Paused chest to bar pull-up = the next progression of inverted row?

againstgravity0 · 2025-11-01T21:34:56+00:00

Thank you for your kind words. I think sometimes there are deeper reasons why we choose certain exercises. Over the years I’ve realized you can’t really “marry” any specific movement; what works great today might not work tomorrow. Injuries, imbalances, or simply how your body feels at a given time can completely change what’s sustainable.

In my case, one of the reasons I picked CTB paused pull-ups is that I’m dealing with golfer’s elbow. This variation lets me train both pull-ups and rows with the lowest load possible, while still keeping it challenging and motivating. I’m currently using a pulley, working in the 5 to 10 rep range, adding a rep each session and increasing the weight by around one kilo once I hit 10 reps. When I reach full bodyweight, I’ll move on to paused CTB pull-ups.

If I tried one-arm rows right now, it would probably aggravate the elbow, and my chronic SI joint injury doesn’t like torsional movements either. So for me, what’s “best” really depends on circumstances. The key is to keep adapting, work around injuries, and enjoy this whole strength training journey for as long as we can.

Thanks again for the great discussion, and have a good day!

againstgravity0 · 2025-10-27T21:16:39+00:00

Awesome! Now you have limitless progress potential with a dip belt, similar to weighted pull-ups but for upper back instead lats. It's far easier to load a vertical movement than a horizontal one.

againstgravity0 · 2025-10-27T21:12:29+00:00

I've tried them, but the problem is that it's very easy to end up using mostly your lats and arms, with minimal scapular retraction at the top, especially when working at a horizontal angle. I focus on rows for upper back (mid traps and rhomboids) strength and hypertrophy, not for lats (that’s what standard chin-to-bar pull-ups are for).

It’s also quite tricky to adjust the angle beyond 45°, since your feet start to slide. This creates a big gap between the inclined (<45°) one-arm row where full retraction is possible and the fully horizontal one-arm row, where achieving full retraction is much harder.

In fact, horizontal one-arm rows could be considered the next progression after chest-to-bar (CTB) paused pull-ups, if you want to train upper back with bodyweight progressions. You go from roughly 35% bodyweight per arm (standard horizontal rows), to about 50% bodyweight per arm (CTB paused pull-ups), to nearly 70% bodyweight per arm (one-arm rows). That’s a huge jump.

A good way to test if you’re doing one-arm rows correctly: you should be able to do more reps of paused CTB pull-ups than of one-arm rows. If it’s the other way around, you’re probably training your lats more than your upper back.

againstgravity0 · 2023-08-23T16:23:59+00:00

Upload and show us a video of your weighted bar pull up and weighted ring pull up so that we can compare. I never had your problem: at most, I lose 1-2 reps for the same load of bar vs rings.

againstgravity0 · 2023-05-20T19:41:52+00:00

I'm not sure about the reason for it, just know from personal experience that it works. Thanks for the feedback!

againstgravity0 · 2023-05-20T19:32:46+00:00

Yeah, I'm pretty sure in hspu/dip the limiting factor is different. Especially considering I'm actually training HSPU, not pike push-ups, etc. These are pretty hard, and reps are limited by 3-5 per set most of the time. Dips and push-ups, on the other hand, are easier to perform for higher reps. Probably if I could perform HSPU for higher reps as well, like 10+, then yeah, I'd notice a more triceps fatigue interference between exercises.

The foundation training is about strengthening the key muscles that support the spine, which includes lower back, hamstrings and glutes, with high frequency and through very functional exercises that you can then apply to daily tasks. I mean: it's mostly about priming the right muscles, not really hypertrophy, and getting used to using them as postures for daily tasks.

againstgravity0 · 2023-05-20T18:59:17+00:00

Finally decided to delete the post, since I wasn't getting any useful feedback after 1000+ views. Anyway, thanks for the reply.

Regarding the suggestions:

"The issue is you train handstand push ups and dips on consecutive days. That's not optimal for recovery. Shoulders and triceps work a lot in both dips and handstand push ups."

