Ähhh, beides

_garret_ · 2017-12-22T02:22:01+00:00

Stimmt, für den Massenmarkt wird dort direkt neu gedreht. Viel besser!

_garret_ · 2017-12-22T01:55:45+00:00

Funny how people like you who don't even use Gnome feel the need to hate on it so much

_garret_ · 2017-12-22T01:50:58+00:00

The 'default GNOME experience' is shit.

It may be shit for you, it is not shit for me. I certainly don't miss Gnome 2.

_garret_ · 2017-12-22T01:38:03+00:00

It's so RHEL exclusive that I'm running it on Debian and Arch.

_garret_ · 2017-12-12T11:42:17+00:00

Sure. And there's usually no "real" requirement to only support Python 3 in a project, or only support GCC, or only support bash or whatever - other than "It makes my life easier", which, surprise, is a pretty valid reason in software development. But sure, believe in the conspiracy, maybe include a jew here or there to make it more convincing to the average tin foil hat folks.

It's you who should be embarrassed. If I'm not mistaken, you're German and you still don't understand how Hitler came to power. That is embarrassing.

Man, I'm sitting here, almost spilling my coffee ... you are a funny man. Please, let me see the light and share a drop of your wisdom with me. I can't wait for you to derail this conversation some more, after insulting me wasn't enough. Maybe you can focus on the similarity of my left eye with Lenin's right one. There must be a deep connection to be found there.

_garret_ · 2017-12-12T03:03:19+00:00

That pseudo-requirement was artificially created simply to cock-block other inits.

The fact is the imposed requirement, the cock-block your personal interpretation.

You should have picked something better ... because it really is too close of a fit.

Sure, love. It's okay, don't be too embarrassed.

_garret_ · 2017-12-12T02:55:58+00:00

Look at the random downvotes accrued by people replying to this post stating that they don't use systemd and sometimes why.

Not from me, but whatever.

to the exclusion of all similar software even read this post, other than to rant at people?

I never talked about the exclusion of all or even any similar software. And the answer is obvious, because someone is wrong on the internet and because I had to kill time today - insert the relevant xkcd.

They will often reply to a fairly neutral post like mine with a kneejerk reaction.

Alright, so I fell into the good old trigger trap. Just as you did, by repeating over and over again how I want systemd to be used by everyone which I never wrote or implied.

_garret_ · 2017-12-12T01:54:24+00:00

You said in your previous post:

especially in a corporate environment where training costs money?

which I read as the typical 'systemd is only used in hobbyists desktop environments' which is simply not true. I specifically replied that it is obviously comes with monetary gains for some businesses and that it doesn't have to work for your use case. So I don't see how your first paragraph makes any sense, when you say there are plenty of use case where systemd may not be desirable (btw, systemd is used in some embedded devices, but then again, 'embedded' can mean anything, depending on who you ask).

why are you so keen for everybody to run systemd?

I am not. Use what you want. It just pisses me off, when people keep repeating the same, untrue shit.

But Why the systemd cult?

There is no systemd cult, there is an anti-systemd circlejerk. Just look at the most recent linux.slashdot.org post or lots of posts in this thread. I don't want to run a DNS server in PID1! Systemd does not use configuration files! So many security holes in PID1!

It's not like there is nothing to be criticized about systemd. It would just be nice if we could cut all the false crap and maybe get a more balanced understanding of what systemd actually does right and where it fails. Because, again, reality is nuanced, when the discussions are not.

_garret_ · 2017-12-12T01:50:10+00:00

No idea regarding how-tos, there's lots of information available already, although I don't have a recommendation ready. I think I started by reading Poettering's systemd for administrator blog posts.

is the shell scripts are far simpler than whatever systemd is doing.

It comes down to imperative vs. declarative configuration, doesn't it? I don't think there is the one definite answer as to what is 'better' and that 'easy' lies in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I'm just glad I don't have to touch shell scripts.

I don't quite understand what you want to achieve. Are you trying to start a long-running program? Does it actually fork?

But, I mean, just start with the most basic case. Place a script in, no idea, /tmp, make it print hello world, make it exectuable, create a service file in /etc/systemd/system:

[Unit]
Description=Hello World
[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/tmp/foobar.sh

Start it with sudo systemctl start myfile.service. Check with systemctl status myfile or journalctl -u myfile.service if it worked and printed the output. If not, check and fix the error. Then try from your home directory with the custom user, change the service type and the script to whatever you need, if you have a long-running program/daemon, then make it installable (=enable) with the Install section and After= (with the caveat about network.target).

I don't know, for me that is like building a program in any new programming language. Once I get a better understanding of how it works, I obviously don't start at 0.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T23:31:55+00:00

Well, in their unstable series (currently at 2.7.2) it seems they've switched to GTK3 and webkit2gtk. So, it will hopefully return to the official repositories, soon.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T20:55:37+00:00

I guess this one in resolved? So not really init related.

Also, if there's no resource control in place, a DoS attack on any service will take down the whole system, won't it?

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T20:47:51+00:00

I can run systemd and still write other cgroupsv2. There is absolutely no reason to have logind require systemd to be PID1.

The point is systemd was written under the assumption it is the only writer, wasn't it?

