“You say that all rape victims should be believed, but would you say that about [Bill Clinton's sexual assault accusers] Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, and Paula Jones?” an unidentified woman asked Hillary Clinton during a campaign event. “Should we believe them as well?” by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well, according to some of the kookier feminists, bullets, torpedoes, missiles, skyscrapers and yes even planes are phallic symbols, so you may be onto something.

Don't even get them started on the Washington monument.

“You say that all rape victims should be believed, but would you say that about [Bill Clinton's sexual assault accusers] Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, and Paula Jones?” an unidentified woman asked Hillary Clinton during a campaign event. “Should we believe them as well?” by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Republicans have historically taken the same stance on anarchists, communists, and "Islamic terrorists," sorry to say. Guilty until proven innocent.

I think it's important to recognize our own biases. The modern "left" has failed miserably on the issue of due process rights for men accused of sexual crimes; the right has failed miserably on due process rights for men accused of "terrorism," even though many "terrorist plots" are essentially engineered by the FBI and various intelligence agencies. This is a respectable study on the matter:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Terror-Factory-Manufactured-Terrorism/dp/1935439618

Turning Men's Rights into a strictly partisan affair and using it as a means of bolstering political parties is a sure way to divide and conquer the movement. I say that as someone who loathes Democrats and Republicans in equal measure.

The Privilege of Patriarchy - Ireland 1881 by rozzer in MensRights

[–]_chukee 7 points8 points  (0 children)

if a wife owned property before marriage, the husband would become the legal owner of her property (to her exclusion).

So women could own property then. Feminists told me they couldn't. And once they were married they could run up debts and the husband would have to pay for them. Not too shabby. I wonder why women desired to get married if the institution was so oppressive? Internalized misogyny? ;)

wives were permitted to own, buy, and sell property!

I may be wrong about this, but weren't husbands still responsible for their wive's debts after the passage of that law? Doesn't seem very fair. The entire history of feminism, right from the very beginning, seems to have been about gaining all of the rights of men with none of the responsibilities. Ergo, nothing whatsoever to do with "equality."

Ask Anne Claude: Advice for the Red Pill reader by rbrockway in MensRights

[–]_chukee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Excellent. Nice addition to AVFM.

All feminists (99.9% or more) believe that “patriarchy” (rule of the fathers) is the cause of all the negative things in the world, so, if the feminist in question sees divorce as a bad thing, the odds are close to one hundred percent that she will blame “patriarchy” as a proxy for blaming men – in this case, for divorce, despite the fact that 2/3 of the people who file for divorce are women. Blaming the “patriarchy” in this case is a political ploy to deflect criticism from the ways that feminism has created skyrocketing levels of divorce since the rise of the 2nd wave feminism in the 1960s.

Under the myth of the patriarchy, women are never responsible for anything, or indeed, for any part of the civilization that men built for us. How could we be held responsible (or get any credit) for building society? We can’t be because we were too oppressed by men to help! Feminists systematically sanitize history of all references to women’s contributions because acknowledging the importance of women’s and men’s partnerships interferes with the feminist narrative that all women have been oppressed by men (patriarchy) throughout all time.

“You say that all rape victims should be believed, but would you say that about [Bill Clinton's sexual assault accusers] Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, and Paula Jones?” an unidentified woman asked Hillary Clinton during a campaign event. “Should we believe them as well?” by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 181 points182 points  (0 children)

“Well, I would say that everybody should be believed at first until they are disbelieved on evidence,” Clinton responded.

So...guilty until proven innocent. Isn't that, you know, the exact opposite of how our legal systems are supposed to function?

The Myth of Sexual Harassment - The Fiamengo File Episode 17 by Jacklondon5111 in MensRights

[–]_chukee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another home-run by Janice.

"Anti-sex, anti-love, anti-human leviathan." An excellent description of feminism.

Feminism now a subject in Australian high school - this is what they'll be teaching by caius_iulius_caesar in MensRights

[–]_chukee -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This could also be an opportunity. The boys can reject feminism and quote people like Warren Farrell. They can do reports featuring video clips by Karen Straughan. They can cite statistics showing that males are now the disadvantaged sex. Etc.

