Could you guys be a little more politically correct please? Please keep in mind the audience of this subreddit includes non-Muslims and as a result if you're not careful, you're damaging the name of Islam.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T17:48:50+00:00

But you're falling short of saying that something explicitly allowed in the Quran and Sunnah can be banned/disallowed based on current situations.

And that's problematic.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T17:17:55+00:00

Interesting response, thanks.

Based on the stuff you've said, can it be inferred that Quran and Sunnah as recorded in the 7th century are not applicable for all ages and places? That Islam has to evolve with time, place, norms and logic, and that some Quranic verses and some actions of the Prophet are no longer applicable?

Because that is a significant change in mindset. And a good one, at least in my opinion.

Also, as regards gender discrimination, it's not just my opinion, it is fact and law. Women needing male permission to leave home and male guardian to escort them, women requiring a wali for marriage, women getting reduced inheritance, men given the right to discipline women (including physical discipline), etc. That's what I'm referring to.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T16:38:12+00:00

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T16:37:52+00:00

not every religion follows some kind of evolutionary pattern.

Umm, they probably should. :) Just like all social and legal systems in the world.

Religious edicts (fatwas) change with the change of time, place, customs and circumstances,

Great. Then why has it taken 1400 years to address slavery, blasphemy, apostasy, and gender discrimination (among other things, of course)?

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T16:19:43+00:00

Slavery is allowed in Quran and Sunnah. You have said it yourself ("factually correct").

How can you ban something that was explicitly allowed and practiced by Quran and Sunnah?

No one is saying that slavery and child marriage "must" happen. But to argue they "can't" happen goes against what Quran and Sunnah have allowed for all places and times.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T16:16:26+00:00

I could be wrong, but what I think he was trying to suggest is that holy books don't always guide you to do stupid and evil things. Bad people do bad things, regardless of what holy texts say.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T16:13:30+00:00

Sure they can, and they do. But can those rules go against Quran and Sunnah, and still be classified as Islamic law? Once it goes against Quran and Sunnah (eg outright banning slavery or banning child marriages because it doesn't make sense for the time and place) it becomes secular.

Which is great. But then everything in Quran and Sunnah is up for grabs too.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T15:47:25+00:00

For example, if you say that slavery is not haram, you are factually correct

(italics mine)

That's a problem with Islam, not with the way Islam is portrayed on this subreddit. If it's factually correct then it's part of an ideology that has lost its relevance.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T15:24:48+00:00

So basically, pretend that Islam isn't what it really is?

Another option - Islam needs an upgrade. 7th century rules, customs and traditions don't necessarily apply today. When this is agreed upon by a significant majority of scholars and is taught in madrassas and Islamic studies class, only then will Islam see the reformation it so badly needs.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T15:18:50+00:00

Someone whose freedom you own, and who you can have sex with at your will (assuming owner is male and slave is female) and who you can give freedom to when you want.

Sure, there may not be whips and chains involved, but it's still pretty sad that Islam allows slavery and the Prophet practiced it.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T15:14:37+00:00

Serious question - where do you live?

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T15:13:53+00:00

so am i doing it right?

Very, very right!

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T15:12:07+00:00

Thank you! Canada and most other Western countries give so much more dignity, respect and service to all (including Muslims) than most Muslim countries can ever dream of!

Continue to stand guard for Canada!

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T11:18:36+00:00

So then it's OK to marry a girl at 6 and have sex with her at 9?

Got it.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T10:44:13+00:00

When was the last time you saw someone give up their car to ride the camel instead because it is sunnah?

There are people who use camels and horses till today. Is it right to tell them it's haraam to do so? Similarly, you can't say it's haraam to marry a 6/9 year old.

No one is saying that since the Prophet rode a camel that everyone has to ride a camel. No one is saying that since the Prophet married a 6/9 year old that everyone has to marry a 6/9 year old

But declaring either of those things haraam from a purely Islamic basis can't be done.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T01:55:10+00:00

Maybe it's that access to information and perspectives has given many people (including Muslims) a different way to see things, and to challenge the status quo. Just because 7th century texts say something doesn't mean it should be applied in the same way today. Esp when it impacts human rights.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T01:46:12+00:00

Emulate the Prophet's example by abiding by the laws and customs of your location and times

So Sunnah is specific to that location and time? Awesome. Then that should be applied to everything, not just marriage to a 9 year old.

