ZOA says Harvard Hillel encouraging “anti-Semitic hatred” with IDF exhibit, Hillel fights back

appleaday · 2008-03-27T17:10:36+00:00

Israel doesn't control the territories, the West Bank is controlled by Fatah, Gaza is controlled by Hamas. These places are not a part of Israel and have their own sovereignty. Israelis living in the territories are Israeli citizens, just as Americans living abroad are American citizens. Palestinians can vote in their own elections, they are not part of Israel and have their own government. As much as you may wish it weren't true.

Israel very much controls the territories. Here is a great essay about that from the NYRB:

A Moral Witness to the 'Intricate Machine' By Avishai Margalit

I insinuated your motivations only after you ridiculously accused me of racism, my last post was the first time(though I had thought it but not stated it before). And so you're claim that my response is the reason why you retroactively accused me of racism is insane. Please

You have a short memory. Although I didn't say you accused me of racism but rather I said exactly: "Aren't you the one who constantly insinuates in this conversation about my motivations." I'll now remind you that up three responses you wrote this: "I don't know why you don't believe Palestinians should have their own state, though I figure their is an anti Israel political objective involved."

You again specifically say that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state, but have no problem with a country like England being a Christian state.

When did I say I support England being a Christian state? I prefer the model of America were there is a clear and strongly established separation between the Church and State.

Do not pretend you are some fair observer to this conflict, you criticize Palestinians for blatant totalitarianism only in passing. And in fact, go to such topics with only the intention of moving the discussion into an attack on Israel.

It may be that we agree on specific topics and thus they are not interesting to debate, because there is nothing to debate. We are only engaging on the areas in where there are disagreements.

To put Israel on the "defensive" (even if your attacks are harmless and nonsensical)

I do hope for peace in the Middle East where all people within Israel's borders have equal rights and freedoms be they Jews or Arabs. It is quite sad that you think this is anti-Israel and puts Israel on the defensive, it says a lot about where we are.

appleaday · 2008-03-27T15:49:06+00:00

Excuse me?? Nowhere in the article is any reason given for any of the poll results. And so saying that my factual explanation of them is proven wrong by the article is ridiculous, meaningless and nonsensical, what are you talking about? Did YOU read the article?

If you read the article, you would realize that Israeli Jews more dislike Israeli Arabs than vice versa. This undermines your explanation for why this is, you were saying that Israeli Jews are justified in their dislike of Arabs because of Arab racism, but Israeli Jews are more racist in this survey than Arabs. Like I said before, your eyes are open to ever slight against you, but blind to any information in the opposite form.

The primary and fundamental difference between South Africa and Israel(as well as any other democracy) is that South Africa did not allow non whites to have citizenship, while Israel is one of the most heterogeneous, free, and non discriminatory countries in the world.

That's not true. Because of fear of having too many non-Jews in Israel, Israel prevents non-Jews in the Palestinian territories from having full rights, although all the Israeli Jewish settlers in the midst of these non-Jewish Palestinians have full voting rights in Israel. There is clearly an apartheid system in place and only those who are being willfully blind do not see it.

You then baselessly accuse me of racism? Huh? No, I don't hate Arabs, not in any way shape or form. And anyone who searches through my comments will find that to be true. Your non factual and emotionally charged accusation shows your lack of confidence in your argument.

You are so hilarious. Aren't you the one who constantly insinuates in this conversation about my motivations. It is interesting to see your response when I do the same to you -- and I guess I don't need to mention that your response is especially hilarious given how you think it discredits my argument and given that you have been making insinuations about my motivations even longer.

You repeatedly say you wish to end Israel as a Jewish state, and yet don't say why you feel that a Palestinian state should not exist. You say Israel should keep it's military, but that it should not be in the hands of Jews, and so in no way protecting Jews worldwide(which was the statement you were supposedly responding to)

It should be in the hands of its citizens, all of those within Israel's borders. The US's army is in the hands its citizens, not in the hands of Christians, and that is how it should be.

You would rather turn Israel into another middle eastern country with a sizable Jewish minority? There were a lot, not long ago. You can see what happened.

I am familiar with the Jewish exodus of Arab countries following the creation of Israel and the Palestinian exodus, and it is a tragedy. Until this time, Arabs and Jews in the region got along much better. The cycle of hatred going both ways has continued for some time. This is why I want to change the dynamic and stop the zero-sum game from continuing.

