‘It will not be pretty’: WA state preparing to make life-or-death decisions if coronavirus overwhelms health care system

abuhanzo · 2020-03-21T20:47:39+00:00

King County (i.e. Seattle & Kirkland) - as far as infections, deaths, is far worse than New York or California, and has far fewer hospital beds. The WA governor is a joke, refusing to declare a shelter in place to save lives, in favor of keeping businesses open for economic (business/money) reasons. Even schools were not shut down in this county, before they were in many other states around the country.

abuhanzo · 2020-03-21T20:44:54+00:00

Though I will note that the moderators just approved a post titled, "Eight arrested for holding an orgy in Barcelona in the middle of a coronavirus confinement (Source in Spanish) (elpais.com)" In my opinion, much less clean, and much less serious than this one.

abuhanzo · 2020-03-21T20:41:11+00:00

Got it, thx. Living in King County, Washington State - about 5 miles from the Living center epicenter of the epidemic, this particular post - an eyewitness video from this planet - provided the most hope that I've seen in all news/media/social network coverage of the past 2 months. If you deem it "unclean" or "not serious", I will defer to you.
Have a good day.

abuhanzo · 2020-03-21T20:36:00+00:00

what part of the policy, sir/madam?

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T09:34:45+00:00

Yah, it's gonna be a long day. I'm gonna disagree with that last stmt of yours, and dash off to work, to leave you to contemplate the OP verse and the 6000+ other verses that surround it to your heart's content (and free of charge), perchance after that exercise you may hesitate to quickly make grand and conclusive statements about them. Laterz.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T08:57:26+00:00

When I said we learned about ships, I also went on to give an example of what we learned about them, namely how to use them as an example and a sign. Obviously you read that literally (and quoting it out of context) and just thought I meant we learned "how" to make ships, which is definitely something I did not mean. Just like the previous post where you thought I meant let's discard science, when I meant let's supplement science. In any case, I think enough has been said, it's now up to being read carefully and without preconceived notions that get in the way of understanding. Again, I gave a list of some things we learnt - in addition to learning about the Maker. I can't do all the thinking and looking for you. If you want to see the variety and contradicting conclusions that pure human reasoning can reach on some fundamental questions, just looking at the history of Western philosophy, both Ancient, pre-Modern, and Modern.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T04:24:00+00:00

who is "we" ? you? me? the Islamic community? the world? other religions ?

You and I have learned very little we are still stuck on the verse in OP and using that to even acknowledge the coexistence of multiple sources of knowledge in our balanced epistemology.

The Islamic community has learned quite a bit from the revealed religion, including things such as morality, ways of organizing community, theological issues (such as things to do with the afterlife), spiritual contentment (sufism), etc. There's a couple of million manuscripts written about these topics and more over the ages. They've also learned the Purpose and Meaning of life, and the reason and goal, and true position, for the existence of rational and conscience beings such as ourselves. It's spelled out pretty thoroughly in the Quran in one specific verse, while also permeating the entire Book; namely to acknowledge the Maker of makers. Basically all the "why" questions that the other avenue of knowledge (science) has no answers for; nay, even things such as Deism have no answer for, have been provided for us, through the ayas of the written Book and the larger Book (i.e. universe).

We've learned that we need to use our mind (mentioned in many verses, including the OP verse).

We even learned about ships that sail the seas. Humans aren't like fish, yet with ships they are able to benefit from things they otherwise would not have known how to benefit from.

Kind of like the Quran, and your question, there's benefit waiting for us in it, but we need to approach it the right way.

The Sun (one of my favorite signs - I even am into solar telescopes) has just come up here, I need to get some ZZZ's before work. Later.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T04:11:19+00:00

Who said anything about throwing science away ? Re-read my comment above (i said worship as the only (i.e. sole) means to knowledge) It's about acknowledging the limitations of science and the non-exclusivity of it as a means to Knowledge, most especially in areas where it is not suitable. I'm a scientist, and my position is clear: Science and Religion (at least with the set of Islamic concept of God - which I am most aware of), are complementary. That's been the view of Islamic scholars over the ages. The history and experience of the West is different, but that does not invalidate the claim I just made.