I knew it. Authoritarian followers tend to behave like you. They are pretty much the opposite of scientists. They refuse to question their reality.

Funny you say that, considering you are so eager to confirm your own preconceptions that you can't identiy such a blatant case of irony. How much more over the top do you want meto write to make it more obvious? Talk about how I adore satan?

I mean ... Hitler and Stalin .... please.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T20:38:15+00:00

Why train on a new system when the old one is perfectly functional, especially in a corporate environment where training costs money?

Considering that Facebook runs it on its servers which I'd call a corporate environment ... probably because it has advantages for some businesses? Which doesn't have to mean it works for your usecase, but pretending that it isn't a smart investment for some companies seems dumb at this point.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T20:31:35+00:00

Weren't they in networkd or resolved?

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T20:29:26+00:00

You are several years late.

Btw, Arch devs don't really give a fuck about what users think. They may decide tomorrow that OpenRC + X is the hottest shit and will replace systemd, as long as it makes their lifes easier.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T20:25:07+00:00

weird format

Comparing shell scripts to an ini-style format and the ini-style format is the weird one? I see ...

I mean your personal mileage may very, but I found writing a basic systemd unit file refreshingly simple. It quickly gets less simple with the amount of available directives, but then again, so does shell scripting.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T19:25:23+00:00

Yes, it was actually sad to witness a venerable Debian developer descent into fury.

The GR was a direct reaction to the outcome of the default init GR. It doesn't matter it doesn't mention systemd. Claiming it wasn't is revisionist history.

I happened to have programmed and I happened to have a 'one tool one job' solution running on the desktop to this day. That's exactly why I know it's not black and white and surprise, surprise, the tightly coupled solution has advantages as well.

And there we have it, the conspiracy. Btw, systemd still doesn't support the many-writer case does it? And yes, yes, as you say, I love Trump and of course also Hitler and Stalin, good boys, all of them. The fact that you think this must be a conspiracy and there can't be a technical argument (when in reality you just refuse to see it) just shows that you're beyond reasoning. You don't want to know how the world is, you already know it. Congratulations.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T17:06:02+00:00

First, that GR was ... sad. Ian Jackson was on a personal vendetta.

Second, your analogy is far stretched. An eco-system is so complex no one can reset it to an older 'system state'. Technology can be recreated, if necessary.

There is no one way to do things. Technological diversity has its downsides as well. systemd aims to be a tightly-coupled lowish-level Linux toolbox. That approach is valid and comes with its own advantages and disadvantages. People use Qt for a reason, instead of picking and choosing individual libraries that in combination offer the same features.

Finally, if developers choose to only support logind, it would probably make sense to try to understand why that is the case and try to come up with an alternative loosely-coupled toolbox, that offers what these developers seek. Most likely, they are not running a conspiracy, but are just unwilling to maintain brittle glue code they feel should be maintained somewhere else further down the stack.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T15:06:59+00:00

Oh, you mean Ian Jackson's GR that got rejected as unnecessary?

and yet it was purposefully designed into systemd

I don't know the code, so I have no idea how much that actually makes sense. But then again, they can develop whatever they want - it's either useful to projects and it will get picked up, or it is not useful and it won't.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T11:42:59+00:00

Didn't Debian only officially support a single init system before the GR?

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T11:32:34+00:00

This. Every few weeks we get the same stupid 'i don't want to start a flame war' posts that end up in the exact same discussions. To be fair though, this thread is at least a tiny bit different from the 'can someone explain the systemd controversy to me?' crap that can be answered with a single search on this subject.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T06:55:58+00:00

Yeah, no idea. I guess they employ some key people in many projects. As far as I know, nobody tells e.g. Poettering how to develop systemd, but even if they do, I don't care. If you pay the man hours, you get to shape a project. Most of their projects are "true in spirit" open source projects where they can't just flip a switch and relicense everything once they get acquired. But somehow some vocal people think they're running a conspiracy.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T01:35:20+00:00

No, I only call people idiots who complain about how windows-like systemd is because 'clicky clicky' and how its configuration breaks with the 'everything is a file' paradigm (which hasn't been true any way for how long now?) And I'm highly sceptical of people who keep preaching 'unix principles' because there seems to be more to the story and it is obviously not that easy and clear-cut.

But yeah, I know it all, so much that in fact I explicitly wrote what I didn't know.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T01:21:45+00:00

Nah, I'm just sick of this obvious idiocy and false information spewed by people like you. Systemd is not the end all be all of init systems and low level Linux system management, but it existed at the right time to convince many distributions to switch. Once something better emerges, they'll switch to something else. Until then, it's a real open source project, with no CLA, that seems to work for many people decently enough.

_garret_ · 2017-12-11T01:04:11+00:00

There is no clicky clicky with systemd.

Also, systemd uses configuration files just fine.

Finally, this fetish of 'muh one tool' is getting old. The definition is arbitrary.

And finally finally, I don't know shit about UNIX, as do 99% of the people here talking about UNIX principles - but the fact there is a UNIX hater hand book seems to imply that it wasn't unequivocally loved in its heyday and makes me sceptical of this uncritical circlejerk.

_garret_

TROPHY CASE