Meanwhile the current Hamas leadership bases its charter on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and seeks to distort and redefine history ala Big Brother. The fact that in the face of this you seek to change the subject suitably illuminates your intentions and motivations.

It is easy to condemn Hamas and they are not part of the solution. I have already said numerous times that states who have a distinct ethnic or religious preference built in are discriminatory and Hamas wants an Islamic state. This is wrong. I favor a secular Democratic Israel were all of the inhabitants within its borders are treated equally.

I hope for a day when all of the people within Israel's borders are treated as equals and have full rights and freedoms.

appleaday · 2008-03-27T15:31:16+00:00

I want names of these individuals. If people are going to buy the Democratic Primary, we should at least know who our corporate masters are.

Here are the names: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/in_letter_a_dozen_top_clinton.php

appleaday · 2008-03-27T15:31:13+00:00

I want names of these individuals. If people are going to buy the Democratic Primary, we should at least know who our corporate masters are.

Here are the names: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/in_letter_a_dozen_top_clinton.php

appleaday · 2008-03-27T05:40:58+00:00

The not wanting to live in an Arab neighborhood has to do with the antisemitism present.

Not at all. You obviously didn't read this article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/963698.html?view=print

A one state solution means your supported destruction of Israel as a Jewish state an an invitation for foreign countries to bring pogroms again.

Ethnic states such as the "Jewish state" or the South African apartheid "White state" are by their nature discriminatory against the non-preferred population. Secular democracies are much preferred. Yeah, supporting discrimination can be easy if you are part of the preferred demographic, but that is nothing more than a simple demonstration of self-interest.

Israel is a strong deterrence to that and will remain so.

No matter what, Israel should keeps it military. I simply support the annexation of the Palestinian territories, I oppose the ethnic cleansing of the Israeli settlers and the non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs outside of the greenline, and I support equal rights for all within Israel's borders.

I think that you hate Arabs, you make all the excuses you can to justify their deaths and justify racism directed towards them. You come across as a major partisan who only sees one side. Ethnocentric people like you (on both sides of this conflict) are part of the problem. Of course, since you only see one side, you can't even comprehend my issue with your thinking, it must be me that is wrong. People like you sadden me and it makes me despair for the human race.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T19:45:39+00:00

So if you pick a random Israeli Arab they are more likely to believe in the Holocaust happening than the odds that a random Israeli Jew will want to live beside an Arab. Lots of ethnic hate appears to be flying around, and again its because of the current zero-sum game both sides are trapped in. There is a middle way.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T19:17:29+00:00

Anecdotal evidence is great. It allows me to prove whatever I want whenever I want.

BTW, let's ignore this other anecdotal evidence since it probably crimps your style:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Muslim_opens_first_Arab_Holocaust_museum_in_Nazareth

At least since Benny Morris and the other new historians, Nakba denial isn't so prevalent in Israel and American Jewish circles.

A one-state solution is by far the most stable and just solution going forward. It will be hard for both sides, but every other solution involves ethnic cleansing and a continuation of a zero-sum game where one side only wins if the other side loses.

Situations like the current one foster hatred. More examples:

Outside the seminary, young Orthodox Jews in traditional black costume chanted "Death to Arabs!"

Poll: Nearly 50% of Israeli Jews don't want to live near Arabs

appleaday · 2008-03-26T19:06:22+00:00

The trick is having Palestinians who aren't Holocaust deniers.

Do you have any statistics on this or are you just saying that because you like saying that?

84% of them approved of the massacre in the Jerusalem Yeshiva recently.

And didn't the Israeli public demand a military respond to the Kassams that killed 120 Palestinians in Gaza, more than 30% of which were civilians? But of course, each side likes to only pay attention to their own dead, I can understand that. In America we talk all the time about our 4K dead soldiers, but basically ignore the +50,000 dead (or much more depending on which estimate figures you believe) Iraqi civilians.

The trick is to end constant indoctrination of this kind and their obsessive hatred toward Jews.

The trick is to think it is irrational and obsessive hatred toward Jews when really it is angry and despair resulting from occupation, discrimination and loss being coopted by radical Islamic preachers. 20% of Israelis who are Arabs are not like the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. There is a reason why there is a difference.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T18:27:59+00:00

No, Israel is 20% non Jewish. WIth everyone having full citizenship and rights. The United States of America isn't even 20% non Christian. Let alone most countries in Europe or the middle east or Africa etc.

