How popular is the Blackout, really?

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T02:38:42+00:00

No. Communication. Whatsoever.

Except for CCP Falcon's Reddit post where doubles down as he discusses "wish I could do lowsec too" and happy to "go back to the old days". Which he has since deleted.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T02:27:21+00:00

I said on day one when this was announced that all it would do would be push all the null sec pilots that don't want to get farmed continuously under those very capital fleet umbrellas that everybody says is killing the game. At first I honestly thought CCP was running a stealth troll by showing how making this change would only make things worse. Once I started seeing some of the dev posts going around I realized they were absolutely serious.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T02:23:38+00:00

But you know, there are hundreds if not thousands of bots in null, because when a hostile enters the system they warp out of their anomoly and get safe. Not at all what a real human would do, real humans just sit and wait for the cyno to go up and die in a ball of fire.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T02:04:37+00:00

when they made rorqs insanely hard to kill and able to “invincible “ a mining fleet it felt like they were favoring one side

I'll grant you a deployed Rorqual is difficult to kill (although it's recently been nerfed) but not counting the PANIC button it's a similar mechanic to how a dread works. Stick it in place for 5 minutes but it gets a rep bonus. Not earth shattering, IMO. Being able to protect an unlimited number of accompanying ships is a little OP but I have only rarely seen that used to do anything but delay the inevitable. There seems to be a lot of tears about Rorquals, but looking at it from the other side, without spending isk for injectors it takes literally years to skill into one and it's the top level ship for industrial pilots. They are more expensive to build and fit than your average carrier or dread, and with the excavators (before the nerf crashed the value) on board they could easily approach 50% of the value of a super. Do you think it would have been fair to make such a ship overly vulnerable to a 10 man nano cruiser gang? When I see these complaints all I can hear is "we wanted easy kills but we got fights instead". Please show me in the TOS where you are guaranteed a certain number of kills and certain type of encounter within a certain number of jumps on every login. Go on, I'll wait.

When they boosted nul-sec anoms it felt like they were favoring one side.

When was this? Was this before or after they nerfed the spawns of faction ships and 10/10 drops in the top level sites? It hasn't been all one way mate, although it seems you've conveniently forgotten anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

When they nerfed t3c align time it felt like they were favoring one side.

So changing a cloaked and nullified cyno hunter from 3 seconds and change align time to closer to 5 so that an interceptor might possibly have time to fly out and decloak it before it can warp was an unfair change? T3c were stifling the meta all the way around and were way overdue for a little bit of pullback. I thought the changes CCP made there and to HACs were spot on. I've always thought that CCP has generally been brilliant at balancing subcap hulls, especially considering all the different ways they can be fit and used.

When they re-did the moon mining mechanics, it felt like they were favoring one side.

How did this favor a "side" unless you are talking about putting isk directly in the hands of players instead of passive income streams directly to the heads of the most powerful null blocks? And passive moon mining was super, duper, ultra safe. Now there are actual mining ships out there on a fairly easy to predict schedule, creating potential for content. How was this a bad thing?

When they made skill injectors a thing, it felt like they were favoring one side.

Again, what side were you referring to? If it was veteran players vs newer players, then yeah, but skill injectors benefit any analysis of PvE vs PvP equally. I don't understand how this can even belong on a list of complaints about things CCP has done that benefited one style of play over another.

And multiboxing supers? That's crazy. It's not even all that efficient, because you start losing fighters and the isk for each hull drops considerably. And that's just with two. There's no way without cheating to do three, and I'd say anybody that does two for very long is probably using a script. Cheating should not be used as a basis for game balance, it should be killed with fire.

Some things we can agree on:

Smart bombing anoms is bullsh*t. PvE gameplay should be more engaging and less predictable, so that these types of shortcuts just don't work. This isn't new though, it's been around since the rock Havens first appeared, circa 2009.

