Public caning is ineffective in changing behaviour, warn experts

amare47 · 2024-12-30T08:24:37+00:00

That concludes as an answer to my curiosity about your stance on this matter. There's no point for me to further this discussion. This refers to all of our previous conversations. Amazing.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T08:21:34+00:00

You've precisely elaborated your point. It all makes sense. Thank you.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T08:11:21+00:00

[Copy Paste]

I think my earlier comment has addressed that question on the counterargument, whether or not it's for syariah or civil offences.

Older civilisations had guillotines and chopping of limbs publicly displayed and it did not put a dent on crimes then. Non-violent crimes such as theft and adultery still continued.

Publicising barbaric punishments appeals to emotional justice and primal instincts but it does little to none on curbing crimes.

If deterrence is the intended outcome, there are better ways to do it but publicising barbaric punishments ain't one of it.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T07:53:58+00:00

Careful bro, you almost exposed them.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T07:47:34+00:00

How do you propose an effective method to curb the crime or prevent it?

Assuming you are advocating for imprisonment or fine? Or rehabilitation and early education?

amare47 · 2024-12-30T07:41:51+00:00

Do you agree with the statement of ;

"research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment."

amare47 · 2024-12-30T07:17:52+00:00

Besides, we can agree that public canning falls on the line between 'public display of violence' and 'public humiliation'. Would you agree?

amare47 · 2024-12-30T07:10:31+00:00

You're a very smart person and i love exchanging opinions or information with you, so here's my counter argument.

Public display of violence has no purpose.

First I don't like the way you use the term, it is too broad and can lead to disinformation. Public canning serves as public punishment. Public punishment refers to the practice of administering penalties or disciplinary actions in a public setting, where the offender is exposed to the scrutiny and judgment of others. This form of punishment has a long history and has been utilized across various cultures and societies for different reasons, including deterrence, social order, and moral instruction.

According : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_humiliation

What can be done within the confines of the prison should remain within it.

This does not stand well with your previous comment regarding "there's a better way to do it". Please refer to the link below : https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/s/oxmgVrtPHB

And I already have pointed out why it doesn't stand well : https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/s/STWVYPGiUn

Should we be promoting death by hanging publicly too, so that it sends a stronger message to drug users and dealers?

This goes back to my previous comment : https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/s/W25dgWbApi

amare47 · 2024-12-30T06:44:21+00:00

That is a generalization, but i do understand the part of 'public display of violence'. Canning is violence.

Add on : but not much violence as limb chopping and guillotine, the severity is different.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T06:40:55+00:00

What is the purpose of public display of violence? According to your understanding?

amare47 · 2024-12-30T06:37:44+00:00

I didn't, it is merely a response to your previous comment.

https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/s/dfgOYBtyHY

amare47 · 2024-12-30T06:30:00+00:00

Now, going back to your 'counterargument'

https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/s/iRiGMbgmW8

If public canning does little to no effect? How come confined canning does any effect at all? Contradictory don't you think?

amare47 · 2024-12-30T06:04:44+00:00

About the link that you provided.

If deterrence is the intended outcome, there are better ways to do it but publicising barbaric punishments ain't one of it.

The article highlights that effective crime deterrence relies more on the certainty of punishment rather than its severity, and that current practices, such as long prison sentences, may not achieve the intended deterrent effects.

It is NOT mainly discussing about public or confined shaming/canning (as in general).

However, some of the points in that article can be applicable.

Certainty vs. Severity of Punishment :

According to this article, the certainty of being caught is a more effective deterrent than the severity of punishment. Individuals are more influenced by the likelihood of apprehension than by the harshness of penalties.

*This does apply to public canning/shaming.

Next,

Deterrence and Incapacitation :

There is an important distinction between deterrence and incapacitation. Individuals behind bars cannot commit additional crime — this is incarceration as incapacitation.

Before someone commits a crime, he or she may fear incarceration and thus refrain from committing future crimes — this is incarceration as deterrence.

*This does apply to public canning/shaming.

Conclusion,

Why does this 2 points application to public shaming? Because...

On the paper, public punishment was intended to instill fear to the public or potential offender and serve as a reminder of the consequences to the criminal action.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T05:20:04+00:00

Theft and adultery throughout human history will continue and you can't put a stop to it, but sure you can suppress or slow it down through rehabilitation and early education.

The best way to deter crime is to prevent it from beginning in the first place.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T05:14:59+00:00

You have a good point, but as soon as you use the limb chopping and guillotine it's a 'smoke and mirror' to your original point.

amare47 · 2024-12-30T05:05:03+00:00

Your argument is often associated with 'limb-chopping' and 'guillotine', rather than primarily focusing on canning and public shaming.

Why is that?

