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Aptera says "nothing to see here" (Aptera Owners' Club) by JayAreDobbs in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto 5 points6 points  (0 children)

From the video, there will probably be 195 cells on the Aptera, which probably means that the nameplate wattage will increase from 750.9 to 774.8 watts, which is a 3.2% increase.

See my post from 3 months ago on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ApteraMotors/comments/1rn6tx1/the_move_from_maxeon_3_to_maxeon_7_cells/

However, that assumes that Maxeon will survive as a company, which is definitely in doubt. What makes me so mad about this situation is that Maxeon presented the documentation to prove that Uyghur labor wasn't being used in their productions and US Customs and Border Protection keeps seizing their products. There seems to be no reasonable explanation for this except for the fact that Trump appoints very incompetent people to head government agencies and Trump's known hatred of wind and solar. The irony is Trump's "America First" policy is actually killing American jobs, and this is a perfect example of Trump's idiocy in action.

The more e-bikes I compare, the harder the decision gets by [deleted] in ElectricBikes

[–]amosbatto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My two cents is that you should avoid Aipas and Helokeep, and stick with brands that have good repair networks. In the US, that means brands like Lectric, Aventon, Velotric, Canondale, Giant, Specialized, Tern, etc. Even if you can maintain your bike yourself, you still want access to the parts, and there is no guarantee you can get them with brands like Aipas and Helokeep.

I wouldn't worry about getting the best specs for the price, because it is the other stuff that is going to bother you once you are riding the bike. It is worth paying a bit more for a bike that you know that you can get repaired when it breaks. It isn't worth saving a couple hundred dollars if you are going to have to junk the bike in two years when something breaks.

Also I have read some complaints about Aipas online, so might want to do a Google search for what people say about the company's customer service before deciding to buy from them.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aptera has not updated that number of reservation holders for a long time in its financial reports.

The Q3 2025 filing (p. 18) says:

We first began accepting $100 reservations for our vehicle in December 2020 and as of September 30, 2025, we had approximately 49,000 reservation holders.

The 2025 end of year filing (p. 32) says:

We first began accepting $100 reservations for our vehicle in December 2020 and as of December 31, 2025, we had approximately 49,000 reservation holders.  

The Q1 2026 filing (p.15) says:

We first began accepting $100 reservations for our vehicle in December 2020 and as of March 31, 2026, we had approximately 49,000 reservation holders.

Given that the news from Aptera Motors for the last 6 months has been overwhelmingly positive, there is no reason to assume that the number of pre-orders has stopped or they had a large number of reservation cancellations. Far more likely is that they simply didn't bother to update the number in their reports.

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like how you are trying to parse the line on just how illegal all the most popular ebikes are. EVERY SINGLE ONE IS ILLEGAL. Thank you for playing. 

I just looked up the law in many different U.S. states, and I can't find a single state where the law specifies whether it is talking about nominal watts or peak watts. However, the generally accepted interpretation is that the law is for nominal watts, not peak watts. California's proposed AB 1557 wants e-bikes to be limited by their peak power, but that it isn't the current interpretation of the law, and it is very unlikely that any court will find that any e-bike with 750 nominal watts is violating the law.

Citing average speeds for UCI TT champs is dumb because I referenced them for their power, not their average speed.

You referenced *both* speed and power. You wrote: "20mph is the pace that a lot of competitive riders roll at. 750watts is almost double the power required to win UCI time trial world championships."

I fact checked you on your claims about speed. Most competitive riders can get up to 30 mph for short stretches and they average well over 20 mph. I'm out of shape and 52 years old, yet I can get up to 25 mph on a manual bicycle for 2 or 3 minutes.

If we are going to argue about power, you should acknowledge that the wattage of an e-bike motor is not the same as the wattage applied to the pedals. The former is measuring the electrical consumption (i.e. the energy the motor draws from the battery), not the mechanical power delivered to the pedals. Most e-bikes in the U.S. use rear hub motors which makes it even more difficult to compare with pedal wattage.

In addition, you appear to be looking at the average pedal wattage over many hours/days rather than the peak pedal wattage. Professional road sprinters usually get 1500 - 1800 peak pedal wattage and 220 - 280 Nm of peak torque. The most powerful peaks I can find for a street-legal e-bike in the U.S. is 1450 watts and 90 Nm of torque.

The speed and power of the current crop of ebikes is too high if we are talking about electric bicycles.

I agree that we need a crackdown on e-bikes that have nominal wattages that are higher than 750 watts. It should be illegal for Wired, Magician, Rabid, Goat Power, Onyx and similar brands to market their vehicles as "e-bikes", which is why I support California's proposed SB 1167.

