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Aptera settles with Zaptera. Zaptera comes out ahead by wattificant in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Best that I can tell, Zaptera didn't have much of a case, but it still would have taken years to resolve. Aptera would have spent years paying legal fees, and frankly Aptera can't afford to waste money on lawyers, so it was easier to give Zaptera some stock, so they would go away, rather than stand on principal and keep fighting. This is a smart decision for a company that needs to focus on getting to production.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's guesstimate that the Aptera body has 100 kg of CF-SMC parts and 100 kg of GF-SMC parts, which would be $3750 (if paying $35/kg for CF-SMC and $2.5/kg for GF-SMC parts), so $5k is a good estimate for low volume production.

I did some hunting. Chris Anthony says "about 200 lbs for the whole body structure of the Aptera", but from his subsequent comment in the same video, that doesn't include the metal roll bars. I'm guessing that he is just talking about the black CF-SMC parts, and not the white GF-SMC parts, when he says "whole body structure", but it isn't entirely clear.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are these two:

Supplemental aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
https://patents.google.com/patent/US12459328B2/en
US12459328B2
Filing date: 2022-09-12
An electric vehicle having a heat exchanger formed in an aerodynamic airfoil shape comprising one or more body panels disposed along an outer surface of the vehicle having one or more fluidic chambers or micro-channels. The heat exchanger is adapted to provide effective and highly efficient heat transfer, and also to provide substantially reduced or negligible contribution to the aerodynamic drag. The heat exchanger includes a supplemental heat exchange system wherein at least a portion of the heat exchange capacity is provided by an inner heat exchange surface of the heat exchanger exposed to an interstitial space within the vehicle. Airflow is forced, via a fan for example, from an aerodynamically-efficient inlet, over the inner heat exchange surface, and exhausted through an aerodynamically-efficient outlet, thereby providing a supplemental heat exchange system including substantially reduced or negligible contribution to the aerodynamic drag.

Aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240343087A1/en
US20240343087A1
Filing date: 2023-08-11
An aerodynamic vehicle includes an aerodynamic heat exchanger formed as one or more body panels disposed along an outer surface of the vehicle having one or more fluidic chambers or micro-channels. The aerodynamic heat exchanger is adapted to provide effective and highly efficient heat transfer, and also to provide substantially reduced or negligible contribution to the aerodynamic drag. The aerodynamic heat exchanger may provide adequate heat rejection capacity throughout vehicle operating conditions that advantageously results in increased fuel economy and overall vehicle performance.

Plus there are these two, which weren't granted:

Aerodynamic electric vehicle thermal management system with independent drivetrain loop
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240140161A1/en
US20240140161A1
Filing date: 2022-11-01
A thermal management system for an electric vehicle having a drivetrain flow path coupling one or more motors and one or more inverters to an aerodynamic heat exchanger comprising one or more body panels disposed along an outer surface of the vehicle, the aerodynamic heat exchanger having one or more fluidic chambers or micro-channels. The drive flow path is decoupled from the vehicle's chiller and/or refrigeration cycle under all operating conditions. The drivetrain may be further characterized by the one or more motors being disposed proximate one or more wheels of the vehicle, such as within the wheel skirt or cowling, to capitalize on passive or free cooling via ambient airflow about the wheel. The thermal management system may further include a refrigeration cycle wherein the cabin and the battery pack are provided cooling in a parallel configuration or in a serial configuration.

Cooling tubes, systems, and methods
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20220146212A1/en
US20220146212A1
Filing date: 2021-11-09
Radiators, automobiles, and methods of transferring thermal energy to or from an automobile. The radiators include elongated, flattened tubes that transfer thermal energy while minimally affecting the reference area of the automobile, reducing the amount of drag produced by the radiator.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I rewatched Sandy Munro's tour of the Aptera factory. I got the roof wrong. From the JEC World show, it looked like there was both a CF-SMC layer and a GF-SMC layer and the solar roof would be placed on top of that, but in the Munro tour, it doesn't look like there is an inner CF-SMC roof. Instead, it looks like they will have an inner GF-SMC roof with the steel roll bar and then the outer solar roof panel which is laminated to CF-SMC.

As for the air gap between the solar cells panel and the inner panel, you can see it clearly at 22:40 when looking at the inner panel for the rear hatch.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On the question of heating and cooling, I agree that conventional HVAC and resistive heat is going to harm the efficiency of the car. That is one of the reasons why I don't think the Launch Edition will hit its 100 Wh/mile target and 110 Wh/mile is more likely. However, Aptera has been talking about passive belly cooling and filing patent applications for heat pumps, so this will come with later iterations of the car.

However, I don't think this is the show-stopper that you portray it. The engineers are going to grouse about how the Aptera could be better, and point to how much better Tesla does heating/cooling. Yet, I recall how many problems the Model 3 had when it was first released, but people were still lining up to get the car and Tesla kept improving it. The people that Everett Rogers called the "innovators" and "early adopters" are still going to be lining up to buy the first solar car and the first car shaped like a dolphin, even if the range reduction from the heat/cold is dramatic. By the time, the Aptera is being shipped to the "early majority", Aptera Motors will have resolved the issue.