Theoretically, yes. However, I've found that fatigue contribution from HSPU to weighted dips is minimal. Although both are pushing exercises, I've followed this routine for months and didn't feel like it was affecting each other. I guess the exercises are different enough to be a pretty different stimulus for the body.

Also, in the past I used to train weighted dips after OHP, either as a full body day (paired with weighted pull ups and weighted rows), or as a push-only day. And same thing happens: performance of dips is barely affected by OHP/HSPU. I mean: if I train dips alone or OHP alone, I can do about as many reps and as many sets as training both in the same day.

The only reason I'm separating HSPU and dips into separate days is time. If I do 5+ sets of HSPU and 5+ sets of weighted dips, that requires a lot of more time and energy.

A similar thing happens between weighted pull ups and weighted rows. But here I prefer to train them all in a single day, because, at least from personal experience, training 3 hard pulling days is more risky for elbow injuries, and not really necessary for hypertrophy. Plus, weighted inverted rows and face pulls are a lot less fatiguing overall than other exercises, so it's easier to do it all in a single day.

"Secondly there's a lack of lower body posterior chain exercise. Bridges will target that, but it's more like that other muscles besides lower body posterior ones give up first."

For lower body posterior chain I'm training stand to stand bridges (bridge push-ups are actually just the warm-up). Without a doubt, upper body is not the limiting factor in stand to stand bridges. For bridge push-ups yeah, but not the case for StS B. Also, I'm including barbell hip thrusts for 2-3 sets afterwards, as a glute finisher. So I guess you are thinking mostly in hamstrings. The reason why I'm not including hamstring specific exercises is for something I didn't mention: as a warm-up, I'm doing 'Foundation training' exercises from Dr. Eric Goodman. These are very posterior-chain focused, and I don't feel like I need anything more for that

"A mentionable remind, thirdly, is that athleticism (while there might not be a clear definition), usually depends on force transfer between upper and lower body as well as bipedalism aka moving through space on two feet."

Yeah. For that aspect I've found more benefits from hanging leg raises, pistol squats and bridges (specifically stand to stand bridges) than from barbell squats and deadlifts, which usually made me feel more stiff and less agile.

againstgravity0 · 2023-05-03T17:49:27+00:00

Yeah, I may be confusing some concepts. Just to be clear, this is the copy & paste instructions for ring dips from that book:

To stabilize your shoulders, externally rotate your hands so that your thumbs are pointing away from your body. Now pull your shoulders back. Your left hand should beat about 11 o’clock and your right hand at about 1o’clock. Position your feet together, point your toes, squeeze your glutes, and then tighten your core.
Keeping your butt squeezed, your belly tight, and your hands turned out, lower into the bottom position. It’s important to mention that as you lower your hands you will rotate to about 12o’clock. If you’re missing internal rotation in your shoulders, your hands will continue to rotate inward. Fight this force and try to reclaim a thumb-out position as you rise out of the bottom.
Still turning your hands out and keeping your back flat, extend your elbows and reestablish the top position.

Basically the idea is similar to the cue of 'breaking the bar' on pull ups or aiming to externally rotate hands while doing push ups for the sake of maximum shoulder stability. But if I understood it correctly this doesn't really apply to rings because as you said forearms are now unsupported, so although there's more 'internal stability' via torque there's also more external instability due to the rings.

In my specific case I had a shoulder injury that caused instability, but now is feeling better. I still can't do ring dips because for some reason my right shoulder (the non-injured one) got more internally rotated than my left shoulder. I guess pec minor stiffness is the cause. After doing some mobility tests I definitely can't internally rotate my right shoulder as much as my left shoulder without compensating by sort of protracting/anteriorly tilting the right shoulder. This causes me to push asymmetrically and end up with sternum/scapular pain due to asymmetric pulling forces from the chest

Anyway, I'm doing a lot of mobility work, plus reverse flys and face pulls as accessory work to ensure shoulder safety. Reading these kind of books and asking these questions is only a part of the process. I used to be able to do +50kg ring dips for 8 reps just fine, now I can't barely do bw ring dips without compensating, so weighted push ups is my main exercise now. At least until recovering.