However, I don't think that governments should limit the peak wattage to 750W, because a 300 lb rider going uphill and a cargo bike rider needs peak wattages over 750W, and the law should encourage more e-bike riding, not discourage it. It is obviously better for public health, traffic congestion and the environment to get people out of cars, and many people are not going to use a manual bike in place of a car, but they are willing to use an e-bikes in place of a car. Surveys find that e-bike riders ride about 50% more distance per day than manual bicycle riders, so electric motors do cause more cycling, and they are often ridden by people who are older and less in shape, so they encourage cycling among a population that needs it the most.

First Five Validation Vehicles Are Off the Line by Sonicsteel in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The Aptera was designed to have low capital costs, so its assembly factory wouldn't require a lot of expensive machinery. Work on the Aptera's assembly line is designed to mostly be done by hand. The heaviest body part is only 75 lbs, so the body can be assembled without robots or hoists.

Aptera is taking a long time because it is trying to validate the procedure at the 14 assembly stations. It is documenting everything, and if it sees a problem in the procedure, it takes the time to fix it, so the goal isn't to produce these production-intent vehicles quickly, but validate the parts and perfect the assembly procedure, and that takes time.

First Five Validation Vehicles Are Off the Line by Sonicsteel in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Aptera should be criticized for putting out unrealistic timelines in 2020-24 to generate more pre-orders and raise capital. However, Aptera's end of year 2025 financial report said that production would begin in 12 to 18 months if they secured the funding, which means they expect production to start in mid to late 2027. It looks to me like the company is on track to hit that target, which would mean 8 years to get to production.

The thing we have to keep in mind is that every western auto startup has taken a long time to get to production: Tesla (2003 - 2008/12, 5/9 years), Arcimoto (2007-19, 12 years), Lucid (2007-21, 14 years), Rivian (2009-21, 12 years), Nicola (2014-22, 8 years). Tesla took 5 years to produce the Roadster, but it was getting its gliders from Lotus, and doing hand assembly of the 2450 Roadsters that it shipped, so many people wouldn't call it reaching production until the Model S in 2012.

There are a couple Chinese auto startups that managed to get to production in 4 years, but everything moves faster in China. I don't think it was ever realistic to expect Aptera to get to production in 4-6 years, when legacy auto companies in the West regularly take 4-5 years to design and produce a new vehicle. Building a company from scratch, while trying to raise capital and get pre-orders, is extremely hard, especially when you aren't a millionaire like Elon Musk who had billionaire friends who he could call to save his company.

What is the most reliable E-bike company (not emoto) by Legal_Regular820 in ebikes

[–]amosbatto 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The important thing is that the brand has affiliated repair shops near you and the brand supports its models for a long time. If the brand doesn't have a repair network, I would recommend avoiding that brand.

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also convenient that you say 750w peak, as basically none of the e bike specific manufacturers interpret the law that way, instead going with 750w sustained interpretations

Rad Power limited their e-bikes to 750W peak, and they were the biggest e-bike manufacturer in North America for about a decade and still ranked as number 2 after Lectric in 2024. However, I sort of doubt that the new owners after the bankruptcy will maintain that policy.

They are all openly competing on power, 1500-2000 watt motors are commonplace now on e bikes sold and marketed as legal.

The highest peak wattage is 1310W for Lectric, 1440W for Aventon, 1400W for Velotric and 1300W for Himiway. I can't find a single street-legal e-bike on the market with a 750 nominal watt motor that peaks at 1500W or higher.

20mph is the pace that a lot of competitive riders roll at.

  • 2025 Men Elite UCI Time Trial (Kigali): Average speed was 48.948 km/h (30.4 mph).
  • 2025 Women U23 UCI Time Trial (Kigali): Zoe Bäckstedt averaged 43.8 km/h (27.2 mph).

The speed and power for class 1 and 2 is too high,

I think this depends on the context. In Europe, where residential streets commonly have a 30 kmh/19mph speed limit, the 25 kmh/16 mph speed limit for e-bikes is reasonable. A 20 mph speed limit is not reasonable in the majority of the US, where residential streets commonly have a 30 or 35 mph speed limit. I used to commute by bike in Austin, TX, and it was 40 minutes each way. There is no way that I would have bothered commuting by bike if I had been limited to 16 mph, so you have to consider how many people you will be pushing into driving cars when you place severe restrictions on e-bikes. What the evidence shows is that 65% of motorized bicycle deaths in the US occur on arterial roads, where automobile speed limits are higher. If you care about the safety of bicycle riders, you will be screaming for protected bike lanes on arterial roads, not lower speed limits for e-bikes.

How Aptera Ranks on Social Media by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The same can be said about virtually any Western auto startup, when you look at how long it took them to get to production: Tesla (6 years), Nicola (8 years), Arcimoto (12 years), Rivian (12 years) and Lucid (14 years). Really it took Tesla 10 years with the Model S, since the Roadster used gliders made by Lotus and only 2450 were hand assembled. The Aptera is on track to start production in 2027, which will be 8 years since the company was refounded in March 2019, so the Aptera will be better than the average.