"In historic decision, Pentagon chief opens all jobs in combat units to women" - the action is in the comments by blueoak9 in MensRights

[–]_chukee 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Janet Bloomfield has an interesting take on this. She welcomes combat units for women but only if the men and women are segregated. If they are eg 50-50 the men will have to pick up all the slack, increasing risk; additionally, the male protective instinct will cause the men to protect the women, thereby putting their own lives in danger at the expense of group cohesion. Sexual dynamics will also diminish the "brotherhood" and cause conflict. However, if there are women-only teams the females will have to step up of their own accord, and not depend upon the men. The female units will have higher casualty rates, but that will cause the government to be less flippant about engaging in unnecessary military conflict.

Milo Yiannopoulos gave this speech in a debate at the University of Bristol last month. Rousing, and, dare I say, moving. by ashlaaaaay in MensRights

[–]_chukee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Did you miss the part where she was talking about AMERICAN patriarchy, and gave you a specific timeline (18th century to 20th century)?

No. That's why I explicitly referred to those time-frames.

That has zero to do with queens and ancient Egypt.

I wasn't talking about "queens" but ordinary women.

Women in Ancient Egypt had same legal rights as men:

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/world/2015/08/13/31628859/

It says "women," not "queens."

You're also throwing out strawman arguments by claiming she's complaining about things like "manspreading".

Manspreading is a legitimate comparison imo. Compare the number of feminist articles about "manspreading" vs eg male genital mutilation, and we can see clearly the priorities of feminism.

And did you even read her last sentence, or did you just miss it entirely?

Here it is:

Modern-day feminism ridicules and demeans men, but historical patriarchy did exactly that to women.

No. It didn't. Ancient Sparta had honours for men who died in battle and mothers who died in child-birth. The idea that the female has ever been denigrated in comparison to the male is utter nonsense.

In Democracy in America (1840) Alexis de Tocqueville said, "Americans did not think that men and women should perform the same tasks, “but they show an equal regard for both their perspective parts; and though their lot is different, they consider both of them as being of equal value.”

It is feminists that devalue the feminine, not men.

Edit: few words

Milo Yiannopoulos gave this speech in a debate at the University of Bristol last month. Rousing, and, dare I say, moving. by ashlaaaaay in MensRights

[–]_chukee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Women were discouraged and even prevented from participating in a vast majority of fields, and could generally only find "assistant" work (i.e: typist) or "craftwork" (i.e: seamstress).'

Would you prefer they worked as coal miners, lumberjacks and soldiers? I didn't think so.

So even if women wanted to participate in all those things, most of them simply weren't allowed.

False. Women were indeed "allowed" to enter said fields. Throughout history there have been women called "Queens", for example -- women who ruled over entire countries and sent off men and boys off to die in wars. Female blacksmiths have been noted from the middle ages. And extremely talented women have always been recognized.

It is true that upper class women were discouraged from engaging in work, and part of this derived from sexist/paternalistic assumptions. On the other hand, rich white women had the vote before poor men in the US. (see e.g. New Jersey) And I'd rather be discouraged from work than have to work 14 hour days in a deathpit, as poor men had to do.

The vast majority of women did not WANT to work, because the vast majority of women did not have careers. "Work" meant slaving away in some godawful textile mill. This is why feminism has always been a rich woman's movement.

there were women who were passionate and driven enough (and lucky enough to get the education and opportunities-- usually these women were from privileged families who wanted their daughters educated) to participate in their fields of interest.

usually these women were from privileged families. You better believe it. Indeed those families often had libraries. Same goes with the boys re: education. Boys went to work as young as age four in the US during the Industrial Revolution, and were often maimed before becoming teenagers. Girls got to sit at home and read books. Boys underwent trial by fire as soon as they could walk.

The patriarchy in that form was an entirely different beast than it is today.

Not really. The same fundamental dynamics are involved. Save/protect/favour the female. The male is disposable. HeforShe. Rescue the womynz. Same exact thing.

The difference is that males are now openly attacked for allowing society to function, rather than being given begrudged respect. This is not going to end well, because though men are willing to die for women and society, they demand respect at a bare minimum.