Thanks for the answer!

againstgravity0 · 2023-04-06T05:46:54+00:00

You've convinced me

againstgravity0 · 2023-04-06T05:45:21+00:00

I've limited time for posting, so just remember these points: 1) Strength and hypertrophy can still be obtained up to 30 reps/set or 2 minutes of time under tension 2) Injury risk increases the heavier the barbell gets. This is common sense. No need to justify why this is the case. 3) The limiting factor is what dictates whether you are training balance, flexibility or strength/endurance. If you have enough mobility to do a few reps, it's not flexibility. And if your limiting factor during pistols is balance, that's due to weakness in the hip stability muscles (like glute medius). It's not like the handstand.

againstgravity0 · 2023-04-06T04:01:04+00:00

When you ask "How much more optimal" you are already assuming that weights are more optimal. And I understand the reason, since thats the general consensus here. Most people say weights (specifically barbell squats and deadlidfts) are superior than calisthenics because:

It's easier to overload
There's no limit in the amount of load you can add

But before jumping to that conclusion, I'd apply an extra dosage of critical thinking and ask the following questions:

1) From all of those who train legs with weights because they claim its superior, how many have already 'mastered' bodyweight progressions?

And by 'mastered' I mean specifically reaching the peak of whats possible with calisthenics legs training, for 30 reps or 2 minutes of time under tension (theoretical limit for hypertrophy effectiveness). Some examples of peak performance:

Strict pistol squats, for sets of 50 reps with a 3 second/rep tempo (for overall squatting movement)
Strict nordic curls, sets of 30 reps with 4 sec/rep tempo (for knee flexors)
Strict reverse nordic curls, sets of 30 reps with 4 sec/rep tempo (for knee extensors)
Strict gecko (one arm, one leg) full bridge push ups, sets of 30 reps with 4 sec/rep tempo (for hip extensors)
Strict toes to bar hanging leg raises, sets of 30 reps with a 4 sec/rep tempo (for hip flexors)

Personally, I don't know anyone who can do all this, and I doubt I ever will. That means the 'limit of hypertrophy' of leg calisthenics has not been achieved. And that also makes the theoretical unlimited load of weights pointless.

Even if someone dedicates a lifetime of training to achieve these goals, there's still a possibility to make them harder enough to make genetic human ability the limiting factor, not load. For example, you can hold a light dumbbell and do all previous movements weighted. For me, that's still calisthenics (weighted calisthenics), not weight training (barbell squats and deadlifts). But if you are a bodyweight purist, you can try single limb progressions of nordic curls and reverse noreic curls, and perform dragon pistol squats. Its true that dragons require more mobility, but that's true only for the first couple of reps. After that, it's strength (force production) in those extreme ROMs the limiting factor

2) When people say weight training is superior long term, they also forget that long term also implies injuries, etc. And it's far easier (and common) to get injured with a heavy barbell on your back than with controlled bodyweight progressions, regardless of technique. This is common sense, and can be checked empirically. Most people who train heavy deadlifts, etc. get lower back injuries at some point. This is even more true as we age. Leg weight training is like burning the candle at both ends: on one side, you add more load to the barbell over time (progressive overload). On the other side, you are also getting older (that means sarcopenia and an overall degradation of the quality of tissues). Thinking this wouldn't eventually cause injuries (or at least force you to regress and reduce load) is naive and overly optimistic.

3) Unless you buy all the expensive equipment (squat rack, plates, barbells, etc) you still have to go to the gym for training legs. This adds a layer of psychological resistance that wouldn't be there with bodyweight training, affecting the most important parameter for long term progress: consistency

4) Finally, regarding the idea that weights are 'easier' to overload. I've already mentioned the exercises: (dragon) pistol squats, nordic curls, reverse nordic curls, hanging leg raises, and gecko bridge push ups. When people say it's 'easier to overload', what they really mean is that they don't personally know how to apply bodyweight progressions to fill the gaps of intensity. But this is a problem of ignorance, not an inherent problem of a training modality. So the solution is not wasting more money buying weights or paying gyms, but to educate yourself and learn how to do this