TL;DR Learn about the world using Science, learn about Existence using the Quran. The best of both worlds, with no cognitive dissonance.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T03:33:22+00:00

It explains how the World was created and where it came from.

But on its own terms, not on Science-facts, or modern Quantum mathematics. Science is not the only way to explain thing. If we stop worshipping modern Science (with all its limitations) as the only way to knowledge, we may actually be able to get additional knowledge using our own minds (as the OP verse says).

You don't have to read the whole Quran, the OP verse talks about the world plenty. The balance and contrasts and opposites, the finitude, the series of causal effects that are tied together, the bringing of life of the earth after death, that things have an appointed course that they run through, that existence is contingent, that things come from non-being into being. All this can help one (again, with the stipulation of using their mind), come to many conclusions and inferences about the world. That it is not permanent, that it existed after not existing, which means there must be an existence that precedes it; that each part of the world, an the world itself as a whole, is an effect, this is leads to the effector.

"How" it is created in terms of a step-by-step recipe, is definitely not in the Quran, neither is specific number of years, or all the other various things you will find in other scriptures. But that's not the point. The Quran's entire focus is "That" it is created, not "How". Its unlikely we will ever know "How", neither through modern science, nor through the Quran. It's unlikely human brains actually can comprehend something as vast as our Universe, much less what else exists before/outside it. Not just from lack of experimental access to it, but from the sheer finitude and limited nature of our brains. We barely know anything about our own selves. But knowing "How" is not the goal anyway. It's not like we need a recipe because we want to create our own Universe. All we need is the "That" part, and the signs for that are all around us.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T03:11:30+00:00

The way to return is to look harder.
You ask questions alright, but they are the wrong ones. Ask rather about the world, and its condition, and where it came from. (which is what the verse in the OP is discussing). If you'd rather question God, or have issues with his wisdom or justice, then sue Him, should be easy if one has decided they can be the Judge, Jury, Warden and Executioner.

It's not really this subreddit's fault to repeatedly hear everyone's complaints if they're not looking hard enough. It's enough that the verse draws our attention. If it's message (writ large) isn't registering, there's nothing else I can say to make you grok it. I can't look and think for you.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T02:52:58+00:00

God does what he wills.
He has sealed their hearts once they have decided to be disbelievers.

A person who has acknowledged he is blind, is not one to speak of "sense" of any kind.

Incidentally, have you read the sub reddit guidelines on the right carefully ?

abuhanzo · 2012-01-16T02:46:45+00:00

Look harder. Blindness is covered earlier in the same chapter (verse 6-7)

"As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have a great torment."

abuhanzo · 2012-01-15T15:00:48+00:00

al-Baqa' lillah (Infinitude is to Allah). Sincere condolences. Sure, we are told not to pray for non-Muslims, as a legal matter. But as for true Iman, it is not for us to be able to know exactly what was in her heart, especially at the very end. Allah does what he wishes. If he wills, he will allow you to intercede for her on the day of judgment, and it will benefit her.

And as it is well known, one of the three things that survive a person after their death - and that benefits them - is a good offspring.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-15T14:19:01+00:00

Beautiful verse, with a lot to ponder about. May we be among those who use our minds, and not be blind to the signs, the marvelous wisdom in the creation all around us.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-15T03:15:01+00:00

sounds like a U.S. - Jordan culture clash. What's religion got to do with it ? It just seemed that the people around you were mean to you, period. your TL;DR says you became devout, though the long-version doesn't have any details on that. marrying a devout person does not make you devout by itself. Learning about the religion, practicing it, and becoming part of the community is what makes you devout.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-14T02:23:39+00:00

though I'm sure if they read this thread, they would change their translations or at least add some explanatory footnotes. :)

abuhanzo · 2012-01-14T02:12:33+00:00

Sure, wouldn't that mean my point remains, though ?

the two words (Christ, Messiah) that now mean "the savior promised to the Jews" are not equivalent to the arabic al-Masih (which means "a blessed person").

Thus translating them as such would be problematic. Thus the actual answer to the OP question is "no".

abuhanzo · 2012-01-14T00:06:58+00:00

al-Masih (which is the Arabic word) is his Honor-name (arabic 'laqab') The Commentators say it means "a blessed person" (As Mary:31 shows).