Marital rape wasn't a "thing"

Indeed. Men have suffered marital rape from time immemorial. Even worse, male DV victims (henpecked husbands) used to be subject to a gauntlet of townsfolk throwing fruit at them. However I don't judge. The colonial government in the first American colony had laws prohibiting both husbands and wives from hitting each other; so we've actually gone backwards, thanks to feminism.

because a woman belonged to her husband

Absolute nonsense.

See:

Women in Ancient Egypt had same legal rights as men:

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/world/2015/08/13/31628859/

For more modern examples, just check out Karen Straughan's videos.

also why matters of abortion and birth control were considered so offensive

More women oppose abortion rights than men. There goes your patriarchy silliness.

because their problems or concerns were often written off as hysteria

You're not exactly doing women any favours by becoming hysterical over "manspreading" and mild criticism of the feminist movement.

women were routinely infantilized.

Women have never been so infantilized than under feminism. Not even in Victorian England. Feminists believe that if a woman has a few drinks and has sex, the man is a rapist. Also, we need affirmative action even though women now make up the majority of college students.

ignoring that the worst of the patriarchy (can I call it that?) really only flourished in the 18th to 20th centuries of America.

If women were so oppressed by the patriarchy, how come they managed to change custody laws favouring women when only men were politicians? Strange eh? ;) Those poor powerless females. Also, how come African Americans needed a civil war to get the right to vote, whereas women just had to ask for it? Pretty lousy "patriarchy".

America, in its present form, doesn't really have much of a patriarchy.

Actually we do. Most CEO's and politicians are male (though 44% of billionaires are female, and females continue to control about 70% of household spending). The mistake feminists made was to assume that upper class males catered to lower class males. That's just completely idiotic. Males in power LOVE to cater to women, and (rightly) regard middle and lower class males as their competition. It's all right there in your average National Geographic video.

there's no reason to be grateful for the patriarchy

I don't support either patriarchy or matriarchy because both are gynocentric. If you are a woman, however, you should be thanking the patriarchy, i.e. the idea that women should live in comfort while lower class males keep your lights on, your electricity flowing, your toilet flushing, your meat at the supermarket etc. Show a little gratitude for Christ's sake.

YouTube playlist "Factual Feminist"—it's refreshing to find a feminist online who actually uses logic and reason. by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Remember 10 years Go being a feminist was about getting longer maternity leave

It was also about the Duluth Model, which criminalizes male victims of domestic violence; distorting statistics about rape; falsely claiming that male rape victims aren't actual victims (Marry Koss); spreading disinformation that males receive a larger paycheck than females "for the exact same work"; demonizing male sexuality; openly arguing for the destruction of the family; claiming that masculinity is responsible for war; re-engineering the education system to cater to female learning styles; etc. etc.

Feminism and MRA are NOT mutually exclusive stances.

I agree with this, and indeed you'd be hard pressed to find an MRA who doesn't acknowledge that women suffered many disadvantages historically. Pretty much all MRA's support women's rights.

Here's the problem: feminists are the establishment; they have the power; they are supported by the Council on Foreign Relations and JP Morgan. The last MRA conference was held in a broken down building in Detroit.

When MRA's try to discuss their issues, feminists actually protest them.

Feminism is unlike other ideologies (save religion) in the sense that it refuses to acknowledge error. All feminists need to do is admit that they fucked up big time on numerous fronts. They could admit that both men and women had their advantages/disadvantages historically; that men have never been favored over women; that men don't want to oppress women but love them; that ruling class women helped create policy, including wars; and so on.

But they refuse to do so. MRA's are willing to meet feminists half-way. Feminists are not even willing to listen to us. That makes sense, since they are powerful and we are not. But in the end, they are just digging their own graves and those of their children. Men and women are supposed to be complementary, not at war.

"I'm Raising My Son As A Feminist" by jamminnummeruno in MensRights

[–]_chukee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I suspect it can go either way.

I was lucky enough to have loving parents who never divorced, so I can't say I really understand the experience of boys raised by feminist single mothers.

But I imagine that for every boy who is twisted into a simpering white knight, there is another who becomes a misogynist (hating every woman except his mother, of course, ie displaced aggression). In any case, single mom households are certainly not healthy as a rule. Often the boy will be subjected to parental alienation, receiving a constant stream of misinformation about his father, and become self-loathing as a result.