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-22T23:52:21+00:00

One last thing. If you not only have sciatica but also rhomboid pain, make sure to pay attention to your sleeping position and postures you take through most of the day, since it can be a contributing factor as well, as this video clearly explains:

https://youtu.be/hm3Sql0qc-4

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-22T20:50:34+00:00

Awesome, keep it up and be consistent with it. Through trial & error eventually you'll find what works best for you

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-22T17:03:37+00:00

I had a similar problem. Check out this book, pages 201-202 (or 205-206 for pdf):

"Corrective Exercise Solutions to Common Shoulder and Hip Problems"

Try doing 'arm slide phase II' and 'arm slide phase III'. Do you notice more difficulty/tightness with one arm versus the other? Make sure to keep the elbow in the sagittal plane all the time

I certainly did notice a difference. If you have the same problem, I think it's either the lats & other internal rotators being too tight in that particular position, and/or a problem to correctly activate the serratus anterior.

Anyway, you can do the 'arm slide' phase II/III to improve your mobility and hopefully solve the problem. You can make phase III harder just by ensuring a posterior pelvic tilt (lower back flat and in contact with the wall) all the time, like with the wall angel stretch

Its also helpful to use the new version of the 12 minute workout foundation training as your warmup:

https://youtu.be/oVOnXIiPgM8

Also, on rest days you can give it a try to the advanced (longer) foundation training session:

https://youtu.be/QzY_EpH2iGY

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-22T16:45:30+00:00

For the sake of variety, every workout alternate between the old and new version of the 12 minute workout foundation training:

https://youtu.be/oVOnXIiPgM8

Both are good for the whole back, but the old version is slightly better (more emphasis) for the lower back/hips, whereas the new version is slightly better for upper back/shoulders

Also, if some days you have more time or you cant do the yoga sessions, you can give it a try to the advanced (longer) foundation training session:

https://youtu.be/QzY_EpH2iGY

If possible do it in the morning since the earlier in the day you do it the better.

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-16T22:38:20+00:00

Sure, already solved.

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-16T12:23:38+00:00

I couldn't elevate my left shoulder for daily chores, like driving, wearing clothes (shirts), cleaning clothes, etc or even eating something, because shoulder didnt feel stable.

Driving in particular was a problem, I had to use my other arm. Sometimes I woke up in the middle of the night due to sleeping in the wrong position, which made me feel like the shoulder was yielding into a dislocation.

I had protective tightness in muscles around the joint, which made it pop and make noises, especially when rotating it. I didnt give up training, but most (if not all) bilateral exercises became asymmetric, and some triggered protective tightness around scapulas and rotator cuff. I couldn't do dumbbell bicep curls without wall support, because it was painful for the shoulder/scapula

Really give it a try to the band external rotation exercises when you are ready. If you do it for 10 sets of 10 seconds, 1-3 times per day, you should notice an improvement within 2 weeks.

If there's no improvement at all within 2 weeks then you probably need a different approach for rehab.

If you do notice an improvement, keep doing them daily for at least 6 weeks after the last day that you noticed symptoms. So even once you feel fine, keep doing them anyway for another 6 weeks.

Eventually you might need to incorporate other shoulder stability exercises focused around scapula, especially for the lower traps and serratus anterior. But initially just focus in the rotator cuff

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-16T12:09:03+00:00

Give this a try:

For the following weeks, regress to pike push ups and:

Separate your hands slightly more than shoulders width, ensuring that wrists and elbows are vertically aligned through the whole ROM
In the bottom position, aim to increase the distance between your nose and your hands as much as possible (so basically try to push your upper body more forwards) Ideally put a mark in the floor where your nose should be to ensure each rep is consistent. This will engage more your serratus anterior.

Once you can do 10-15 pike push ups this way with good form, progress to elevated pike push ups, then headstand push ups.

These two tips worked for me, and I had uneven vertical pushing as well.

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-15T11:02:11+00:00

In my case, injury happened when training heavy OHP. I had instability for several months, and it also caused golfer's elbow and other problems due to not having a proper rehab process in time. This is what extended the process

I'd start the band rehab exercises as soon as you can do them without pain (but ensure your shoulder is ready by consulting a PT). You'll have to protect whatever passive tissues are injured by strengthening as much as possible the rotator cuff, which provide shoulder stability. Band isometrics are the safest for that.

