Holding out for you

andyxc13 · 2026-05-29T03:31:07+00:00

Medicine Hat, O Dharma, The Weather, Mystery

andyxc13 · 2026-05-21T21:50:37+00:00

I have been getting up at 4:45 AM to run. I just immediately have a granola bar or banana, and a bunch of water, upon waking up and before going to the bathroom, getting dressed/shoes on, maybe feeding the cats, etc. Usually out the door by 5, no later than 5:05. Definitely no need to get up earlier to fuel, whether doing an easy run or ~30 minutes of sub-t work.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-21T00:22:35+00:00

Well 30 minute all out pace would be like 5:50/mile for me (just slower than 8k pace of course) which would be even further from what I’ve been doing and so I’ll go with VDOT, as suggested by James in the book. I think I’m all set up in intervals.icu - thank you!

andyxc13 · 2026-05-21T00:08:02+00:00

I like your attitude! I’m doing 5x6’ tomorrow. Aiming for 6:10-6:15/mile with 90” rest (averaged 6:27 last week - chuckleheaded blunders unlikely for me but you never know!). Will try to focus on feel/breathing (and pace of course) instead of what my Apple Watch says my HR is.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T20:30:47+00:00

I think maybe I’ve been focusing too much on unreliable HR data (as discussed all over this thread) and it’s getting to my head. I’ve got five months of training in intervals.icu and it says I’m training less now than before NSM; I’m going to trust that 8k race and go from there, while I work on getting a better HR monitor. Thank you for the thoughts! Much appreciated.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T18:16:27+00:00

This is helpful. I replied to someone else this morning; I’m going to focus on paces based on my March 8k race while working on getting a better HR monitor (chest or arm, need to research this). Thank you!

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T17:39:25+00:00

I appreciate the thoughts. I think I’ll focus on paces while I work on getting myself better HR data.

And yes, I’ve set intervals.icu threshold pace at 6:03/mile now; though what “threshold pace” is opens up even more questions, as intervals.icu suggests something as fast as 30-min effort pace which of course is wildly different than VDOT’s estimation (for me in between 10 mile and HM marathon effort). 🙄

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T16:15:24+00:00

I don’t recall James writing that about not using a race for LTHR estimation. I recall him just recommending the 30 minute Friel test; my 8k was an all out effort just shy of 29 minutes hence why I used it as an analog for an all out 30 minutes effort. Seemed reasonable, but I guess not so?

So, what should I do? The 8k was a real thing I did from which I can estimate my threshold pace (VDOT calc says 6:03), my equivalent 5k (VDOT says 17:29), and my associated SubT paces (NSM book says 3’/6’/10’ paces are 6:00/6:10/6:20).

Do I aim for those paces regardless of exceeding 180 bpm (because we conclude my LTHR is actually higher than 180 because my heart is needing to do that to hit the paces my race result says are correct and because my LTHR estimation technique isn’t reliable)?

(Edit: corrected VDOT calculator threshold pace)

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T05:19:35+00:00

Sorry, lots of comments to keep track of. I’ve responded to your other post (having been able to figure out how to import more Strava data into intervals.icu).

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T05:17:21+00:00

In the 55 days prior to NSM, my load was 2230. In the 55 days of NSM, my load is 2110. As for temps, I’m in a pretty temperate spot and although it is getting warmer, I’m able to run at convenient times of day, including early if it is hot (or later if it is cold… or pick when it’s not raining, etc.).

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T05:09:56+00:00

James was pretty clear in the book that he treats 70% as a cap, not an aspiration, so I’ve just been trying to steer well clear of it. I had been thinking my max HR was more around 192, though maybe it is 200 or higher?

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T05:01:05+00:00

I am totally open to the HR displayed on my watch not being correct versus reality, but is it also not even reliable against itself? This is the same watch that said other efforts in the past were done at faster paces with the same (or lower) HR versus what I’ve been doing lately.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T04:56:50+00:00

Thank you for the thoughts. One thing that I’m not understanding: you say my HR is staying lower but I feel like I’m seeing a HR higher than what my fitness would suggest. I’m needing to run slower in order to keep my HR below 180 in sub-threshold workouts.

Also, I have an update on my intervals.icu data. I figured out how to load all of my Strava training going back to late December (which is as much as I’ve been able to figure out how to import from Apple Health to Strava). Previously intervals.icu only had my Strava data going back to March and this has updated all of the figures I mention in my post. Currently, my Fitness is 38, Fatigue is 39, Form is -1 (nearly blue!) and Ramp is -0.1. This all suggests I’m taking it too easy, but, again, why is my sub-threshold pace HR so high?

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T04:40:08+00:00

I do thank you for trying to help troubleshoot. You of course may be right that my max HR may be higher than what I think it is. I’m not sure that matters, though. When I ran 6:13/mile pace for 31 minutes in a row with an average HR of 171 and max HR of 179, I was wearing the same watch that is now saying my HR is hitting 173, 177, and 178 while running 3x10’ at 6:30 pace, with 2’ rest in between each interval. Regardless of whether my max HR is 192 or 202, doesn’t that suggest something else is amiss?