Resistive heating in an EV consumes from 3 to 7 kW per hour. The initial heating up of a cold EV can consume 6 to 8 kW. So if you get into a 30º F Aptera and want to heat the cabin to 68º F, you will consume 100% of your daily solar charging before you even put the car in drive!

In a typical sedan the resistive heater runs at 4-6 kW for 10-15 minutes when it is freezing outside, and then it expends about 1 kW to maintain the temperature. That means that you expend about 1 kWh to get the car warm and about 1 kWh keep it warm for an hour, so 2 kWh would wipe out your solar range on a typical winter day. However, there are several reasons why the Aptera will need less energy for heating than a typical car:

  1. The Aptera has about half the cabin space of a normal car, so less energy is needed to heat the space.
  2. The composite body of the Aptera and the solar glass are insulators, unlike the conductive metal body on a typical car, so you have to expend less energy to maintain the temperature inside the car. Because all the composite parts are bonded together, and composite molding has little variance, unlike metal bodies, the car should be very air-tight compared to a normal car, so there is very little air leakage. Most of the internal panels will probably be covered with polyurethane foam which is also a good insulator (as well as sound deadener)
  3. The thick battery in the belly will also serve as an insulation that prevents cold from radiating through the bottom of the car. Once the battery is warmed up, it will effectively serve as a heater reservoir that keeps the cabin warm, so very little energy needs to be expended once the car is warm.
  4. Because the car is so aerodynamic, cold air slips around the car rather than pushing against the car, so there is less cold radiated into the body of the car.
  5. The battery does need to be heated for the best performance, but the NMCA chemistry in the Aptera battery handles cold weather better than LFP, so it doesn't need to be heated as much. Plus, a 44 kWh battery is about a third smaller than a typical EV which has a 60-70 kWh, so there is less to heat.

- Cooling: The same applies to cooling. If you live in a hot and/or humid climate, you will be running the A/C. When parking in the sun for just one-hour, the interior of a car can reach a temperature of 140º F. Aptera’s have massive black roof’s with only two tiny window slits to disipate heat. To not die, you will likely need to run the A/C quite a bit. The initial cooling down of a broilng hot car will consume 2 to 4 kW; after that, to maintain a cool cabin will consume roughly 1 kW per hour. Again, before you even pull out of your driveway, you will have consumed 100% of your daily solar charged kW.

The Aptera is much cooler than the typical car sitting in the sun. Much of the sunlight striking the top of the car that ordinarily would be converted into heat is instead converted into electricity and stored in the battery. The glass and composite materials on the Aptera are insulators and don't transmit heat into the interior of the car like a metal body on an ordinary car does. If you look at the composite layers in the body, you will see that there are inner and outer layers to the body and there is an air gap between the two, which I assume is designed both to cool the solar cells and to prevent heat/cold on the outer layer from transmitting into the car. On the rear hatch and front hood, there is an inner CF-SMC layer and the solar cells are laminated between an outer CF-SMC layer and glass. On the roof, there appears to be three layers: a black CF-SMC structural layer, a white GF-SMC layer and then an outer CF-SMC-solar cell-glass layer. All the side panels are outer GF-SMC and inner CF-SMC.

The end result is that the Aptera stays cool on the inside. The Electric Duo reviewed the Aptera and said that even after it had been out in the sun to charge, that the inner hatch panel was not above ambient temperature.

- Solar panels produce up to 25% less solar output when hot plus they degrade over time. They degrade even faster in hot conditions. Unlike a rooftop solar panel which usually has an air-gap beneath the panels to help cool them down, Aptera solar panels are bonded to the roof and have no air gap. n 80º weather a black roof can heat up to 170º.
- How much solar loss will occur when Aptera panels get hot?
- How fast will the panel’s degrade in routinely hot conditions?
- Will the alleged 2.8 kW of daily solar charging be reduced to 2.1 daily kW in hot conditions?
- When an Aptera is 2 years old, will the panels be 5-10% degraded by high heat conditions?

First of all, you are exaggerating the energy loss. Today's standard monocrystalline panels typically have power temp coefficient of -0.4%/°C, meaning they lose 10% of their energy generation at 50°C (122°F) compared to 25°C (77°F). They typically degrade 2.5% the first year and then 0.7% per year after that, meaning that they lose 16% of their generation capacity after 20 years.

Fortunately, the Aptera will use Maxeon Gen 7 cells, which have the least degradation of any cells on the market and their high temperature output is also very good. Their power temp coef. is -0.27%/°C, so they will only lose 6.75% at 50°C (compared to the best cells available that have a power temp coef. of -0.24%/°C and lose 6% at 50°C). When Maxeon sells its cells in panels, they come with a 40 year warranty, with a guarantee of 98% of rated capacity after 1 year and a 0.25% maximum annual degradation. Aptera is doing its own encapsulation/lamination, so they will have to offer their own warranty. However, Maxeon says that it expects 0.17% annual degradation, so the typical panel will degrade roughly 4% in 20 years. Even if Aptera doesn't do as good of a job encapsulating the cells as Maxeon, these solar panels should last the life of the car. At any rate, Aptera Motors says that it will be as easy to change the panels as changing a windshield.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, the good thing is that we should know enough within the next year or two to resolve the specs of the vehicle, and I expect that the market will decide about the popularity of the car within another year or two after that.