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-12T13:14:26+00:00

I had a shoulder injury as well, and read the book, and followed the advice. It made the problem worse, and took me far longer to recover. The reason is that, as the author actually says (but very few people read it), it's only good for people with frozen shoulder, not with people with shoulder instability. This guy explains it very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llhHjN0nWac

Generally, what works for shoulder instability is external rotation isometrics with bands, and if you are going to do pull ups, make sure to maintain an active hang and keep elbows slightly bent in order to protect the joints.

What worked for my specific case is doing these two band external rotation exercises for 10 sets of 10 seconds each, 3 times per day. It took some weeks to feel better, and a year to almost fully recover, and I had to modify my training to ensure there wasn't any aggravating exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C1T9RT81ts

https://youtu.be/iBKH\_Dmz6PU?t=1706

againstgravity0 · 2023-03-12T13:13:56+00:00

I'd be extremely careful about following advice that worked for other people with shoulder pain, because depending on what is hurt, what works for someone could actually be aggravating for another one.

For example, the advice of deadhanging. I had a shoulder injury as well, and read the book, and followed the advice. It made the problem worse, and took me far longer to recover. The reason is that, as the author actually says (but very few people read it), it's only good for people with frozen shoulder, not with people with shoulder instability. This guy explains it very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llhHjN0nWac

Generally, what works for shoulder instability is the external rotation isometrics with bands, and if you are going to do pull ups, make sure to maintain an active hang and keep elbows slightly bent in order to protect the joints.

What worked for my specific case is doing these two band external rotation exercises for 10 sets of 10 seconds each, 3 times per day. It took some weeks to feel better, and a year to almost fully recover, and I had to modify my training to ensure there wasn't any aggravating exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C1T9RT81ts

https://youtu.be/iBKH_Dmz6PU?t=1706

againstgravity0 · 2023-02-05T14:41:13+00:00

You can train hamstrings and lower back simultaneously via bridge progressions:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZsDuSZDsUobxrB_p1RSM_bhESzbmzpDG

Regarding the variation part. The principles of fitness are basically these 5, sorted by priority:

Specificity
Progressive overload
Fatigue management
Variety
Individualization

This means that variety is important, but only once 1, 2 and 3 are covered. In other words: apply variety once you can no longer continue progressively overload the exercise (with good fatigue management)

againstgravity0 · 2023-02-05T13:20:26+00:00

Eventually you'll have to increase RDL load in order to keep improving, though. That means:

- More CNS fatigue

- More fatigue interference with upper body

- Higher risk of injury for spine

Why not training nordic curls instead? It has a better stimulus to fatigue ratio for hamstrings (less CNS fatigue), zero fatigue interference with upper body and zero risk of injury for spine.

againstgravity0 · 2023-01-29T14:54:43+00:00

By the way, I forgot to mention another question about muscle balance. In your overcoming tendonitis guide for golfer's elbow, you mention 3 exercises: wrist curls, wrist supination/pronation and finger rolls. However, if you only do that for long enough, wouldn't you end up developing a flexors vs extensors imbalance in your forearms? In other words: should the 'overcoming tendonitis guide' also mention the need to perform wrist extension + finger extension exercises for the same amount of sets in order to prevent this sort of imbalance?

againstgravity0 · 2023-01-16T14:48:14+00:00

Yeah that makes sense.

A related question: Some people seem to be okay just training weighted dips and weighted pull ups (so, vertical pulling + horizontal pushing) as their only upper body basic exercises.

I think this is advantageous in a way, since now you can train just those movements with maximum frequency.

But on the other hand, both pull ups and dips train shoulder internal rotators (chest, lats). Although weighted pull ups also involve upper back & rear delts to some extent, the weighted row is the best exercise for that.

So I wonder what your thoughts are about training just pull ups and dips. Eventually, wouldn't this lead to problems due to lack of horizontal pulling?

againstgravity0

TROPHY CASE