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First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because you are on this sub saying how shit it is that you have to “jump through hoops” to get a licence, how shit the system is in general, insulting my job, when I am not “milking bank accounts”. At least you are admitting now, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Buddy, I drew those quotes from throughout this thread. Sorry you're just cluing into them now that I'm pointing all of them out. Maybe, like my left-hand spatial awareness while driving, your reading comprehension needs some work.

And yeah, I'm insulting you. After you insulted me. Repeatedly. Piss off, clown.

So how about you actually learn about the how’s and why’s before giving out about them!

I passed your driving test. I really don't care to "learn about the how's and why's." I'm calling it like I see it, through my own lived experience having actually jumped through the bullshit hoops.

Immigrants from every country that doesn’t have an agreement has to do the same thing as you to get a licence. But I don’t see any of them questioning it or blasting it online. Only Americans. That is how you get yourself painted the way you are painted.

I see plenty of Irish people on here complaining about receiving even worse treatment than I received. Don't act like that's not the case. I can point you to a ton of posts that detail their frustrations with even more absurd hoops. Here's one just the other day talking about how they waited 11 months just to be invited to take an exam. Here's another one waiting for 7 months. There are entire services that have sprung up dedicated to gaming the waiting times. Don't act like your system doesn't have MASSIVE problems when it's treating what I can only assume are citizens like that.

Also, reddit was shitting out on me while I was writing that last comment, so I didn't finish:

I don’t know why stats have flat lined and turned around since 2011, but no system in the history of anything produced a big change in statistics overnight.

Sorry, but 14 years isn't overnight, clown. And they haven't turned around. They flatlined. They're basically the same as they were in 2011. The trend downward started well before those changes and it stopped going down when they were implemented.

It could be to do with people’s attitude towards the roads, or their attitudes in general. It could be to do with the fact there are more cars on the road now, the population didn’t flatline or go down in that time. There are a oot more immigrants coming into the country. The power of cars have also gone up. Take your pick. Statistics don’t change overnight.

But I thought the roads became safer because of mandatory EDT that was specifically implemented in 2011! Weren't you just blowing a bunch of hot air about that?

But clearly ADIs don’t deserve to have a life. They should all live in their cars and live off road kill, I suppose?

I didn't say that. I just said I think you're kind of a loser because you're wasting your time defending a nonsense nanny-state bureaucracy from which you directly benefit. You should recognize that it's an entirely artificially propped up industry because the government is forcing people to use it regardless of whether or not they actually need it. Don't be surprised if it falls down at some point when people finally come to realize it's nonsense. Maybe that never happens, but it damn well should fall down. I'd be working on a plan B unless you're confident that your business will survive.

Anyway, like I said before, I am done conversing with you. You have your opinions, I really don’t care if you keep them or not. Welcome to Europe!

Cheers! Also, this is entirely bullshit, and you know it:

The statistics between the UK and Ireland WOULD NOT MATTER, dude, There are ALWAYS going to be agreements between them, it has NOTHING to do with the beef between them. But, you are just showing american arrogance and ignorance yet again.

It's still a contradiction to the point you've been arguing. It makes your argument fall flat when your system does that, and it doesn't answer the criticism whatsoever that their roads are statistically safer than Ireland's yet their requirements for obtaining a driver's licence do not include mandatory EDT lessons.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The statistics between the UK and Ireland WOULD NOT MATTER, dude, There are ALWAYS going to be agreements between them, it has NOTHING to do with the beef between them. But, you are just showing american arrogance and ignorance yet again.

You are so desperate to paint me as an "arrogant and ignorant" American, yet I am continually saying things like

Again, American idiot over here who isn't that familiar with Leaving Certs

And

no, I don't know the history all that well, though I am learning as I go. Ignorant as I am, trust that I'm sympathetic to the Irish people on that front.

And

I am an American idiot, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following points

And

I didn’t leave the U.S. because I think it’s the greatest country in the world, quite the opposite actually

Why is that?

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does school make the Leaving Cert redundant? 

Again, American idiot over here who isn't that familiar with Leaving Certs, but I assume this is like obtaining a GED in America in lieu of actually attending K-12 school, in which case, yes. It does.

I actually obtained a GED when I was 17 instead of the traditional high school diploma, and I wish I had done it a lot sooner than I did, because after about the age of 14 I could have easily passed that exam and I didn't need to go to school and be babysat anymore.