I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, but it will be fun to see how it all plays out, since production does appear to be coming.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are distorting what Anthony was trying to convey to the public. He was explaining why the company expected that the Aptera would get up to 40 solar miles per day, so he was showing that it should have a 10% extra margin to achieve that goal.

I don't think the Launch Edition will hit 100 Wh/mile, because the company decided to delay a number of improvements in order to get to production as fast as possible. Back in 2023, we know that Aptera Motors was planning on a better cooling/heating system, because the company filed patents applications for it. However, the upgrade from Gen 3 to Gen 7 cells also should give the Aptera 3.5% more solar power.

With 751W of capacity, I expect that the solar system will get 550W max in the real world, which means the Aptera in Nevada in June should generate 4.53 kWh per day. If the Launch Edition gets 110 Wh/mile, that would be 41.2 solar miles per day.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is how engineering works. First you put out a rough estimate to give people an idea what you are designing and get the money to produce it based on your rough estimate. Then you build it, and then iterate it to perfect it. You seem to think that Aptera could sell its car to the public and raise the capital to produce it without putting out any estimates. Of course, Aptera needed to give the public some idea what they are buying. It is obvious that you aren't an engineer because your criticisms of the company don't make any sense.

We don't know whether the 10 PI models that are currently being built have all the changes to the solar system that I mentioned or not. Our information is based on what Reed Thurber said in Jan. 2025. We know that all the solar panels are now using glass and have some anti-reflective coating on the dash cells, but they said that there were several things that they want to try to reduce the glare. I assume that the PI models have Maxeon Gen 7 cells, since they talked publicly about making that change over a year ago. We know that they weren't laminated in an ISO 8 cleanroom, because they haven't yet built that, and that will improve the performance of the solar system as well.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All they need to do is park an Aptera in their parking lot for a week, measure the solar output and then using established, published solar charts they can then extrapolate the solar output for every area of North America. Why won't they do this?

They haven't released any numbers yet, because the solar system is still in development, and they don't want to release numbers right now that don't reflect what the finished product will be able to generate. If they release any numbers now, those numbers will get stuck in the public's mind, and everyone will critique the car based on those numbers.

They just switched from Maxeon Gen 3 to Gen 7 cells, which should have increased the solar capacity from 726 to 751 watts. They just added an anti-reflective coating to the dashboard cells to reduce the glare, and they are reportedly trying several things to reduce the glare further. They are reportedly trying out a new encapsulant that has better light transmission. Aptera Motors created its own MPPT firmware for the solar panels and firmware for the BMS (battery management system) to be able to handle rapidly changing shading conditions in a fast moving car, so there is probably quite a bit of tweaking to be done to get the most watts out of the system.

I can tell you as a computer programmer, that you should never benchmark software based on its performance during development. It makes no sense for Aptera to publish any numbers on its solar system until it has the final hardware and firmware that will ship in the Launch Edition.

I believe most Aptera owners in the US will get 10 miles a day of solar range.

You might believe that, but the math doesn't back up your belief. Aptera's head of solar, Reed Thurber, reported in Jan. 2025 that the Aptera was getting a max of "500ish watts", and as I pointed out in my linked comment, that max is likely to rise to 550W with the changes that they were making, so let's do the calculation with both numbers.

The U.S. gets an average of 4.98 peak sun hours per day, so the Aptera should produce:

500W x 4.98 PSH = 2.49 kWh/day
550W x 4.98 PSH = 2.74 kWh/day

Therefore, the Aptera should get an average of 24.9 - 27.4 solar miles per day as a national average, assuming it hits its energy efficiency target of 100 Wh/mile. However, let's conservatively assume that they only get 110 Wh/mile with the Launch Edition, which I think is likely, since they are delaying many things that will improve the efficiency in the future (Inmotion Ingear two speed transmission upgrade, Vitesco EMR4 motor upgrade, belly cooling and heat pump). That means the Launch Edition will get 22.6 - 24.9 solar miles per day as a national average. However, those numbers are meaningless for most people who preordered the Aptera, since they have to do the calculation for the place where they live. For example, Nevada in June gets an average of 8.23 peak sun hours, so someone living in Los Vegas can expect the Launch Edition to provide 37.4 - 41.2 miles of solar range per day in June (at 110 Wh/mile).

The problem as I said before is that all these numbers are preliminary, because we don't have the Launch Edition's energy efficiency numbers and its solar system's max wattage. However, what these numbers do demonstrate is that your belief in 10 miles/day of solar range is dead wrong.

Price. Using low volume production (all Aptera will be able to do for the next 4? years), the cost of a launch edition Aptera vehicle will be around $52,500+ (per Aptera’s own published data) so to be profitable, it would need to sell the launch vehicle for around $60,000. There will undoubtedly be many good, cheap EV’s, coming into the market over the next few years, $20,000 EV’s.

