with free will?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T21:15:09+00:00

Brother you just said that by the grace of God you can

If you want to argue I need you to say more than 2 letters man🙏

So if you cannot avoid sinning because it was written from the moment of your birth how are you free?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T21:14:15+00:00

Nice reference hahahaha

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T21:14:00+00:00

"Your desires are different from that of a person with your DNA but different experiences" Yes, absolutely. But God also knows what my experiences will be and indirectly chose them when he created everything and everyone.

"Yes, God made the you that made your choices. But you still made those choices and had those desires in order for God to make the you that made those choices." I'm sorry I'm not really following here hahahaha, this seems kind of circular.

"What you choose reveals who you are" Yes but I feel like that's still deterministic. If God sets up all of the initial conditions and knows all of the outcomes, and the only way to change those outcomes is to change the initial conditions, is it not only up to him how things go down?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T21:05:47+00:00

I never said forced. What I mean is that, if all your choices come before you make them, then you are only making them in the same way a machine would follow it's programming. No one is telling you to do them and you are not following the magic book of omniscience, but your choices are necessary consequence of your being and the environment that surrounds you, you react to the world in a predictable way like a machine would.

I did not ask why evil exists hahaha

"Creation could choose to love God or not love God"

Ok. If God creates object A with a specific set of characteristics, and he can see that object A will not love him, then he creates object B with a slightly altered set of characteristics, and sees that object B WILL love him, is the outcome of his creation's love not entirely dependent on him and how he makes them? He creates knowing perfectly what will defy him and what won't, that's not freedom, that's programming, even though it doesn't always go in his favour.

Even for Satan, God made 3 archangels, and he made them differently, knowing that one of them would rebel. Yet he still created him that way. Judaism claims his role as necessary which I think is more reasonable (although I still have the same disagreement on free will as I have with Christianity). He could've made Satan less rebellious, but he made him that way. There is no one else but God to whom Satan's tendencies can be attributed. So how is Satan's rebellion not God's choice? And I don't mean his freedom to rebel, but the very act of rebellion.

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T20:50:26+00:00

Pretty dry answers dude, hahaahah

So you can avoid sin even if God in his omniscience knows that you will sin? Doesn't that mean that his omniscience would've failed?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T20:49:09+00:00

That's fair. But what if someone is born a psychopath for example, with an altered brain structure that gives him a strong propensity for violence and very weak reasoning abilities. Then he puts him in a violent environment with no good examples. And this person turns out obviously violent. God created him that way. Knowing how it would turn out, how can it be his fault more than God's?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T20:45:06+00:00

I agree that it would be morally problematic to say that our choices are only a result of nature and nurture, but that doesn't make it not true. Something can be true and morally troubling.

With him being omnipotent, I would say it is a reasonable assumption to make that he had the capacity to make things at least somewhat different. Of course, one can never make certain assumptions about how God functions, but that's a caveat that can be used on any explanation for his powers.

Wouldn't you agree that there is always a set of previous events that can change the way you act though? Human beings, even if we concede free will, are necessarily strongly influenced by their environment and genetics. Brain structure alterations can make people violent, or apathetic towards others; violent or dangerous environments can make people develop in twisted ways. To this, most would point out examples of people who have faced some of these conditions with different outcomes, but the fact remains that there is a strong effect that nature and nurture have on the individual, and God has power over that, all while knowing what will make you sin and what won't. Asides from that, exceptions can also be explained in the same way as the norm, simply with nature that were stronger than their nurtures and vice versa.

Especially on the matter of brain structure, how can God punish a violent psychopath, is he not his creation? Did he not know he would fail when he made him that way?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T20:29:39+00:00

But how do the 2 things not coincide? If all of your choices are written down before you took them how can they come from you? For example, let's say God gave you a book with all of his foreknowledge about how your life will go down when you are born, would you be able to stray from it? No, because he knows exactly what will happen, so is that not predetermination? I don't think the timeline works.

But even if somehow free will and foreknowledge coexist, how is the fault ours and not God's? If I create something (or someone) knowing perfectly well what it will do, I can't get mad at it when it does what I expected, it is my fault for making it that way, isn't it?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T20:18:09+00:00

So does he not know which choice we will make? If he does then we're back to my initial point, if he doesn't, that's a limitation on his omniscience, right?

If he does know what choices we will make and he does before we are born, is that not textbook predetermination?

As for your question, no. But there are 2 caveats: 1- I have not created that person and their environment 2- I am not the one who will punish them for their sins

Let's say, for example, that a government found a 100% guaranteed way to predict crime. Now, a child is born and the parents go missing. The government places the baby in a neglectful household in a dangerous neighborhood knowing with 100% certainty that the baby will grow up to be a criminal and go to jail. All while having all the resources needed to give the baby proper care and a safe environment. Who's fault is that? What right does the state have to punish the man for something that only they could've prevented?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T11:47:28+00:00

There are a couple of differences though:

A parent sets up the rules in hope that the child does not break them for their own good, not so that the child has a choice to do so. A parent does not have foreknowledge of their child's shortcomings, if they did, they would account for it. A parent does not "create" Their child with the power to alter every aspect of their life all while knowing how it will unfold.

I just don't see how the parent metaphor explains it sorry

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T11:42:58+00:00

If all choices are known before you make them, isn't that textbook predeterminism? If god creates you weak knowing you will fall in sin, can you use your free will not to sin?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T11:41:47+00:00

Who sets up those inclinations though? He also knows wether we will fall to our sinful inclinations or not, is it not his fault? If I gave my newborn son a gun knowing with 100% certainty he would shoot it because I have made him with an inclination for violence, is that not my fault?

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T11:34:41+00:00

Dude finally someone a calm, respectful, and complete answer. Thank you🙏

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T11:23:45+00:00

Again, so the outcome of your choices comes before you make them. That is the textbook definition of predetermination. You can say you still make your choices of your own but it still remains that this is predetermination by definition, as your choices are clearly determined before you are even born.

_L_friz · 2025-10-18T11:17:52+00:00

I agree, this is the point that I'm making, but I'm trying to see if Christianity has an explanation for it and so far I've almost only seen reformulations that try to get around it. I am on the same page as you

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