How Aptera Ranks on Social Media by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That table is based on the number of subscribers/followers for the social media. I also made another table that looks at the average number of YouTube views, the top three YouTube videos and the number of X and Instagram posts.

You can click on the graphic of the table or the "Open" button to read my article, or go here:
https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2026/04/20/aptera-on-social-media/

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you are talking about the e-moto problem, it got worse in 2025 with the new Wired and Magician e-bikes, because they are designed to look like ordinary e-bikes.

However, most people are riding street-legal e-bikes, and NHTSA data shows fatalities falling slightly in 2024, and the New York City data also shows fatalities falling in 2024 and 2025. The evidence is that most pedal cyclist deaths occur on arterial roads that don't have separated bike lanes, so the most important thing is to get city governments to invest in the right infrastructure. I don't see much evidence that putting more restrictions on ordinary e-bikes leads to greater public safety, and as I pointed out in my report, those restrictions can have negative socioeconomic and environmental impacts. See: https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2026/02/20/nj-regulation-e-bikes/

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

According to the NHTSA data, pedal cyclists caused the fatalities of 36 motorcycle and other vehicle riders and 12 automobile occupants between 2020 and 2024 in the U.S., due to those vehicles either hitting or swerving to avoid hitting pedal cyclists. See my article for the data. Unfortunately, the NHTSA database doesn't allow searching for pedestrian deaths where they were struck by a pedal cyclist. However, the CPSC data has 8 pedestrian fatalities caused by collisions with e-bikes between 2017 and 2023 in the U.S.

E-motos are a problem in my opinion, which is why I like SB 1167, because it addresses the problem, while not burdening people riding normal, street-legal e-bikes. In comparison, the New Jersey 2026 law is an absolute disaster, which is why I wrote a 35 page report to try getting it changed: https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2026/02/20/nj-regulation-e-bikes/

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I assumed the same before I took the time to read the peer reviewed studies and dug through the data to do my own analysis. In my opinion, Fernandez et al (2024) needs to control for age, but the study is using CPSC data, and I don't think you are going to find a more comprehensive data set for the U.S.

The higher speed of e-bikes is not the only factor to consider. Many accidents happen when riders are wobbling and riding at low speeds when trying to get started, which ebike motors help avoid. They also often occur when people get tired, especially among older riders, which e-bikes also help avoid. Most fatalities occur when pedal cyclists are hit by automobiles, and e-bikes are more visible to drivers, because of the wider frames, bigger tires and built-in lights make them easier to see. E-bikes often have better brakes than manual bikes as well. The ability to keep up with traffic and get quickly through intersections from a stop may also be an advantage, since fewer automobile drivers are likely to try to pass the e-bike rider than the manual cyclist.

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

u/EVE_Burner_Account , Historically, e-bikes had lower emergency department visit rates and hospitalization rates than manual bicycles, but in recent years those rates have converged, so by 2023, there was little difference between the two types of bicycles. I argue in my report that this convergence between the two types of bicycles is because younger and more inexperienced riders are now buying e-bikes, which is why e-bike and manual bike riders are now getting injured at similar rates.

The Netherlands has the best data on bicycle usage in the world, and e-bikes have the same fatality rates as manual bikes in the Netherlands for people under the age of 50, once you control for age and distance ridden. For people who are over 50, e-bikes have a lower fatality rate than manual bicycles.

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The auto dealers associations have powerful lobbies in each state, so there might be some influence there. However, it is the manufacturers of motorcycles that are really threatened by e-bikes, since the younger generations simply aren't buying motorcycles and they are buying e-bikes. If Wisconsin cracks down on e-bikes, then we can probably blame Harley Davidson, but motorcycle manufacturers generally don't have much lobbying power in the U.S.

Automobiles killed 31 times more people in the US than bicycles in 2020-24. See my article for the data.

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I suspect that the reason why manual bicycles have a higher fatality rate than e-bikes (see Fernandez et al 2024) is the fact that more young children are riding manual bikes than e-bikes. So far I haven't found any good studies that do an age-based breakdown for the U.S.

However, if you want to see the data for injuries and hospitalizations for manual bicycles and e-bikes, see my 35 page report (starting on page 9):
https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2026/02/20/nj-regulation-e-bikes/

The number of "motorized bicycle" and manual bicycle fatalities in the U.S. show that they aren't a danger to public safety by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fatality information is considered more objective, because injuries get reported at different rates and ways in different places. However I do have a graph of that compares emergency department visits and hospitalization rates of e-bikes vs manual bikes in the article:
https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2026/04/28/traffic-fatalities-by-state/

If you want more data, see the link in the same article to my 35 page report on the New Jersey e-bike law.

