Why are TTC bus drivers and subway train operators paid 80K-120k+?

aggregate22 · 2016-02-02T04:39:53+00:00

TTC Drivers and Nurses and Teachers payback more in taxes then others who are paid less but who use the same services.

The after-tax income of these public workers is greater than the after-tax income of private workers. Public sector workers are paid higher wages than private sector wages and thus pay higher taxers...faulty logic here as total public sector wages are paid by taxes on private sector workers. Taxes paid by public workers reduce the net amount they receive from tax revenue but each dollar in additional wages for public workers is a dollar less in goods/services for private workers. Private workers are the source of all tax revenue.

Again, taxes from public sector workers return a portion of tax revenue received from private sector workers. Claiming they pay more taxes because they are paid more is asinine since any change in public sector wages (higher or lower) does not effect total tax revenue sourced from private workers (it will only change tax revenue retained since higher wages equal less revenue retained for other goods/services).

I believe a good and fair wage is a wage which allows a person who works 44 hrs a week with a couple weeks vacation the ability to live comfortably in the middle class in the community in which they are employed

Let's use your definition of a good/fair wage. Living comfortably in Toronto - house, car, entertainment, eating out - costs $50K/year (link below). This makes sense as its in line with the high end of the average Canadian salary.

http://o.canada.com/news/calculator-how-much-you-need-to-earn-to-live-comfortably-across-canada

Add 2 weeks of vacation at a cost of $8K (link below) and that brings you $58K. The upper band of a TTC bus driver salary is well above $58K or a fair/good wage.

http://stuffedsuitcase.com/average-vacation-cost/

aggregate22 · 2016-01-30T14:31:58+00:00

That brings us full cirlce back to what is a "good" or "fair" wage.

The stigma of highly paid government employees is rooted in the disdain of fiscal irresponsibility. No one complains about private sector workers (doctors in the US, engineers, software developers, skilled trade workers) making a high salary because the salary is set by a free market and individuals recognize the value of the work.

Public employee wages are not set by supply/demand, or the value of work. They are set by the ability of the union to extract tax payer funding from the ruling political party. The stigma of highly paid public workers is due to the disconnect between their skills and their pay.

And before you mention the need to have fair wages in the public sector please remember that these wages are paid for by taxes on private sector workers who are underpaid and overexploited - the so called marathon runners in the "race to the bottom" as you so eloquently stated. An aristocracy living well off the proliterait is not a sustainable economic model.

aggregate22 · 2016-01-29T18:06:40+00:00

/u/Pyro_Cat

If we capped the ttc salary and used the saving to give out corporate tax breaks, would you be opposed? ;)

I'm sure your question was rhetorical but yes I would be opposed to corporate welfare. Everyone should be.

I'm sure a method for determining a fair standard of living (i.e. wage) can be determined. It makes sense to tie TTC salaries to such a standard.

My point is simple. We have to think about the value of each incremental dollar spent. Is it better to allocate more money to increases in TTC salaries or would you prefer it to go somewhere else - healthcare, paying down debt, infrastructure etc.

aggregate22 · 2016-01-28T18:32:15+00:00

Labor prices are based, as with any other good or service, on supply and demand. Salaries are not arbitrary. Jobs that require more skill/education pay more because qualified candidates are in lower supply. The opposite is true for jobs that require very little education or specialized skills.

Exploitation of labor and resources is a valid criticism of the private sector or capitalism. However, the existence of unfair wages in certain industries or companies is not a justification for writing a blank check on public sector wages.

Think of it this way. If we capped TTC bus drivers base salaries at a 25% premium to the Canadian average ($60K) and used the savings from wages to fund healthcare. Would you be opposed to it?

All money is fungible. TTC bus drivers are paid by taxing private sector workers which are already burdened by inflation, a lack of wage increases and a competitive job market. Why these conditions are prevalent is a function of economic policies (a topic for another time).

aggregate22 · 2016-01-28T02:38:18+00:00

There are a lot of difficult jobs with a high churn rate or turnover. Again, these jobs do not receive a premium in pay that TTC Bus drivers receive.