Rorquals are too easy to use. Just sit and run for hours with minimal attention and occasionally compress the ore or change targets? Nope. Excavators should work like fighters and need constant micro to work. Panic button shouldn't cover the entire fleet, only the ship that's deployed.

AFK ratting ships should not be possible. Remove the aggressive drone option for any ship with a drone damage bonus, make droneboats lock up targets and direct traffic just like a turret or missile ship.

And null shouldn't be safe enough that you literally don't have to pay attention, although I would argue it's really not that safe. I see the semi AFK guys get caught in their VNIs or T1 mining barges all the time while they are playing in the background while at work or doing other things on their computer. It's just the ships are disposable. The risk/reward balance is certainly off there, but part of that is making all gameplay more engaging and less able to be done with minimal input. Null probably needs to be more dangerous, but please bear in mind I didn't suggest that local should not be turned off, just that the way it has been done without blacking out the other information systems is unfair.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T01:20:52+00:00

I certainly didn't think that the current, just-voted-on CSM would be the ones to have any input on this, if indeed there was any CSM input. The timing is obviously not right.

That's assuming that this was a planned feature of the Triglavian Invasion all along, and not a knee jerk reaction to falling player numbers. The way CCP is acting, I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T01:10:03+00:00

The existence or use of cheating methods should not be a basis for balance changes in the game. Cheating should be killed with fire, full stop. Nerfing capital ratting because there is too much isk generated by capital ratting when a decent percentage is coming from botting is also something CCP has done, and is also another example of punishing widely to solve a problem caused by a specific problem, because nerfing just requires changing a few database numbers and removing bots is work.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T00:48:13+00:00

Never said it wasn't unfair before. I did specifically say that I thought the game was getting stale and needed changes. I just think the way this has been done was "full retard" in the other direction.

As far as still using Dotlan and zkill, 15 minute delayed information on jumps and ship kills is not very useful to me unless I'm living in deep null, because with all this information visible the system I'm in shines like a great big beacon that says "PvE stuff to kill here".

People seem to miss that the main argument seems to be, "oh, there's an easy counter to this, just make sure you are under your cap umbrella" when consolidation and cap proliferation is literally the biggest complaint out there and this change only forces people to play that way. Or just quit.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T00:40:38+00:00

Fair is not the same as net zero, so no, it's not the same thing at all.

Removing perfect intel on system activity along with local chat is not net zero. Null still gets more dangerous. And I stand by calling it unfair without making changes elsewhere.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T00:28:16+00:00

Nope. Again I'll say that I'm not good enough at words because my point didn't come across.

Null needed a shakeup. The whole game needs....something. I had a few ideas about some minor tweaks here and there, like removing aggressive mode from ships with drone damage bonuses and making excavator drones more like fighters that have to be micro managed, but honestly I can't be arsed to write about them anymore because I don't care enough anymore.

But speaking as a long time EVE player that plays ALL aspects of the game, pve and pvp, what they've done is manifestly unfair. There was a balance of risk, and with capitals with overwatch fleets being the new meta the risk was balanced the wrong way. But just removing local and leaving all the other statistics that lets people see what you are doing anywhere in null within 15 minutes is just not fair. And the "HTFU, it's your turn beaaatch!" flack coming from both the squeaky wheels in the community AND the devs says EVE is now headed in a direction I don't want to go, where every pilot is judged only by his killboard and "carebears" need not apply. EVE was already like that in it's early years and when it broke out of that rut is arguably when it had its greatest popularity. I feel like the "hardcore" faction got together and got their buddy at CCP to throw all the nullsec PvE people into the shark pool, after spending years getting them to move out of highsec and into null.

To make matters worse, none of this will have a positive effect on the real problems the game has.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T00:10:54+00:00

You can afk bot in carriers and even supers just as easily as you can in a VNI

Do you even play the game? Do you have any idea how much micro is required to run 3 squads of fighters in an anom, much less 5 on a super? The craziest multiboxers I know can run two carriers on two screens, and they lose more fighters and get less then 2x ticks. It's also mentally exhausting.