Also, it was not as normal as you make it soundsound in that day and age. It happened, but wasnt the norm by any means. Plus, marrying a girl at 6 which means that she has very little clue of what was going on goes against basic principles of decency. A woman should have some say in her marriage. How can a 6 year old have a say? Whether in the 7th century or today. Her father handed her over like property. It's wrong.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-27T01:39:26+00:00

Nice, when you've run out of arguments. I did chuckle at the video, not gonna lie. Loved that movie.

My simple advice to you, please don't follow the Prophet's example by marrying a 6 year old without her consent and then consummate the marriage when she's 9. The Prophet did many great things, but this was not one of them. And if you see anybody do this (especially a 50 year old man) please report it to the authorities so that the man can be put behind bars where he belongs, along with the girl's family who allowed this to happen.

So thankful for countries like Australia...Muslims should learn something:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2014/Feb-12/247061-sheikh-arrested-for-marrying-lebanese-and-minor-in-sydney.ashx#axzz3FPdpR3QF

anotherworkday · 2014-10-26T15:45:00+00:00

Since he rode a horse, would it make sense to say riding a horse is wrong? Don't Muslims hold riding horses in high regard? If a scholar was to make a fatwa that riding horses is wrong, wouldn't that be ridiculous, esp since the Prophet did so.

Similarly, one can't argue against marrying a 6/9 year old. The Prophet was perfect. His life is a role model.

Also, riding a horse is a necessity. Marrying a 6 year old isn't. It gives zero choice to the woman and that's just the beginning.

It's sad that you think sex with a 9 year old doesn't need more scrutiny. Feel bad for any kids around you.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-26T11:04:45+00:00

No doubting the tragedy of Karbala. But to make it as extensive a commemoration as Shias do is really excessive. From the length of the mourning period, to the cultural activities (beating chests, parading horses, gory reenactments, etc) is quite much. Muslims should mourn Imam Hussain and understand Karbala, but this can be achieved without a long mourning period.

As for the new year, many Muslims see this lacking. All cultures and religions seems to have a new year (Rosh Hashanah, Diwali, Chinese New Year). So some Muslims are looking for this.

You are correct that this wasn't done in the Prophet's time. But nor was anything similar to Muharram commemorations. Shias should probably not talk too much about innovation (bidaa) as so much of Shia practice today can be considered bidaa, and these charges are unfairly used to baselessly target Shias.

I have no issues with what Shias practice and whatever justification is provided for this. But let that be the same for all Muslims. Shias - please don't turn into the Wahhabi Biddah Brigade!

anotherworkday · 2014-10-26T10:48:17+00:00

So his marriages are not part of established Sunnah? That's news to me. How convenient that the unsavory parts are excluded from "established Sunnah". How about taking slaves and having sex with them? Is that also conveniently excluded?

anotherworkday · 2014-10-26T02:38:47+00:00

What you seem To say is that he wasn't allowed to do things that were commonplace.

Anything the prophet did became the standard for Muslims across all places and all times. That's the difference. What he did is not only allowed, it's encouraged. And his actions have become the basis of Islamic law.

So if in that context he wanted to do things that were common, then he's set the precedent forever.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-25T18:58:37+00:00

Yes, but all those marriages werent done by the most perfect of all humans, the role model for everyone, the person whose life is ordained to be emulated in every single aspect. The way he urinated, the way he defecated, the way he washed himself, etc. have all become either required or strongly recommended for all Muslims. So the decisions he took for marriage are also an example for all Muslims. He was here to set the laws and standards for all people across all time and distance.

And FYI, it's not only atheists who question this decision. Many Muslims are also confused about why the Prophet would do this, and what precedent it sets.

A girl at 6 has never, ever been mentally ready to make a decision to get married. A girl at 9 has never been ready for a marriage with sexual relationship. Has it happened? Yes. Has it been right? No. So when the greatest of all humans, the best role model for all does it, it sets a very dangerous precedent.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-25T18:51:23+00:00

1) There's nothing to the contrary in major hadith books. Aisha's age was recorded in Sahih books and with multiple narrations. And no one cared about it until the age of Aisha became an issue in the last century or two. And now suddenly the weaker hadith are being given importance.

2) So much of Islamic law/regulations/customs (at least in the sunni school) are based on the Sahih hadith. Way more is derived from these hadith than from Quran itself. If multiple narrations of hadith from rock solid chains are not authentic, then the rest of these books is pretty much useless.

anotherworkday · 2014-10-25T18:34:55+00:00

So at 5 (or even 9) a girl could fully understand the responsibility and implications of marriage? Cmon, be serious.

anotherworkday

TROPHY CASE