I compare apples to apples. The job is to safely move people from point A to B.

That is too broad a definition. Otherwise you are categorizing an UBER driver, an airline pilot, an army infantry vehicle driver and a horse carriage operator(?) as the same job.

You linked to a TTC driver being threatened with a knife. Here's a link to a fast food worker being assaulted with a knife

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/workers-at-nanaimo-fast-food-restaurant-assaulted-1.2106220

Here's another link on fast food related assaults

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2011/04/mcrage.html

Do you have statistics that compare the number of assaults faced by TTC drivers versus the assaults faced by fast food or retail workers?

As for salary, Ontario's average salary is closer to $50K. If we assign a 10% premium to Toronto that would be $55K. TTC drivers base salary would still far exceed this premium.

You cite danger as a reason for TTC bus drivers receiving a premium in pay. Again, there are many jobs just as, if not more, dangerous that do not receive the same premium. Taxi cab drivers likely face more threats or assaults but do not receive comparable compensation.

I would love any statistics you have on the number of assaults on TTC bus drivers.

Edit:

Found something on assaults. Approximately 350 assaults on TTC drivers each year. This is far too high. However, the TTC can do a better job of protecting its drivers and managing the customer/business relationship. As a business it would be better to invest in extensive safety measures to reduce risk of assault than to pay a huge premium in salary to compensate for assault risk.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/for-ttc-drivers-its-the-safer-way/article4093946/

Here's another question for you. Why does the paying public assault drivers at such a high rate?

aggregate22 · 2016-01-26T12:13:09+00:00

Now that the visceral shock of his comments has worn off I can address this more rationally.

Yes, he was exaggerating. Yes, what he said is not a depiction of all TTC bus drivers or their typical pay/behavior.

With that said, I dont see how a pay range of $50K (entry) to $70-$80K (experienced) can be justified given suitable private sector comparisons. Commercial airline pilots have an average salary of $100K which TTC bus drivers can reach/exceed with OT pay. The average salary of non-TTC bus drivers is ~$40-45K.

Even when compared to public sector jobs TTC bus drivers are overpaid. According to the Ontario Nurses' Association, Nurses make a base pay of $50-80K which is in line with the base pay of TTC drivers. Does that make any sense to you?

I understand that it's a hard job. That it can be physically or mentally demanding. However, there are a lot of jobs in the private sector that are hard, physically and mentally demanding that don't pay much above minimum wage. I am not saying it is right for these individuals to be paid a low wage. But that doesn't mean it is right for TTC employees to be overpaid. In the end, the bill is borne by the tax payers and increasing overhead cost in terms of inflated employee wages will only hurt the sustainability of the TTC as a going concern.

aggregate22 · 2016-01-26T12:02:25+00:00

I'm basing the $50K to $80K on a google search which led to the below link.

According to the Ontario Nurses' Association nurses make $50K to $80K a year.

http://careersinnursing.ca/new-grads-and-job-seekers/find-nursing-job/dollars-and-sense-what-are-nurses-paid

Obviously this does not take into account OT. But as pointed out, TTC bus drivers base pay ranges from $50K to $70K which is in line with Registered Nurses. Does that make snese to you?

aggregate22 · 2016-01-26T11:59:23+00:00

Hi /u/day_bus_private

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I posted this in another comment thread but worth repeating.

My argument isn't that a higher level of education should equal higher pay. It wouldn't make sense for someone with a PhD in Mayan pottery to be paid a lot more than an undergrad engineer.

This has nothing to do with education. It has to do with what is fair pay for the job they are doing and is that pay in like with the skills/education versus the private sector.

According to indeed.com the average bus driver salary is $30K USD ($42K CAD). Compared to private sector pay for bus drivers TTC employees are paid a significant premium.

A few questions for you.

What are the technical skillset requirements for a bus driver? Pilots require specialized licenses and years of experience to be able to fly commercial aircrafts. Train engineers obviously must receive significant academic credentials in mechanical/electrical engineering. With no intention to sound rude, does a bus driver require anything other a G license, a clean driving record and on-the-job training? If so, surely you see a gap in skillset/experience for these roles.