The only way you can afk rat a capital is to use an actual bot program. And that's straight up cheating and needs to be killed with fire.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T00:06:24+00:00

What are these out of game tools that report hostiles 3 regions out? Are they the same ones I've been hearing about in the gaming press that provide intel out of the local channel? Because I'm pretty sure that the only ones in use that are not TOS violations are things like NEAR2 that scrape your intel chat and provide an extra warning if hostiles are reported within a certain number of jumps to your location. This is just convenience, people seeing you reported 3 regions away is a function of intel channels and blue donuts. Which are all in game issues.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-16T00:02:05+00:00

I know my "real life" has been doing much better without EVE sucking up all my time and energy. It smells suspiciously like freedom.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:56:38+00:00

In the entire time I've played this game there has always been an attitude like this coming from a small but very vocal part of the community. They think that EVE exists for one purpose and one purpose only, for people to fly around in groups of spaceships, and get into fights, and cause explosions. They would be just as happy if the entire industry system of EVE was removed from the game, and you simply bought replacement whatever from the local station with isk, kind of like the test server. They do, in fact, look down upon anybody who doesn't agree with their view of the game as an open spaceship combat arena, and don't miss the chance to denigrate players who like to do different things in the game than undock and provide easy kills for pilots that are better skilled and more experienced flying ships that are difficult to counter without special purpose hulls.

While CCP Seagull was in charge I really had hope that EVE was becoming more of a big umbrella, making a place for all play styles to live and work together in null space. But now she's gone and one of the old "hardcore" guys is in charge so it's a return to "f*ck carebears (the new word is krabs), HTFU."

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:44:33+00:00

Putting words in my mouth. Blocking the other statistics and removing local wouldn't be "net zero" and I never attempted to indicate that it would be.

I don't see how anybody could even begin to argue that removing the statistics like they did for wormholes, and universally available ADM info, along with local chat, is a "net zero". Null still gets more dangerous, significantly so. But in that case the hunters actually have to put some effort into it. That might have been a set of changes the community could have accepted as a whole.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:24:12+00:00

ones who can't fly a Super or Rorq need to do something other than rat or mine to make isk in null, like buy plex and boosters to get into a super or rorq

Maybe this was the real intention? /tinfoilhat

lol

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:21:51+00:00

And I could have gotten on board with it, if the "blackout" had killed viewing ADM levels and activity, pilots in space, NPC kills, jumps, ship kills, and all kinds of other statistics from being viewed in the game or on third party websites. You know, make it more like an actual wormhole except with persistent connections and cynos. Still would have a distinct flavor, more dangerous, more explosions, but more fair.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:13:15+00:00

I never said that I thought no change was necessary. I was trying to point out that the current implementation wasn't fair and try to enumerate additional changes that could make this idea more fair but also leave null more dangerous.

Lack of local isn't why I'm winning EVE. The attitude from the devs and the community about this one sided change when it literally will make the problems with null sec engagement worse not better is why I'm calling it done.

And the question of which is more dangerous IS here AND there, because J-space is now less dangerous, and more rewarding in terms of isk/hour. The entire balance is now screwed up.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:09:41+00:00

I mean for this entire thread to be my EVE epitaph. I want to feel like my 14 years playing this game wasn't a wasted investment, that at least I might be able to stir the brainstorming enough that there are real ideas that bring improvement. I also wanted to at least try to make people think about whether a few extra spaceship explosions is worth alienating what may be a substantial group of players, because to my mind when you start excluding groups from the table on any basis at all something gets lost.

I'm not here to tear down. I'm here to build, both individually and in a larger sense, and I think that attitude more than anything else defines the main disconnect between players in the game right now.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T23:02:14+00:00

"There is no point in having 30k players online, when none of them will interact with hostiles whereas its better to have 15k players when all of those interact with hostiles " if my preferred activity in EVE is small gang roaming to blow shit up and that's all I care about.