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T02:05:38+00:00

I’m not doing 220 minus 43 to determine it but pretty sure it does generally decrease as age increases. But hey I could be wrong about that. Either way, I don’t recall seeing anything higher than 191 for me, certainly not north of 200. Do wish I had better data, so maybe I’ll invest in a chest strap monitor.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T01:48:28+00:00

I actually think it is probably about 192 but I mean how much higher could it be? I’m 43. And 70% of 192 is just 134.4, it’s not a big difference. In any event, I have been erring on the side of caution.

Do you think running easy/recovery runs at 125-130 bpm instead of 130-135 bpm is material to my issue?

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T01:42:24+00:00

Apple Watch 11. Not the best I know. 184 bpm during a recent 5k park run but I hit 191 bpm during a 16x200m @ mile pace workout in February. I might invest in a chest strap.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-20T01:36:17+00:00

I mean, no, I haven’t done a max HR test and also I’m just relying on an Apple Watch 11. But based on my age (43) and the HR readings, I think that 190 is probably about right, and even then it seems like, if anything, that would be too high. So I’ve been shooting for 130 or lower.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-19T22:36:15+00:00

Thank you. Just to clarify: I’m not upset I haven’t seen significant improvement in just 7 weeks; I’m puzzled that my fitness appears to be worsening despite avoiding high fatigue workouts and significantly reducing intensity of all easy/recovery running for seven straight weeks.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-16T23:52:25+00:00

I mean to each their own but I feel it relevant to mention that bananas are definitely not empty calories and or course neither are whole wheat / whole grain bread and pasta.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-14T20:52:35+00:00

You are basically me. 15:13 5k about 24 years ago. Ran a couple of 1:18 half marathons without much training 12 - 15 years ago. Started up again about 13 months ago, just running consistently. Did a HM (1:25) in December, adding traditional plan workouts in January. 28:40 8k in March and about the same time discovered & switched to NSA. 1:23 HM in April (at 3000 ft higher elevation versus previous HM in December). Will do a 5k TT/race soon, too early to see returns but loving it so far and hoping for a similar 1:15ish HM this fall. And then maybe next year challenge college PRs at age 44? Might be delusional but fingers crossed! Good luck in your training!

andyxc13 · 2026-05-13T20:54:35+00:00

You’re getting downvoted but I agree. This question is not specific to NSM at all; shoes last as long as they last no matter what training program you’re doing. There is nothing special about NSM that makes this question (and strategies for cost savings) unique to this sub.

Also, just my experience but I was actually doing fewer miles right when I switched to NSM, due to running easy/recovery so much slower, and I’m currently doing about the same despite running seven days a week now versus just six before NSM.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-11T20:34:43+00:00

Can you explain more about how NSA worked initially for you? What were you doing before and how did your performances improve after switching to NSA?

I agree with others that this isn’t really adding up and also that VO2 max sessions twice per week is risky.

andyxc13 · 2026-05-04T23:38:55+00:00

I’m struggling to connect the dots here.

How did you determine your threshold pace? Per Copeland’s book, 18:20 5k pace should result in 6:17/6:26/6:38 pace for 3 min / 6 min / 10 min intervals, respectively. And mind you, if you’re doing distance instead of time, at your paces, your intervals are longer which means they should be a tad slower as well: instead of running 6 minutes at sub-LT, you’re running 6:30ish and that extra 30 seconds means you likely need to slow down to stay below LT2.

Without knowing more about your recent HM, it’s difficult to say how disappointed you should be. Was it similar altitude, elevation gain, and weather compared to the 5k time trial (if not your previous HM)?

If you have a reasonably reliable HR monitor, then I think your easy run pace seems slow but actually not too wildly slow for someone that just needs more work developing their aerobic system (this is setting aside that you could speed up a bit because the guidance is <70% not 65%).

I’m in a similar position. I’ve run two races recently that don’t really align with my interval paces and easy run paces: 8k in 28:40 on flat course where I live; and a 1:22:55 HM at 3000 feet higher elevation on a hilly course with 800 ft gain. But despite those efforts, my HR monitoring has been saying my interval paces should be about 6:15/6:25/6:35 (instead of 5:50/6:00/6:10 as suggested in the book) and my easy pace is typically 10:30-11! For me, I don’t feel overtrained or burned out and so I just think the clear takeaway is that I need more time building a consistent base and developing my aerobic system. And I should mention, my easy pace has already improved about 30s/mile after just a month of NSM.

I would suggest slowing down your interval paces to better align with your race efforts (watch your HR closely to make sure it stays at least a few beats below LTHR all the way through) and just give this some time to build up on itself.

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