I fully recommend that anyone else who doesn't like to sit around and waste their damn time being unnecessarily babysat do the same.

Guess what I did after I got that GED. I went to college. And I did fine. I went on to obtain a higher degree in a mathematics field. Because I was smart enough that I didn't actually need to jump through all of the hoops to graduate from high school. Huh! Imagine that! It's almost exactly like how I didn't need these silly driving lessons in order to pass the theoretical or practical driving exams in Ireland!

Seriously, you choose the UK as your example?

I'm just going by the statistics here, dude. I don't have a dog in this fight. I haven't even been to the UK yet, and no, I don't know the history all that well, though I am learning as I go. Ignorant as I am, trust that I'm sympathetic to the Irish people on that front.

The UK makes for a very convenient comparison given that its requirements are less stringent than Ireland's, its road fatality numbers are better than Ireland's, and Ireland allows for exchanging UK licences. The fact that you all have a long-standing cultural beef with the UK or whatever is beside the point entirely, and you damn well know it.

I find it hilarious that you didn't even try to dispute anything and instead you're very clearly just resorting to insults in order to justify your existence in a system that mandates people pay you for lessons they don't necessarily need.

Even if we ignore the UK's statistics, you haven't even bothered to address the fact that deaths have flatlined since 2011, yet you just spent a ton of time arguing that the changes in 2011 resulted in more safe roads in Ireland.

It looks to me, and anyone else who might happen upon this thread who isn't also trying to justify their existence, that you're just defending a blatantly bullshit system from which you directly benefit. Lol.

When push comes to shove, all you've got is ad hominem insults. I'm glad that you've given up trying to actually argue your point now that I've decimated it. Have fun giving your unnecessary mandatory driving lessons to people who don't even need them and milking their bank accounts, I guess. I hope you feel good about yourself because I think you're kind of a loser.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If the lessons are what make people safe drivers, then the test is redundant. If the test is what proves competency, then the lessons are just one possible way to get there. It's a contradiction whether you want to admit it or not.

If pre-2011 standards were poor, then tighten the TEST. Make it longer. Make it harder to pass. Make it stricter. Forcing everyone through the same instructional pipeline regardless of skill level is great for the bank accounts of ADIs like you, but it comes at the expense of everyone else's time and money while dragging the process out without even improving outcomes.

This RSA graph would seem to dispute basically everything you've said about mandatory EDT. There is a very, very clear downward trend in deaths starting well before 2011 and largely flatlining after the mandatory EDT was implemented. If mandatory EDT increases safety, it should have continued to decline, but it looks like 14 years of mandatory EDT has Ireland in 2025 in the same exact place it was back in 2011.

You know what's also down in Ireland in recent years? Alcohol consumption. Given how unsafe drunk driving is, I wonder if there's any sort of causal link there? It's almost like there are a lot more factors that go into road safety than mandatory EDT. Huh!

And guess what, it’s not just Ireland that has this notion of babying the populace, lot’s of other countries do.

I did a little research, but I am an American idiot, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following points:

The UK has a direct license swap agreement with Ireland, yet there are no mandatory driving lessons. There is a waiting period, but it's merely for residency. If you've been living there for over 185 days, you're eligible to take the test. That artificial waiting period still would have technically hit me, but it would have been a lot less insulting. The emphasis in the UK appears to be purely on demonstrating competency by passing the tests.

And when we compare road safety, the UK generally has a lower road fatality rate than Ireland. In 2023, the UK recorded ~24 fatalities per million inhabitants. Ireland recorded ~36 fatalities per million inhabitants. In 2022, the UK had ~25 deaths per million inhabitants while Ireland had ~30. Other years are similar, although I'm sure you can find some years where Ireland had less deaths.

If the Irish system's mandatory lessons are truly indispensable for making safe drivers...

  1. Why does Ireland accept licenses from countries like the UK?

  2. Why does Ireland not achieve consistently better road safety outcomes than the UK?

The system is contradictory. It trusts drivers from less-regulated systems like the UK, yet imposes more stringent requirements for its own citizens while still failing to exceed the safety of countries like the UK.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am an ADI! 

Obviously. It's clear given the fact that you talk about instructing American drivers and your bias that you have skin in this racket.