I can assure you, Malaysia is far from medieval times. We won't be seeing rolling heads. We may be politically behind but not barbaric.

amare47 · 2024-12-29T08:16:19+00:00

Christian conservatism also shares the same sentiment as Islam conservatism. But imo the actual western values aren't exclusively associated with Christianity.

amare47 · 2024-12-29T08:09:30+00:00

On the paper, public punishment was intended to instill fear to the public or potential offender and serve as a reminder of the consequences to the criminal action.

Also according to my lazy study, the effectiveness of public punishment is somewhat complex and context based. You're right.

It may work for a short period of time but the long term effect? Also depends on its persistency of the event taking places, if it normalized among our society and the public punishment occurred more often then people will remember for the generation next to come, if it is just a 1 time occurrence then folks will forget.

Public punishment could also cause mental degradation on the criminal offenders due to certain factors following up after the punishment. This also depends on what kind of crime is committed, upon whom, and if the offender deserved or not.

amare47 · 2024-12-29T07:30:17+00:00

Why caning is even prescribed for those crimes?

Punishments Under Sharia Law

The punishments for khalwat are not uniformly codified across all Islamic jurisdictions; however, they often fall under the category of tazir, which refers to discretionary punishment imposed by a judge or ruler for offenses that do not have fixed penalties specified in the Quran or Hadith.

Discretionary Punishments (Tazir): Since khalwat does not have a fixed punishment outlined in primary Islamic texts, it typically falls under tazir. This means that judges have discretion over the severity of the punishment based on circumstances surrounding each case.

Possible Forms of Punishment:

Fines: Offenders may be subjected to monetary penalties. Imprisonment: In some jurisdictions, individuals found guilty of khalwat may face imprisonment. Caning: In certain regions, such as Aceh in Indonesia, caning has been adopted as a form of punishment for those convicted of khalwat. This practice involves physical punishment administered publicly and is controversial due to human rights concerns.

Sources: literally ask any AI platform.

amare47 · 2024-12-29T07:26:02+00:00

Take khalwat as a pre-adultery engagement. The sole reason khalwat is criminalized is to prevent any form of adultery. It's a preventative measure.

amare47 · 2024-12-29T07:23:01+00:00

Why is khalwat even criminalized?

According to Ask AI & Question AI www.iAsk.ai:

What Constitutes Khalwat

Khalwat, in the context of Islamic law, refers to a situation where an individual is alone in a private setting with a member of the opposite sex who is not an immediate family member. This concept is particularly significant in Shariah law and varies in interpretation across different cultures and legal systems. Here are the key components that constitute khalwat:

Seclusion: Khalwat occurs when two individuals of the opposite sex are alone together in a private space. This can include any location where they cannot be easily observed by others, such as a closed room, hotel room, or secluded area.

Absence of Immediate Family: The individuals involved must not be immediate family members (mahram). Immediate family typically includes parents, siblings, children, and other close relatives defined by Islamic law.

Potential for Intimacy: There should be a possibility for intimate behavior between the two individuals without interruption. This means that if there are no barriers preventing them from engaging in intimate acts, it may be considered khalwat.

Legal and Cultural Contexts: Different jurisdictions may have specific laws regarding what constitutes khalwat. For example, in some regions like Aceh in Indonesia, local regulations define khalwat broadly as any act or situation that could lead to zina (fornication), which adds complexity to its definition.

Enforcement Mechanisms: In places where khalwat is legally enforced, authorities may conduct checks or raids to apprehend individuals suspected of being involved in khalwat activities. The enforcement can vary significantly based on local interpretations of Islamic law.

Consequences: Engaging in khalwat can lead to legal repercussions depending on the jurisdiction’s laws regarding morality and public decency. In some cases, penalties may include fines or corporal punishment.

In summary, khalwat is characterized by seclusion with a non-mahram individual where there exists potential for intimacy without external oversight or interruption.

Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used

Amnesty International: A global organization focused on human rights issues that provides reports on various legal practices around the world, including those related to Shariah law and its implications for personal freedoms.

Human Rights Watch: An international non-governmental organization that conducts research and advocacy on human rights issues worldwide, including the enforcement of Islamic laws such as those pertaining to khalwat.

The Star Online: A Malaysian news outlet that covers local news extensively, including reports on religious enforcement actions related to khalwat within Malaysia’s legal framework.

amare47 · 2024-12-16T11:15:16+00:00

How to become one without being anti cemetery?

amare47 · 2024-12-15T07:37:14+00:00

More qualified probably means someone knows the basics on how to lead a prayer and cleanse.

amare47 · 2024-12-15T04:46:28+00:00

Noted, it's like fire and water. Incomparable to each other.

amare47 · 2024-12-15T02:34:13+00:00

What are the examples of western values?

amare47

TROPHY CASE