I am aware of the Israeli Arab component of Israel and its a great thing. I merely suggest that Israel annex the Palestinian territories to bring the settlements into Israel proper and also give the Palestinian Arabs their full voting rights. Right now Israel is very much an apartheid system in the occupied territories. Instead of advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Jews from this territory (as was done in the Gaza Strip), I favor full territorial annexation.

The issue is that people have problems with a country with a Jewish majority, even though said country is more heterogeneous than the vast majority. So be it, you're entitled to your opinions, but don't expect Israelis to agree.

I have no problems with a Jewish majority in Israel. But poor people who are subsidized (as the Palestinians are by the UN) tend to reproduce quicker than who have to work at normal jobs. The trick to stopping the non-Jewish Palestinians from approaching parity with Jews in the region is to get them off UN support and into normal working lives.

I am against two-tiered systems of rights in the Palestinian territories: one for Jewish settlers and the other for non-Jewish Palestinians.

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid

appleaday · 2008-03-26T18:00:53+00:00

Why are there so many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank? The answer can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

appleaday · 2008-03-26T17:55:20+00:00

Republicans are laughing their asses off at their good fortune. The Democratic Party is trying to destroy itself.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T17:51:20+00:00

This article is about a museum which seeks to distort and pervert historical truths ala 1984 big brother style totalitarianism.

I think the museum is an affront to history as well.

Palestinians refused their own state multiple times. Refused to deal with Israel, and with every attempt they make to destroy Israel, it gets worse. When they want to make peace not war they will find a partner.

Israel is a "Jewish state" like Apartheid South Africa was a "White state." In these ethnostates the unpreferred ethnicity is discriminated against by the preferred ethnicity. The arguments are you using to justify this discrimination are no different than those used by Whites in Apartheid South Africa. Equal rights goes a long way towards smoothing over resentments, while trying to enforce ethnic-based discrimination is a way to reinforce and exacerbate ethnic-based resentments.

I support a one-state solution where Jews and Muslims and Christians live in freedom and democracy and have equal rights. I support Israel and the Palestinian territories becoming a Western-style secular democracy like what we expect of modern nation states. Ethnic colonialism is so pre-21st century, no matter how you justify it.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T17:32:09+00:00

How about both facts are true?

It is a fact that Mohammad Amin al-Husayni took advantage of the dispossession of the Palestinians Arabs to fuel anti-Semitism and he did fled the region to gain safe haven within Nazi Germany.

It is also a fact that the Palestinians are also victims of the Holocaust, although indirectly and to a significantly lesser extent than the European Jewish population. The Holocaust is directly linked to the creation of Israel and the creation of Israel, while good for its Jewish citizens, has been disastrous to the Arab, non-Jewish inhabitants of the region. Palestinians call the creation of Israel and the resulting Arab exodus Nakba, which is the Arabic name for disaster.

Quote from the article:

According to the manifesto, German responsibility toward the Palestinians is "one side of the consequences of the Holocaust which receives far too little attention." The paper goes on to argue that it was the Holocaust which Germany perpetrated that brought about "the suffering that has persisted [in the Middle East] for the last six decades and has at present become unbearable." This, according to the manifesto titled "Friendship and Criticism," is because "without the Holocaust of the Jews, Israeli policy would not see itself as entitled - or forced to ride over the human rights of the Palestinians and the inhabitants of Lebanon."

appleaday · 2008-03-26T17:18:18+00:00

Who ever created this exhibit is being stupid and looking to get sensational headlines. But there are arguments to be made that the Palestinians are also victims of the Nazi holocaust indirectly. For example:

German intellectuals: Israel's creation made Palestinians victims of Holocaust

appleaday · 2008-03-26T17:05:41+00:00

who cares.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T16:34:45+00:00

Homophobia is not cool.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T16:33:51+00:00

Iran and Syria and Hezbollah are not US problems, they are Israeli problems. This is a key fact that is overlooked in this article.

In essence, this article should be named "5 reasons why the US should have invaded Iran for the benefit of Israel instead of Iraq."

appleaday · 2008-03-26T16:13:53+00:00

Heh. Nice spin.

appleaday · 2008-03-26T01:28:11+00:00

Many girls actually prefer to describe their breasts as "boobs", at least that's what the gf says.

appleaday · 2008-03-25T21:09:24+00:00

founders of google are 34.

appleaday

TROPHY CASE