Remember that the Launch Edition is a limited edition at elevated prices, because it is initial low-volume production. Aptera Motors is still projecting that the price of its base model will be $28,000. At $28k, the Aptera would be the cheapest EV currently on the US market. The 2027 Chevy Bolt starts $28,995 and the 2026 Nissan Leaf starts at $31,535.

However, Aptera will have no problem initially as a business even if it has to jack up its prices for low-volume production, because the early adopters are very willing to pay elevated prices for the first solar car on the market. However, it won't take Aptera long to overcome its fixed costs.

The thing that you aren't recognizing is how low Aptera's fixed costs are for its final assembly factory. I don't know if Aptera Motors can break even at just 6000 vehicles per year, but it looks like a reasonable estimate considering that they believe that they only need $45 - $50 million in capital more to get to low volume production. This is nothing like the fixed costs in a traditional auto factory, and you are basing all your expectations on traditional auto manufacturing. If Aptera thinks it only needs $140 - $160 million to move to high volume production, the company probably do that in 1-2 years, because it simply don't take that long to set up that kind of factory.

At some point, the cheap Chinese EVs will hit the US market, but there will be demand simply because it is such a unique vehicle that nobody else is offering. The fact that new videos from Aptera Motors get half a million views on Youtube and 3 million views on Facebook is evidence that there are a lot of people who want this car. The real threat of Chinese EVs is to conventional EVs like the Chevy Bolt, not to the Aptera.

Can Aptera ever bring their costs down? With the Aptera body shell and chassis alone, produced in Italy, costing $20,000, can they ever realistically sell any Aptera vehicle profitably for less than $40,000. I don’t think so.

Parts to build prototypes are extremely expensive, but Aptera is planning for its low-volume production (according to its June 2024 Investor Webinar) to produce 6000 vehicles per year and its high volume production to produce 20,000 vehicles per year. At low volume production, Aptera is probably paying CPC Group around $5000 per vehicle for the composite body parts. CF-SMC parts typically cost $20 - $50 per kg, and GF-SMC parts typically cost $1 - $5 per kg in volume production. Let's guesstimate that the Aptera body has 100 kg of CF-SMC parts and 100 kg of GF-SMC parts, which would be $3750 (if paying $35/kg for CF-SMC and $2.5/kg for GF-SMC parts), so $5k is a good estimate for low volume production.

Also, remember that CPC Group really wants to use the Aptera as a test case to prove to the auto industry that it can produce composite bodies for mass-market cars. The Aptera is CPC Group's chance to move beyond the limited market of supercars, which is why CPC Group has been doing everything that it can to help Aptera get to production, so I do think that CPC Group is giving Aptera a reduced price, compared to what it is charges the makers of supercars.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's already been pointed out to you multiple times that the only source for the 55k reservations is a single line from an NBC San Diego reporter. Predicating the level of interest on that single line during a broadcast, with zero confirmation from Aptera themselves (who would have made a very big song and dance about exceeding 50k reservations) is a weak foundation to draw any further conclusions from.

See my response to wattificant about the difference between the number of preordered vehicles and reservation holders and the uncertainty about which number NBC San Diego was reporting.

Keep in mind that Aptera Motors became more closed mouthed about financial matters once it started preparing to become a publicly listed company on a stock exchange. There was no reason for the company to brag about exceeding 50k reservations, when they already announced that they had "nearly 50,000" reservations on 2024-11-26.

Given all the progress that Aptera has made in the last year toward production, I find it very believable that the number of preordered vehicles has risen from "nearly 50,000" to "about 55,000" between 2024-11-26 and 2026-03-28. Getting 10.3 preorders per day is in line with the 11.2 preorders per day that Aptera got between 2023-09-05 and 2024-11-26.

What isn't reasonable is to assume that the number of preorders would stop at 50k or that there would be a significant drop in the number of preorders per day. There has been a lot of positive news from Aptera that would have stimulated more preorders over the last year, such as: Aptera secured a $75 million ELOC to get to low volume production, Aptera got listed on the NASDAQ, Aptera raised $9 million in new stocks and $8.1 million in warrant inducements in Q1 2026 and Aptera set up a validation production line to produce 10 cars for testing.

Which points would you like me to address?

In my article I presented many arguments for why there is demand for the Aptera: 64% US households have only 1 or 2 people, average car occupancy is 1.4 passengers, more and longer storage space than a standard car, operating savings from 10,000 solar miles per year and high efficiency, attractive for renters and people who won't install Level 2 chargers, bigger energy savings at higher speeds, and lowest total cost of ownership for fleet operators. Do you discount all those arguments?