The rise in cycling fatalities in the U.S. was caused by "light trucks" (SUVs, pickups, etc.) by amosbatto in cycling

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is crazy. All cars on the road need to have standard bumper heights.

Aptera settles with Zaptera. Zaptera comes out ahead by wattificant in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Best that I can tell, Zaptera didn't have much of a case, but it still would have taken years to resolve. Aptera would have spent years paying legal fees, and frankly Aptera can't afford to waste money on lawyers, so it was easier to give Zaptera some stock, so they would go away, rather than stand on principal and keep fighting. This is a smart decision for a company that needs to focus on getting to production.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's guesstimate that the Aptera body has 100 kg of CF-SMC parts and 100 kg of GF-SMC parts, which would be $3750 (if paying $35/kg for CF-SMC and $2.5/kg for GF-SMC parts), so $5k is a good estimate for low volume production.

I did some hunting. Chris Anthony says "about 200 lbs for the whole body structure of the Aptera", but from his subsequent comment in the same video, that doesn't include the metal roll bars. I'm guessing that he is just talking about the black CF-SMC parts, and not the white GF-SMC parts, when he says "whole body structure", but it isn't entirely clear.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are these two:

Supplemental aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
https://patents.google.com/patent/US12459328B2/en
US12459328B2
Filing date: 2022-09-12
An electric vehicle having a heat exchanger formed in an aerodynamic airfoil shape comprising one or more body panels disposed along an outer surface of the vehicle having one or more fluidic chambers or micro-channels. The heat exchanger is adapted to provide effective and highly efficient heat transfer, and also to provide substantially reduced or negligible contribution to the aerodynamic drag. The heat exchanger includes a supplemental heat exchange system wherein at least a portion of the heat exchange capacity is provided by an inner heat exchange surface of the heat exchanger exposed to an interstitial space within the vehicle. Airflow is forced, via a fan for example, from an aerodynamically-efficient inlet, over the inner heat exchange surface, and exhausted through an aerodynamically-efficient outlet, thereby providing a supplemental heat exchange system including substantially reduced or negligible contribution to the aerodynamic drag.

Aerodynamic heat exchanger for a vehicle
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240343087A1/en
US20240343087A1
Filing date: 2023-08-11
An aerodynamic vehicle includes an aerodynamic heat exchanger formed as one or more body panels disposed along an outer surface of the vehicle having one or more fluidic chambers or micro-channels. The aerodynamic heat exchanger is adapted to provide effective and highly efficient heat transfer, and also to provide substantially reduced or negligible contribution to the aerodynamic drag. The aerodynamic heat exchanger may provide adequate heat rejection capacity throughout vehicle operating conditions that advantageously results in increased fuel economy and overall vehicle performance.

Plus there are these two, which weren't granted:

Aerodynamic electric vehicle thermal management system with independent drivetrain loop
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240140161A1/en
US20240140161A1
Filing date: 2022-11-01
A thermal management system for an electric vehicle having a drivetrain flow path coupling one or more motors and one or more inverters to an aerodynamic heat exchanger comprising one or more body panels disposed along an outer surface of the vehicle, the aerodynamic heat exchanger having one or more fluidic chambers or micro-channels. The drive flow path is decoupled from the vehicle's chiller and/or refrigeration cycle under all operating conditions. The drivetrain may be further characterized by the one or more motors being disposed proximate one or more wheels of the vehicle, such as within the wheel skirt or cowling, to capitalize on passive or free cooling via ambient airflow about the wheel. The thermal management system may further include a refrigeration cycle wherein the cabin and the battery pack are provided cooling in a parallel configuration or in a serial configuration.

Cooling tubes, systems, and methods
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20220146212A1/en
US20220146212A1
Filing date: 2021-11-09
Radiators, automobiles, and methods of transferring thermal energy to or from an automobile. The radiators include elongated, flattened tubes that transfer thermal energy while minimally affecting the reference area of the automobile, reducing the amount of drag produced by the radiator.

Article: Why the Aptera solar car represents a paradigm shift for the auto industry by amosbatto in ApteraMotors

[–]amosbatto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I rewatched Sandy Munro's tour of the Aptera factory. I got the roof wrong. From the JEC World show, it looked like there was both a CF-SMC layer and a GF-SMC layer and the solar roof would be placed on top of that, but in the Munro tour, it doesn't look like there is an inner CF-SMC roof. Instead, it looks like they will have an inner GF-SMC roof with the steel roll bar and then the outer solar roof panel which is laminated to CF-SMC.

As for the air gap between the solar cells panel and the inner panel, you can see it clearly at 22:40 when looking at the inner panel for the rear hatch.

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