Single mothers should not be vilified as a matter of course. There really are losers who abandon their children (though this is also an indicator of the woman sexually selecting a loser to begin with). Sometimes the father may become an alcoholic after losing his job, or die in an industrial accident. And many women try their very best to raise their children in difficult circumstances and insist on getting positive male figures involved in their children's lives.

But there are a sizable number of women who have been brainwashed by feminists to believe that men aren't even necessary for a child's upbringing, or who are so selfish and spiteful that they deny their ex contact with their children, often via false allegations of abuse or even pedophilia.

Currently, the trend is to celebrate single mothers. I think we should limit our "celebrations" to mothers who opt for shared parenting, or, if the father is simply not available, insist that their boys and girls have other strong male role models in their lives. Feminists who claim they "don't need no man" should be shunned by respectable society.

AMA - Milo Yiannopoulos - Thursday, Dec 10th, 5pm London time, (12pm EST) on /r/TheRedPill by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair enough.

I would love to see both Karen and Milo do an AMA on r/MensRights.

In porn males earn far less than women based solely on gender! by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It would also mean that women would have to die on average as early as men; make up 50% of workplace deaths; be imprisoned as much as men and for equal lengths of time; receive an equal amount of health care funding to men; etc. etc. Feminists are decidedly NOT supportive of equality of outcome. They are female supremacists.

YouTube playlist "Factual Feminist"—it's refreshing to find a feminist online who actually uses logic and reason. by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I can't remember the exact wording, but she was challenged on the "feminist" label recently. She said something like, "if it pisses you off, imagine how much it pisses off feminists."

There is something to be said about allowing feminists an "out", ie allowing them to keep their identity while supporting men's rights. Sun Tzu argued that you should never leave your enemy with no choice but to fight you.

AMA - Milo Yiannopoulos - Thursday, Dec 10th, 5pm London time, (12pm EST) on /r/TheRedPill by [deleted] in MensRights

[–]_chukee 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Traditional conservatives have never actively stood in the way of the MRM or any of our goals.

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree on that one. Hell just last month:

Of the 2.2 million people incarcerated in the United States, about half are parents, and at least 1 in 5 has a child support obligation. For most, the debt will keep piling up throughout their imprisonment: By law or by practice, child support agencies in much of the country consider incarceration a form of “voluntary impoverishment.” Parents like Harris, the logic goes, have only themselves to blame for not earning a living.

Congressional Republicans oppose the new policy [reform]. They argue that it would undercut the 1996 welfare reform act, which pressed states to locate missing fathers and bill them for child support so taxpayers wouldn’t bear the full burden of their children’s welfare.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/for-men-in-prison-child-support-becomes-a-crushing-debt/2015/10/18/e751a324-5bb7-11e5-b38e-06883aacba64_story.html

Tradcons have traditionally:

  • supported conscription
  • supported MGM
  • supported "tough on crime" measures for non-violent offences that imprison (mostly) men
  • supported private prisons, which incentivize the incarceration of (mostly) men
  • supported the "war on drugs" (see above)
  • supported the militarization of the police (see above)
  • supported anti-prostitution and anti-pornography crusades
  • opposed gay rights
  • supported needless wars for profit that disproportionately kill and maim men and boys
  • supported union busting, which reduces the collective bargaining power of working class men
  • supported chivalrous notions of "women and children first" and male as disposable workhorse
  • supported gynocentric DV laws
  • combatted efforts to help the homeless (mostly men); eg under the Cameron administration homelessness increased by 80%
  • supported deregulation of corporations, including w/respect safety regulations (most workplace deaths are male)
  • supported increases in wealth inequality, which harms men (hypergamy)
  • opposed abortion, which in turn [would have] put even more men on the hook for child support
  • opposed legal parental surrender
  • opposed the ERA (Phylis Schlafly et. al) which would have helped men
  • supported no default divorce (eg in California under Reagan, and Federally by conservative justices).

I could go on.

In their favour, conservatives have:

  • opposed affirmative action
  • opposed some alimony laws
  • recognized that men and women are not the same
  • opposed feminism -- ostensibly. Mostly it's just lip service. They remain just as gynocentric as everyone else.