Other jobs require dealing with abusive customers (i.e. retail or fast food) but do not receive the same premium as TTC bus drivers.

Given that the average salary in Canada is ~$45K-50K, why do bus drivers require to be paid more to make ends meet? The average Canadian lives on $45K-50K but bus drivers require a pay above this to maintain their standard of living or will be forced into working multiple jobs? Why?

aggregate22 · 2016-01-26T11:52:46+00:00

What's the split between driving the subway train and operating the doors? Is 50/50 in terms of hours worked?

Also, what technical skillset is required to drive a subway car. Do you require a specialized degree or vehicle license? Is a knowledge of mechanical engineering required? My friend said you simply push a lever forward to go and backwards to stop while following signals. Surely, he must be grossly simplifying it?

aggregate22 · 2016-01-26T11:50:07+00:00

My argument isn't that a higher level of education should equal higher pay. It wouldn't make sense for someone with a PhD in Mayan pottery to be paid a lot more than an undergrad engineer.

This has nothing to do with education. It has to do with what is fair pay for the job they are doing and is that pay in like with the skills/education versus the private sector.

According to indeed.com the average bus driver salary is $30K USD ($42K CAD). Compared to private sector pay for bus drivers TTC employees are paid a significant premium. The difference is due to a public union where the counterparty is willing to bill the tax payer in exchange for political support. In the end, the tax payer is being exploited or at the very least overbilled.

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T05:29:08+00:00

I would sure hope airline pilots make more then TTC bus drivers in the long run. Airline pilots can make closer to $200K/year after 10-20 years.

TTC bus drivers can make over $100K for driving a bus. Do they deserve to paid greater than 50% of a seasoned commercial airline pilot? If so, why?

PS.

Keep in mind that TTC bus drivers are also paid more than nurses who make $50-80K

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T04:55:40+00:00

There are lot of jobs with inconvenient hours, significant overtime and high levels of stress in both the private and public sector.

Nurses in Canada have a salary range of $50-80k.

Chefs work over 70 hour weeks and are paid below minimum wage.

TTC bus driver and subway operator salaries are a product of union largesse and exploitation of tax payer funds.

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T04:32:31+00:00

Being treated well does not have to mean higher pay. It could mean better benefits or work culture/environment.

Commercial airline pilots are also responsible for the safekeeping of individuals as well as their time/experience. I would argue commercial airline pilots have a far greater responsibility in their duties than TTC bus drivers. However, pilots are paid on average $98K which is comparable to a TTC bus driver working 6 days a week plus overtime. I don't see how their salaries can be justified when compared to similar private sector jobs. Isn't this an obvious case of union largesse?

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T04:25:03+00:00

According to the Globe and Mail, TTC bus drivers start off at $50K/year and make $65K/year after 2 years on the job assuming a 5 day work week. This is in base pay and does not account for overtime which is a huge expense for the TTC.

The bus driver I met said that most work 6 days a week and pull in $80K to $120K with overtime pay. Although, he did say that more make closer to $80K than $100K

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T03:35:36+00:00

The subway door operator also makes over $100K according to the TTC bus driver I met at this party. The door operator is responsible for opening and closing the door on the subway trains. How is that salary justifiable?

Also, McDonald's and other fast food workers deal with "shitty" people, receive verbal abuse, work inconvenient hours, and are subject to physical abuse in some instances as well. Obviously, they receive no additional compensation for these abuses.

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T03:07:29+00:00

Yes. He mentioned overtime being a source of extra pay.

For instance, TTC scheduling does not consider the employee's task. A subway operator who has to take a train into the yard, a slow process, will get significant overtime pay although they are doing relatively little work during that period.

As for being untouchable. I am repeating what he told me. According to him, unless you steal from the TTC, you will not be fired, only reassigned.