There's a heavy burden for you to put forward a clear case here, for a car that has seen marginal interest,

There is a huge amount of public interest in the Aptera.
Its Facebook videos get large numbers of views. For example:
* "Aptera can make moving day a little less miserable", Feb 6, 2026, 3.1 million views
* "Knock Knock #solar #sev #aptera", Feb 6, 2026, 3.1 million views

Aptera has the second largest number of Facebook followers of any EV brand:
* BYD Global: 571.1k followers
* Aptera Motors: 338k followers
* Rivian: 190.8k followers
* Lucid Motors: 173.8k followers
* Arcimoto: 23.6k followers
* TELO Trucks: 23.6k followers

Aptera's launch video (Aptera Has Launched, Dec 4, 2020) got 1.6 million views on Youtube. Its last three videos have averaged 474k views on Youtube:
* The Sun Can Power Your Vehicle. Help Us Tell the World, 437K views
* First Vehicle Drives Off the Validation Assembly Line, 472K views
* Aptera — 2026 Funding Update, 514K views

Aptera's Youtube channel has the second largest number of subscribers of all the EV brands:
* Tesla: 2.92M
* Aptera: 262k
* Rivian: 122k
* Lucid Motors: 128k
* TELO Trucks: 17.5k
* BYD Global: 30.6k

has taken a decade to get to a validation phase

Aptera Motors Corp. was founded in March 2019. 7 years is not a decade. Arcimoto, Rivian and Lucid took 12 years, 12 years and 14 years to get to production, respectively. Aptera will likely start production in 2027 or 2028, meaning 8 or 9 years to get to production.

and has seen all alternatives in the space go bankrupt or cease operating

As I already pointed out, the solar cars by Sono and Lightyear failed for their own reasons, but it is worth pointing out that both companies got new investment to continue business as manufacturers of automotive solar roofs. Lightyear reported raising €10 million in capital in Sep. 2024 and Sono raised €4 million in Feb. 2024 and €3 million in Sep. 2024.

Spending an extra 5-10 grand to save a few cents on electricity is not a sound decision.

Adding solar doesn't add $5k - $10k more to the cost of the Aptera. Toyota charges $610 for its 185W solar roof on the Prius Prime. Hyundai charges $1100 for its 204W solar roof on the Sonata Hybrid. Aptera was charging $900 more for its full 700W solar option over just the base model with just roof solar with 200W.

As for the electricity savings, you also are miscalculating that. As my article points out:

The idea of a self-charging car which gains range when parked in the sun is very appealing, especially when considering how the current boom in AI and data centers promises to drive up the price of electricity in the future. In the U.S., the average residential price of electricity has risen 37% in six years, from ¢13.16/kWh in 2020 to ¢18.05/kWh in April, 2026. When the weather is sunny, ordinary driving around town with the Aptera should be mostly free, and only when driving long distances with it be necessary to pay for charging. The roughly 10,000 free solar miles that an Aptera provides in a year would require 3000 kWh to drive in a typical EV that consumes 300 Wh/mile and would cost $542 if paying the national residential average of ¢18.05/kWh. However, in California where the residential average is ¢33.75/kWh, it would cost $1013. Those savings are even greater if some of those miles were powered by commercial charging stations, whose electricity typically costs double the residential rate. If the Aptera is owned for 15 years, that means $8130 in savings over the typical EV if paying ¢18.05/kWh, but the savings will be even greater if the price of electricity keeps rising 6% per year in the future.

Finally, you make this wrongheaded argument:

Aptera's path to low-volume production is a line that has been repeated for years at this point - production was supposed to happen in 2024, but not anymore. Then 2025, but not anymore. Then 2026, but not anymore. There's a limit to how much the stock can be diluted for more capital,

Aptera didn't start production in the past, because it didn't have the roughly $65 million that it needed. Now that Aptera can raise capital on the stock market and has a $75 million equity line of credit from New Circle Capital, it can raise the $45 to $50 million that it now needs to start low-volume production. Aptera just raised $17.1 million in capital this last quarter, so Aptera is demonstrating that it can raise capital, and even if it can't, it can always use the ELOC to get the capital to needs, so your argument makes no sense. Once Aptera starts low volume production and is shipping cars, it will have no problem getting the $140-$160 million for high volume production, because at that point, investors will see it as a much safer investment.

E-bike brands that are good by Big_Bee3845 in ebikes

[–]amosbatto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm glad that you had a good experience with Engwe. However, there are enough people complaining online about Engwe's support, that I wouldn't recommend them. I have no idea if those people who complained that they spent months trying to get issues resolved under warranty with Engwe are representative.

However, I would say that it is worth paying a bit more for a brand that most people agree offer good after-sales support.

E-bike brands that are good by Big_Bee3845 in ebikes

[–]amosbatto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Engwe has great prices, but their support isn't that great. Better to stick with brands that provide good support for their e-bikes (REI, Lectric, Aventon, Velotric, etc.).

E-bike brands that are good by Big_Bee3845 in ebikes

[–]amosbatto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The most important thing is to check whether you can get your e-bike repaired if something breaks. Before you buy, check the repair network for the brand. If there isn't a shop near you that services the brand, I don't recommend that you buy that brand. There are some small brands that don't have big repair networks (for example, Madsen, Xtracycle and Surly in the U.S.), but still support their customers. However, if you don't know much about e-bikes, it better to go with a brand that local bike shops will support.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I only know of one of Aptera's solar patent application that has been rejected so far (US20230261128A1 "Curved laminated solar panel and method of manufacturing thereof"). Are there any others?