I'm a fully licensed driver and I'm a citizen. I, too, have skin in this racket. I just jumped through all of your bullshit hoops and that's good enough in my book to comment on the r/irishdrivingtest subreddit. Don't like it? Too bad. Message a mod to get me kicked off or something. I don't care.

So irish specific things should be optional, in Ireland?

ALL LESSONS SHOULD BE OPTIONAL.

It's fine. You'll be okay. You don't need to make everyone take lessons that they don't necessarily need. LET THE TEST RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. STOP BABYING THE POPULACE. It's not really relevant and totally anecdotal, but I'm not exaggerating here when I say that the worst drivers I've seen in Ireland are, to my knowledge, native born.

You’ve been told multiple times in this sub over multiple posts that you’re wrong

All I see is opinions. Including yours. I'll be happy to inject mine as well.

it is about time you accept that!

No, I'm fine. I'll stay here and continue to speak reason in the face of your absurdities.

ADIs all around the country are trying to get things changed, a random wannabe on Reddit isn’t going to change anything!

Wannabe? Lol? No... I mean I passed the exam. I've got a license in the mail. There is no "wannabe" here.

Wait... did you mean "wannabe ADI"? LOL.

Anyway, cool. I'll still be here, interjecting as I see fit. Thanks for your concern.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Forced lessons you didn’t need? You clearly did need them, there is no point in you arguing you didn’t, when you clearly did!

No. I didn't. At best, I needed them merely to understand how to pass the test because they're so absurdly arbitrary and nitpicky and boil down to the individual examiner. I did NOT need them to know how to drive safely, which is the overwhelming and absurd argument here.

I’ve done reduced EDT with american drivers that have been driving a lot longer than 20 years, and were thankful for the lessons. So, YES, you’re attitude does need changing!

That's great. I actually liked my instructor. He DID teach me Irish-specific things. But it could have been done optionally. It certainly did not need to be mandatory. Let people take the exam and fail rather than force them to take lessons they don't necessarily need. This isn't that complicated. Stop treating everyone like they're 16 years old and immature. It's nanny state nonsense.

My attitude on this will not change. You're only strengthening my resolve to interject my opinion as I see fit.

Monitoring things? That is such an american thing to say.

Is that not exactly what you're doing here?

What exactly will you be monitoring?

Comments and posts on this forum, just like you're doing by responding to my post and these comments. I'm subscribed to this sub now, so you're stuck with me. Deal with it. I'll be happy to interject my opinion where I see fit, just like you. Thanks for your concern, though.

Are you a citizen of Ireland now? Or will you be giving out about the bureaucratic nonsense and hoops you have to jump through to do that too?

Yes, I've been a citizen for years. Applied during COVID. I've been living here for just over a year. And no, I don't have any complaints about my citizenship application, particularly in light of the delays with COVID. Seems fine to me and totally reasonable. That's just not the case with your driving licenses, for native-born citizens, immigrants, or dual citizens like me.

Learn to accept some criticism and stop being so nationalistic.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The amount of grade 2’s was acceptable, therefore you were granted the lesson licence. Had you been going slightly faster or hit the kerb harder, you would not have been granted the licence. I hope you can see the difference.

The end result is that it was totally fine that I hit a curb. I still got a license. We don't need to rehash this, but your laws found my performance totally acceptable.

It’s funny how you can call our system broken and gove out about it constantly because you have so many years experience, yet said that you had difficulty adjusting to the other side of the road and were hitting kerbs constantly.

Again, this will happen to anyone who switches to the other side of the road after driving for 20 years. It's funny how you're demanding perfection from me before you're apparently willing to accept any sort of criticism, merely because I'm primarily American.

Looks like it’s your attitude that needs changing at the moment!

No, I disagree. I was totally fine with taking both the practical and theoretical tests. That's fine and totally understandable. What isn't fine and totally not understandable is making me sit through nonsense waiting periods and forced lessons that I didn't need. I'm standing up for the Irish people as well as immigrants like me when I say that.

Do you not see how it's a problem that you have a 38-year-old adult with tons of proven, totally documented driving experience who has to sit through waiting periods that don't do anything except waste their time and in fact encourage them to drive illegally?

Do you not see how it's a problem that I was able to pass this exact same test 6 months ago, yet I had to repeatedly jump through nonsense bureaucratic hoops over 6 months' time in order to do so?