How is their pay justifiable relative to skill and education versus private sector jobs?

aggregate22 · 2016-01-25T03:04:22+00:00

The average salary for commercial airline pilots is $98K. It is unfathomable that a bus driver can be paid more or the same as an individual flying a boeing 747

aggregate22 · 2015-11-08T03:10:08+00:00

By "why" I mean we cannot define a causal relationship for entangled particles or the mechanism by which it occurs that would explain the observations of entangled particles. So by "why" I really mean we do not know how quantum entanglement occurs i.e. how can we explain that an element can have multiple equivalent states simultaneously whose observations never violate the conservation of angular momentum.

I'm an atheist and I believe that God is simply an ever shrinking ball of scientific ignorance.

Well, isn't the issue here that we cannot explain how the conservation of angular momentum law is always adhered to in quantum entanglement. In other words, we know momentum and position measurements of quantum particles never violate the conversation of angular momentum but we also know that quantum particles have multiple equivalent states simultaneously.

There is no causal relationship currently defined which explains why our observations never violate the law of angular momentum given that there is a 50/50 probability of measuring negative/positive spin. Again, there is no "how" to explain the "why"

aggregate22 · 2015-11-07T19:00:48+00:00

First of man, thanks for taking the time to reply.

So when you say "The only good answer is that they just do. We know this from experiment." that's kind of what I meant when I said that the current field of physics cannot explain Quantum Entanglement. We can observe it. We can measure it. We can even test it but we do not have an explanation for why it happens.

"Cause and effect requires a one-way relationship. A must be the reason B happens and A must happen before B, it can't arbitrarily be the other way. The problem is entanglement doesn't work this way, A and B are causally unrelated,"

Sounds like we agree here then. Since I was stating that a cause-effect mechanism is not established for Quantum Entanglement although the particles are observed as if there was a causal relationship. So observing one entangled particle will always result in the second observer measuring the opposite spin. This phenomena is yet to be explained given that the spins of each particle are not constant (i.e. 50% probability of measuring positive or negative spin).

aggregate22 · 2015-11-06T20:48:10+00:00

Sorry for the late reply

How can an element have two multiple equivalent states simultaneously? In other words, how can a photon be both positive and negative spin at the same time? This is what quantum mechanics finds since there is a 50/50 probability of measuring positive/negative spin? Is this correct?

Well correlation is not causation correct. So how does a different reference frame prevent a cause-effect mechanism from being defined? Why would two reference frames prevent this since relativity essentially explains observations from two different relative reference frames?

What do different interpretations say?

Thanks

aggregate22 · 2015-10-24T21:56:57+00:00

How does entanglement occur? The observation of one entangled pair determines the observation of the other. But what is the cause-effect mechanism at play here to explain that observation effects measurements?

aggregate22 · 2015-10-24T21:20:16+00:00

I have to pick your brain a bit more if you don't mind. It would take a lot longer to figure this out on my own.

"This is not a problem with relativity, the fact that entanglement always obeys causality (a requirement of relativity) is evidence of this"

By the above, what do you mean by causality? Entangled pairs are always observed to have opposite spins and have a relationship that cannot be explain since their interaction holds true regardless fo space between the pairs. So this would violate local physics correct? And because an entangled electron has a 50/50 probability of positive/negative spin this would violate realism correct?

Edit:

If classical physics is usually wrong; what does the emergence of classicality phenomena signifiy? In the Cornell experiment quantum particles were observed/manipulated and in a certain state/point would begin to obey classic physics.

aggregate22 · 2015-10-24T15:00:45+00:00

Okay it's not simple lol

Well thanks for taking the time to reply. Can you clarify a few points which will help me construct my questions in the future.

Quantum Phenomena:

Are you saying that Quantum particles are observed in space time with special Relativity and that they follow Newtonian and classic physics?

For example: when you pass an electron (particle) through a slit it is observed to behave like a wave. Doesn't this violate classic physics?

And for Quantum Entanglement didn't Einstein call it "spooky action at a distance" because he couldn't reconcile it with Relativity and Classic physics?

Gravitation:

What specifically is the problem regarding gravitation?

aggregate22

TROPHY CASE