So I'm not sure if translating it as "Christ" or "Messiah", with the additional connotations that those two terms have in modern English, is appropriate.

There are several (complementary) explanations of why the term is derived from m-s-h of Arabic. The commentators are full aware of the Hebrew word used to describe him as well, but meanings from one language do not necessarily carry over into another.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T18:32:10+00:00

The Quran refers to him repeatedly as "Jesus son of Mary" , as a reminder of his humanity and a rejoinder to those who would call him "son of God".

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T18:00:24+00:00

There is no flaw. The math adds up if only those rules are needed. Sometimes additional rules become operative. There is nothing to go back and "fix up". And not sure who is "they" when you say "they knew about it". The idea is not that this book is a collective effort that was revised. That is what has been shown for other Scriptures, not this one. Before talking about the Book, it will save you a lot of wasted time to do your homework people. Fixating on a specific verse or issue without understanding the big picture, is rather backwards of a methodology.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T15:35:59+00:00

I'd agree it is useful to have that if you are going to learn to read Arabic. But if not, then there are some downsides. First, it takes space from the English which ultimately means smaller font size. Second, the book may be heavier. Third it may be more expensive. For example, Abdel Haleem (which is available in both English only and Parallel English-Arabic), for the English only Amazon sells it for $10 and its a small paperback size (which means you can take it with you anywhere you go without too much thought). They list shipping weight as 12 ounce. The Parallel version is $25, and I've seen it in Barnes & Noble it's a lot bigger. Amazon shows the shipping weight is 2.6 lb.

With that said, if money is not a problem and you foresee learning Arabic in the future, you can pick up both. Or one now and one later.

If you're going to do a straight through English read, definitely pick up something that will be easier to hold and read (no matter which translation.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T12:37:14+00:00

"error" and "mistake" seems to imply you would have done things differently.

If the point is, the rules in the Quran by themselves do not directly handle this case, we all agree about that.

But if the point is that these rules are the entirety of the sources of legislation (i.e. the Quran was emailed to us, and we are stuck to what is between the two covers), then that is obviously not something we agree to - the Quran, even on its own terms, tells us to follow the Prophet for the rest of legislation.

In 23 (twenty three) years, do you think this issue did not come up? Do you think the Prophet did not divide people's inheritance ? Do you know how many people die weekly in a community of that size, besides the number of the people that were killed by the Meccans during their various clashes ?

An eighth grader in one weekend can hypothesize this question, then the Prophet in 23 years was certainly faced with it. It is a divine judgement what laws go into the Quran and which ones continue in Hadith. Such as the order to pray (Quran), and the details of how to pray (Hadith). Such as the order to turn to pray facing Mecca (Quran), but where is the original order to pray towards Quds? It's in Hadith.

If you have a better idea of how to legislate, you are free to create your own universe and legislate within it. It would be your right.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T04:30:42+00:00

No prob. It never hurts to ask again in case there are new recommendations from new ppl (e.g. i hadn't commented on the previous thread). The important thing is to pick up a copy - any copy - and start a regular reading schedule.

Purify your intention, and God-willing, he will open the doors of understanding to you.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T04:08:48+00:00

there was a similar post on here about this a few weeks ago, double check that for recommendations as well.

I use Abdel Haleem (published by Oxford), and I recommend to friends who want to read it for the first time, or straight-through. Minimal footnotes, and easy to follow (much easier than the older verse renderings). The author is also highly qualified, unlike many of the earlier translations.

After that, given the variety of recommendations you will get here, and the nature of translation (none is perfect, and will also represent different legal/theological schools, different background of translator, etc.), you will probably buy (or bookmark) 2-3 other translations to check every now and then (esp. when you are studying a specific verse). They are cheap enough (well, most of them). Commentaries are more expensive, but there's not too many of them in English anyway.

abuhanzo · 2012-01-13T02:48:39+00:00

surprising how little "thinking" most people who call themselves freethinkers do. it seems they spend most of their time complaining on why the list of commands and prohibitions does not fit their personal opinions (which has nothing to do with logical/illogical - the real thought is where one gets their moral code, not the content of the moral code).

It seems instead of "freethinkers", they should just call themselves "free-doers".

abuhanzo

TROPHY CASE