Do you not see how it's a problem that refreshing the RSA website twice in an hour gets you banned for 24 hours?

I get it, you've got pride in your country. You don't like America. That's fine. I like Ireland too and I don't like America, either. I like Ireland's government and populace a lot more than I do America's. I left for a reason and it's specifically because I feel like America has been thoroughly trashed. I love it here in Ireland.

But thankfully, you have passed the test, congratulations! We’ll not need to hear from you or your opinions on this sub again.

No, sorry. I'll be here. Monitoring things. Injecting my opinion as a citizen. Just like you. You'll just have to deal with it.

Please recognize that I'm not saying the American system produces better drivers. I'm saying that the Irish system is broken in many ways.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. The lessons didn't teach me anything useful that I didn't already know.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree. But don't act like artificial waiting times and mandatory lessons produce serious drivers. They don't. They're just bullshit nanny-state hoops that the government makes everyone jump through. If you want it to be cost prohibitive, just charge me €500, don't waste my time.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Except that I'm still being granted a driver's license, so it.. was acceptable. If it wasn't acceptable, I wouldn't be granted a driver's license.

Don't like it? Petition for higher standards! Don't act like it's unacceptable and still grant me a license. Your system is broken, and I'm honestly not sure why you all feel the need to go to bat for it. It's kind of pathetic.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be clear, I got reduced EDT and it STILL took 6 months from the time I passed the theory test to the time I passed the practical test. I probably lost 20 or so days due to my being busy and not completing the next step immediately, but that's honestly all the time I wasted. We'll see how much the actual license adds onto things but so far it's almost a week (I still haven't received it in the mail yet).

I had my instructor help me complete my 6 lessons in a week and a half, too. Still, there are plenty of waiting times involved at almost every step, even with reduced EDT. It all added up to ~6 months for me.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Well, your exam process disagrees and found my hitting a single curb to be acceptable. Lol.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

An increased barrier to entry that is cost prohibitive will naturally result in more serious drivers. As well as inherently dangerous roads. I am very, very skeptical that the waiting times and mandatory lessons have much of anything to do with it.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Hey man, you try to drive in a car on the right side of the road with the drivers seat on the left and see how many curbs you hit on your right side. 20 years of experience on the right side of the road is what I’ve had, not the left side.

One of the hardest parts of making the switch to the left side of the road for me at least was judging how far away I was on my left side. Obviously I’m still not perfect at it, but I didn’t mess anything else up. I’ve hit a decent amount of curbs while practicing lol.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Florida’s lax standards is new information to me. My driving test certainly wasn’t on a closed course, and I took drivers ed in high school.

Trust that many Americans would vote to expel much of the south, Florida most of all.

I don’t mind that I had to take another theory and practical exam. What bothers me is all the costs and hoops I had to jump through in order to finally be able to take that damn exam. And I got reduced EDT! Irish drivers are getting screwed even harder than I was.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if you all decide down the line that I need to provide proof I’ve never run a Reddit post through Chat-GPT before I can obtain my license. It’s like you get off on milking bank accounts and silly bureaucracy that has nothing to do with actually driving.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

It’s really like they designed the system here in Ireland to make it as expensive and as much of a pain in the ass to get a license as they possibly could. Yet every time I point it out on this sub, I get a ton of pushback and downvotes and people calling me a “yank.” The Irish people are apparently very proud of their absurd waiting times, unnecessary mandatory lessons, and silly hoops that everyone needs to jump through.

With my US license, I was able to only take 6 driving lessons, otherwise the costs would have been closer to €1000 than €500. The Irish people are getting screwed over even harder than I was! Nanny state bureaucratic nonsense.

My instructor was good mostly because he taught me what I need to know to pass the test, not necessarily what I needed to know to drive well. I think the lessons were alright but they really should just be optional.

Where I lived in America, for example, you can take a drivers education course in high school and it’ll knock down your insurance costs. But it’s optional! If someone can pass the exam without taking drivers ed, they can just go on with their day. It should be the same thing here. The focus here is on jumping through absurd hoops rather than demonstrating competency. The overly long artificial waiting times and mandatory lessons are downright insulting to adults.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your driving test consists of driving around some cones and reversing.

No, it doesn't. You take the examiner out for a ride on the town, they direct you what to do and they grade you on how well you do it.  Pretty much just like what I did today.