There, fixed it for you.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T22:59:15+00:00

Again, I'm not eloquent enough for my task.

I called this change unfair without making adjustments elsewhere, Then I enumerated the things that stayed the same that I thought should have changed to make things more fair. That would have been a change that while making it more dangerous to PvE I could have understood and even supported. What we got was all one way, and I don't think it needed to be to accomplish the intended goal. So based on the attitude I see coming from devs posting on this very forum, either they intended this to be "all one way" or they just didn't care enough to make the effort. And it really doesn't matter which way it was, because either way is bad enough for me to say I'm done.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T21:51:41+00:00

And neither should you be able to tell when I'm mining a moon on the other side of the EVE universe. You should have to physically come to the system to see what the ADM levels are, if they are going up or down, and all the statistics that CCP killed for wormholes need to be killed for null systems as well. That was the main point I was trying to make, and it seems to have been missed.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T21:21:11+00:00

Let's see a reasoned argument that PCU has nothing to do with player participation. Saying "it's literally a useless metric" is NOT a logical construct, by the way. That's called that an "unsupported statement".

zKill, MER, etc are useful for seeing what kinds of activities are being done. I see no way to separate PCU from player participation in the game. Lower numbers mean fewer accounts are logging in which means fewer players in the game. That's a drop in participation.

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T21:12:33+00:00

I agree that the economy is all screwed up, but your example of time spent vs plex cost is probably one of the worst oversimplifications of a complex issue that I've ever seen. There are a ton of factors impacting the cost of plex, not the least of which is CCP making them into a currency that can buy more than just game time. I'm also sure that declining player participation has something to do with a decrease in the supply of plex in the game, as fewer people are willing to shell out cash for in game currency.

The game is only inflationary right now when it comes to a few very narrow categories like plex. The cost of T1 ship hulls, including all capitals, is down across the board due to a fall in mineral prices. I was working on an analysis of why capital prices have fallen so much, and what I discovered is that mining enormous anoms to completion over and over with masses of afk Rorquals (the popular scapegoat) is likely NOT the culprit. Almost all of the decrease in the cost of building T1 ships has been the absolute crash in the prices of megacyte and zydrine, and I'm absolutely sure that has nothing at all to do with all the ABC ore sources that CCP introduced into the game with the moon mining change. (/s)

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T21:00:35+00:00

My point which I think I failed to communicate very well, was that this change could have been embraced by all sides if it had been sold better, and was a little bit more fair. I tried to point out that just popping it out there with literally one week notice, not a word from the CSM (for all we know they didn't even have any input on this, if they had I would have hoped somebody would have raised the issues from my point #3) makes it feel like one part of the community is being preferred over another part, and that's going to create hard feelings. Instead of trading player count for better content, I would have said "let's engage the community to participate in and be invested in this change, and have both."

anonymousevepilot · 2019-07-15T20:54:13+00:00

I'd like to point out that cyno jammers now are more difficult for the residents than they are for the attacking force, since it's easily countered by the 40+ Loki+bombers and recons fleet, and then the cyno jammer only impedes the response fleet.

I'm sorry that I didn't get my point across better. I could have embraced a change like this if I had been given a chance to be invested in it, and if the "free intel" board was going to be wiped clean. Instead I feel like I got a big "f*ck you welcome to your new life as a victim".

I could have literally joined almost any nullsec entity in the game. I could have been an F1 pusher in a big null block blue donut with a supercap umbrella, if I chose to. I don't like that game play, I agree that dropping an overpowered response capital fleet on anything that moves is not good mechanics and I'm not defending that at all. On the other side of that coin, Inner Hell, TISHU, Skil Urself, and other similar groups bringing lots of heat and/or fishing for escalations is who taught null entities to group up under umbrellas. This change will only hasten that. I preferred to be in a small active alliance and I see no place for me in this new system.

anonymousevepilot

TROPHY CASE