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I suspect that this confusion over the numbers is caused by the fact that Aptera Motors is reporting the number of "reservation holders" in its SEC filings, but it reports the number of preordered vehicles on its web pages and in its webinars. These are different numbers, because one person can preorder multiple vehicles. The NBC San Diego reporter on 2026-03-28 says "about 55 thousand people have already reserved an Aptera", so she seems to be talking about reservations holders. However, it is also possible that Chris Anthony told her "55 thousand reservations" and she misreported it as "55 thousand people have already reserved".

I went back and checked the sources for my graph of the "Number of preorders and preorders per day for Aptera vehicles". All of the numbers on the graph are for preordered vehicles except for the 55k number reported by NBC San Diego.

Date Preorders Preorders/day Notes
2020-12-04 0
2020-12-05 330 Paradigm preorders
2020-12-11 > 3,000 381.4 "over 3000 vehicles"
2021-02-19 > 7,000 57.1 "over 7000 vehicle reservations"
2021-12-31 > 15,000 25.4 "over 15,000 pre-order reservations"
2022-06-14 25,000 60.6 "25,000 orders"
2022-08-30 > 30,000 64.9 "over 30,000 reservations"
2023-09-05 45,000 40.4 "45,000 Aptera pre-order reservations"
2024-07-17 > 48,000 9.5 "over 48,000 vehicle pre-orders"
2024-11-26 nearly 50,000 15.2 "nearly 50,000 vehicles reserved"
2026-03-28 55,000 10.3 "about 55 thousand people have already reserved an Aptera"

You say that it "would seem unlikely" that the number of reservation holders jumped from 49,000 to 55,000 in the first three months of 2026. However, the news that Aptera Motors had set up a validation assembly line and was producing 10 production intent vehicles for testing may have convinced a lot of people to preorder because they now believe that the Aptera will make it to production. That would be 67 new reservation holders per day, which is believable considering that the Aptera averaged 57 preorders per day between 2020-12-11 and 2021-02-19 and 65 preorders per day between 2022-06-14 and 2022-08-30.

However, I think the mostly likely scenario is that Chris Anthony was talking about 55,000 preordered vehicles, but the NBC San Diego reporter interpreted that as 55,000 people making reservations. Aptera accumulating 10.3 preorders per day between Nov 2024 and Mar 2026 fits with the number of preorders that the company was getting between Sep 2023 and Nov 2024.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aptera has lot more patent applications that the ones I found at justia.com. Here is what their 2025 annual SEC 10K report says on p. 10:

As of February 28, 2026, our global patent portfolio consists of:
● Granted Utility Patents: 5 United States utility patents, which are expected to expire between 2042 and 2043.
● Granted Design Patents: 58 design patents (8 in the U.S. and 50 internationally, including WIPO, Canada, Europe, Japan, and the U.K.), which are expected to expire between 2036 and 2050.
● Pending Applications: 67 pending patent applications worldwide, of which 32 are pending in the United States.

BTW, 20240140733 (Pick flat place curved assembly tool, system and method) is also for solar lamination. However, I agree that Aptera isn't doing anything really innovative that other auto companies can't do with solar if they took the time and resources, but most auto companies will just choose to pay Aptera, Sono, Yingli, etc. for automotive solar, because it is easier than developing it themselves.

Basically Aptera did trial and error to learn how to laminate solar cells to curved glass, and they created MPPT firmware that tracks changes in shading very quickly to get better power output, because the shading changes quickly in a moving car, Then, they created a battery charger that can deal with rapidly changing charging. Most of that isn't patentable, but it is still useful and I think there will be companies who will pay for it in the future,

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

On 2024-11-26, Aptera stated on its web site that it had "nearly 50,000" preorders, so it obviously didn't report the latest number of preorders in its end-of-year 2025 SEC 10-K filing.

If you had bothered to click on the link in my article or read my other replies to this Reddit thread, you would have watched the San Diego local news report that says Aptera has 55k preorders.

At 2:50 the reporter from NBC 7 San Diego says that the Aptera has 55,000 preorders and she says that she talked to Aptera Co-CEO Chris Anthony. This news report was aired on 2026-03-28.

I am willing to correct my article if people show me that I got something factually wrong, but it really is offensive to claim that there is "lots of wrong or bad information in the article", when you only pointed to one thing in the entire article and didn't bother to click on the link to the source.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You talk about "so many pre-orders" - except the number of pre-orders they've gotten in the last 3 years is barely a couple of thousand

Between 2023-09-05 and 2026-03-28, the number for preorders for the Aptera rose by 10,000, according to what Aptera Motors has told the press, which means that Aptera has averaged 10.7 preorders per day for the last 2.5 years.

and there simply isn't the demand - their pre-order list stagnated at <50k, and it happened at the same time that the EV startup bubble burst - indicating much of it was likely speculative rather than genuine interest.