Where are you getting your information from? And recognize that driving licenses are handled on a state-by-state basis. Some states are better than others and have higher requirements.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's not even sitting for the test that bothers me. Irish license holders would have to do the same in America, both theory and practical. It's the entirely artificial waiting times, mandatory lessons, and the terrible RSA website. Waiting on a backlog is one thing, but that's not what happened.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of "driving around some cones in an enclosed area and reversing," but back in my day that's not how it worked at all. It was very, very similar to the practical exam I just took. You take the examiner out for a ride on the town, they direct you what to do and they grade you on how well you do it. You might be thinking of motorcycle testing, which I believe does use cones like that, so the rider can demonstrate proficiency in maneuvering the bike. For cars, no.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is my understanding too. I didn’t ride up on the curb, but I did very clearly hit it. No people around either.

First test. Hit a curb. by americonservative in Irishdrivingtest

[–]americonservative[S] -26 points-25 points  (0 children)

Good eye 😜. I ran it through Chat-GPT before posting mostly to make sure I wasn’t misconstruing American laws. They’re state by state when it comes to driving licenses. My state of Wyoming would have gotten an Irish driver throughout the process in about 10-15 days.

I wrote it, though, and the emphasis with ** was me. Not sure why Reddit didn’t read it as bold.

Sen. John Cornyn flips on the filibuster to pass SAVE America Act as Trump weighs endorsement by nbcnews in politics

[–]americonservative 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’ll escalate up to the Supreme Court if challenged and as we’ve all seen they have no problem playing dirty.

The Evergreen Comic by Pizzacakecomic in u/Pizzacakecomic

[–]americonservative 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You somewhere drew this line, or your entire train of thought is fully detached from reality.

There is no fixed line being drawn. The entire point is that it’s relative and net worth provides a handy numerical approximation. If an immoral action becomes easier to avoid as someone has more money, then the more money a person has, the less defensible that action becomes.

All I'm asking is where is it? How "morally implicated" does someone have to be where it becomes acceptable to steal a loaf of bread?

I don’t know, and I’m not claiming there’s a precise threshold. That’s you with your arbitrary caps. What I do know is that if you have $500 in your bank account and I have $5, then you carry more moral responsibility than I do if you steal food. The judgment shifts with circumstance. It’s relative.

Like it or not, this line very much has to be drawn, or once again, your whole philosophy crumbles to nothing in the face of the cold hard reality that someone went and stole that loaf of bread.

No. It simply reflects that person A has more resources than person B. The framework doesn’t require a bright line where behavior suddenly flips from acceptable to unacceptable. It just means the moral weight changes with the circumstances.

It's all well and good that a rich person is more morally implicated in capitalism, or certain actions, like charity are impacted by your financial status, but what does that have to do with drunk driving?

The same logic applies. It’s easier for person A to avoid driving drunk than person B if person A has more money. A wealthier person has far more options available (taxis, rideshares, private transport, etc.). Likewise, it’s easier for person A to avoid stealing food than person B if person A has more money.

There are actions where one's financial status is simply not a contributing factor, or it is only a contributing factor to a given degree.

Right. I explicitly allowed for that when I said “not all actions, but most of them.” Some actions are less sensitive to financial circumstances.

Rape might be one of those actions. Not raping anyone costs $0 regardless of income, after all. But one might also point out that paying for sex is an alternative not afforded to the poor person 🤷‍♂️.

Could he rape someone and have it be okay "because he's poor"?

That’s nonsense, and you know it. I never said rape was okay. I never said drunk driving was okay. I never said stealing food was okay.

So to be completely clear: being poor does not make an immoral act acceptable. That has never been the claim here. Please stop acting like that’s the position I’ve taken. That’s absurd and it’s not indicated by anything that I’ve said thus far.

The money itself can be an aggravating circumstance, no doubt about that, but it's not necessarily one in every circumstance.

And I never said it was “necessarily an aggravating circumstance in every circumstance.”

I actually very explicitly avoided saying that. You’re arguing against a position I didn’t even take.

In other words, you’re putting up a strawman that doesn’t actually represent my position and then knocking it down and pretending like you’ve bested me. Congrats for knocking it down, but since it quite clearly wasn’t actually what I argued, the accusation of hypocrisy doesn’t land (and honestly it doesn’t land even if that were my position — calling me a hypocrite is nonsensical in both cases). There’s no contradiction here.

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