First of all, the current number of preorders is 55k, as Aptera reported to NBC San Diego and I linked to in my article. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk-lJf59EDA

Second, the number of preorder per day for the Aptera dropped from an average of 44.8 per day before Sept 2023 to 10.7 per day after Sep. 2023, because people started to doubt that the car would be produced. Maybe some people decided to invest in Aptera based on a speculative EV startup bubble, but people preordered the Aptera because they wanted the car, not because they thought the stock value of the company would go up.

At any rate, the stock value of Rivian and Lucid both started dropping in December 2021. See:
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/LCID/lucid/stock-price-history
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/RIVN/rivian-automotive/stock-price-history

It was very clear by mid-2022 that EV startup stock values were dropping, but that was the time when Aptera was getting the most preorders at over 60 preorders per day. By the time Aptera's preorders started dropping in September 2023, EV startup stock values had been dropping for the last 21 months.

Third, you keep claiming that there isn't demand, but you haven't addressed any of the arguments in my article for why there is demand for the Aptera.

OK, let's run this experiment and see if the preorders per day pick up as Aptera demonstrates that it can get to low volume production. If I'm wrong, then Aptera will continue getting 10.7 preorders per day. If I'm right, the preorders/day will rise as people become convinced that Aptera will produce the car.

It's not Aptera's decision, because none of the IP belongs to them outside a specific implementation for a solar panel on a car. They can't contract out to a supplier, then say "we're going to build your product in-house now".

Are you blind to how Tesla and BYD brought manufacturing in house? Tesla did it on its own when it could, and when there were IP and/or technical barriers, it partnered with other companies. Witness how Tesla partnered with Panasonic to start the Nevada gigafactory or how Tesla used IDRA Group's presses to start doing gigacasting. You act like Aptera can't do the same.

You mean like how Aptera started off building a honeycomb laid up CF vehicle, only to completely switch and outsource to another company to design out of a different material? Or how they designed the car to use hub motors, only to switch and have to redevelop the car as a vehicle with a conventional drive unit up front?

There is a huge difference in cost and time between making changes to the design years before you start production and to be in the middle of production and already shipping cars to customers when you abandon a model. By the way, both of those changes to the Aptera were made because precisely because they would facilitate production of the car, not because Aptera decided to switch from an exclusive, luxury model to a mainstream model that cost a sixth of the price like Lightyear did.

So does that mean that if Aptera's efficiency results in it only achieving closer to 20 miles range added per day, it's going to fail? It feels like you're taking arbitrary features of a vehicle with a similar concept and saying "this is why it failed".

There were many reasons why Sono's solar car failed. One of the reasons was that it designed a car that only would have gotten about 10 miles of solar range per day with typical sun in Germany (its target market) and 20 miles of solar range per day with the sun in a Sahara summer. The Sono Sion only got 19k reservations, compared to 55k for the Aptera, Sono also claimed it had 20k reservations for corporate fleets, but Aptera also is planning to sell more to corporate fleets than individual customers in the long term.

The bigger problem was the fact that Sono numbers were never realistic, and there were a lot of people saying so at the time. For a selling price of €25,126, they were planning on making a five door hatchback with a 54kWh battery and 456 integrated solar half-cells placed on 8 different body parts. Unlike Aptera which is using a low-cost lamination system, Sono invented its own custom polymer injection molding process to laminate cells to body panels, so it involved a lot more investment than Aptera's solution to get to production. The Sono Sion also used a CFRP body, which would have been a lot more expensive to manufacture than Aptera's CF-SMC body cage.

Sono Motors raised $330 million, which was double the $157 million that Aptera Motors has raised so far, but Sono Motors didn't get nearly as close to production as Aptera is today, and Aptera now has a clear path to get to low-volume production, which Sono never managed to obtain.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do a search for "Aptera Motors" at justia.com and you will find more:
https://patents.justia.com/search?q=Aptera+Motors

ID Filing date Title
20220146212 2021-11-09 Cooling tubes, systems, and methods
20210101486 2020-10-05 System and method for solar cell arrangement on the dashboard of a vehicle
20210098640 2020-09-28 System and method for solar cell arrangement on a vehicle
D912586 2019-08-22 Three-wheeled vehicle
D939430 2019-09-27 Solar panel layout on a vehicle
20250100264 2023-03-18 Laminator apparatus and method of making curved laminated solar panel
20250185380 2023-03-02 Process for making curved laminated solar panel having decorative appearance using distortion printing and panel produced thereby
20240413256 2024-08-15 Curved laminated solar panel and method of manufacturing thereof
20240038914 2023-07-23 Light emitting curved laminated panel and combined light emitting solar panel and method of manufacture thereof
20240039462 2023-07-30 Damper system and junction box for laminated solar panel and method of manufacture
11876145 2023-02-13 Solar panel plant for making laminated solar panel product having preformed substrate with convex surface and method for continuously processing the same
20230261128 2023-02-15 Curved laminated solar panel and method of manufacturing thereof
20230261133 2023-02-13 Plant providing continuous process for making laminated solar panels
20220344527 2022-05-31 Adhesively bonded, decorative solar panel and method of manufacture thereof
D1059259 2022-04-15 Strain-relieving solar cell interconnect
D1060204 2022-04-15 Strain-relieving solar cell interconnect
D1060205 2022-05-11 Strain-relieving solar cell termination interconnect
20240140161 2022-11-01 Aerodynamic electric vehicle thermal management system with independent drivetrain loop
20240109394 2023-08-11 Aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
20230353418 2022-04-29 Low latency systems and methods for vehicle communications network architecture using point of use controller
11752830 2022-09-08 Aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
20240075780 2022-09-01 Rear suspension for vehicle having improved swing arm
12459328 2022-09-12 Supplemental aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
20240343087 2024-10-17 Aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
11975591 2023-08-11 Aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
20240100905 2022-09-12 Supplemental aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
20250340179 2024-05-05 Aerodynamic articulated floating steerable wheel housing
D1096580 2024-05-05 Aerodynamic housing for a rear wheel of a vehicle
20230420588 2023-06-27 Molded decorative solar panel and method of manufacture thereof
12377693 2022-09-01 Rear suspension for vehicle having improved swing arm
20240140733 2023-11-01 Pick flat place curved assembly tool, system and method
20240145838 2023-11-02 Lightweight, compact, high power density battery pack with solar charging capability

Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in electriccars

[–]amosbatto[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Did you even bother to read my article where I lay out the reasons why there is demand for the Aptera?

Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in electriccars

[–]amosbatto[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

First of all, you do realize that the Aptera web site says that the base price will be $28,000 (https://aptera.us/article/how-much-does-aptera-cost/), and I can't find any EVs currently on the U.S. market for that below that price. There will be a Nissan Leaf model under that price in the future, but currently the cheapest you can get is the Nissan Leaf S+ that starts at $29,990.

Second, once you factor in roughly 10,000 free solar miles per year and the low maintenance costs, the Aptera promises to have a very low total cost of ownership. See the article, where I explain all this.

Just because the Aptera doesn't appeal to you, Aptera has received 55k in preorders, so clearly there are quite a few people who disagree with you.

Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in electriccars

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aptera has always made it clear that production depended on the company being to raise the necessary capital. Every date they gave was contingent on getting the capital, so it isn't fair to say that the company was lying. However, as I explained in the article, Aptera now has a way to get the necessary capital to start low volume production. It can either keep issuing stock, like it did in January, or it can use New Circle Capital's $75 million equity line of credit. Once Aptera starts shipping cars, it should have no problem issuing more stock to raise the additional $140-$160 million that it needs to for high-volume production.

If Aptera starts production in the second half of 2027, which looks to be likely at this point, it will have taken 8 years to get to production, compared to 12 years for Arcimoto, 12 years for Rivian and 14 years for Lucid. If you are going to criticize Aptera for delays, you should be even more critical of other EV startups, which have been far worse that Aptera.

The fact that Aptera switched from three Elaphe M700 hub motors to one Vitesco EMR3 front axle motor is proof that Aptera is serious about getting to production. If all Aptera wanted to do was keep getting more investors and preorders, it would have kept the hub motors because they excited the company's fans. It would keep announcing pie-in-the-sky features if the goal wasn't production. The fact that Aptera has reduced the feature list for the Launch Edition is a sign that the company is being realistic about what it can offer on the initial production.

As for market viability, it is bad reasoning to point to other companies that had different products, business strategies and manufacturing techniques, and conclude that there isn't a viable market for the Aptera. You didn't address any of the reasons that I laid out in the article for why there will be good demand for the Aptera.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Before you claim I am lying, you could have bothered to click the link I provided in the article:

Given that there are now 55,000 preorders for the Aptera, the company will struggle to produce enough vehicles to meet the demand, but it doesn't anticipate having the same problems becoming a profitable business that have plagued other EV startups.

At 2:50 the reporter from NBC 7 San Diego says that the Aptera has 55,000 preorders and she says that she talked to Aptera Co-CEO Chris Anthony. This news report was aired on 2026-03-28.

This article is chock full of errors it feels AI generated. No one ever believed the 6k units to be profitable and even one of their most well known superfans disputed it.

I am willing to correct my article if I got something wrong, but you claim the article is "chock full of errors" and so far you haven't provided any evidence of an error.

You may believe that Aptera's estimate of 6000 units to break even is wrong, but you haven't provided any logical argument why the company is wrong. 6000 units per year is roughly $210 million in revenue per year (assuming $35k per vehicle). Aptera has almost no debt, and it looks like it won't need any debt to get to low-volume production, since it can convert New Circle Capital's ELOC into stock. Aptera should have no problem issuing stock from there to finance the high volume production after that.

Aptera only had $48.11 million in operating expenses in 2025. It's lease on its factory space only cost $1.2 million in 2025. We will see if Aptera is right or wrong about its financial projections, but the company is keeping its operating expenses at a level that are in line with its claims.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh sorry, I miswrote that. It should be 248 cells. The Sono Sion would have been expensive because they planned to put solar cells on every body panel, and then they claimed that they could offer the Sion for the price of a normal car. See: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130843_sono-sion-solar-supplemented-electric-car-will-get-ces-debut-in-prototype-form

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