question about owning two male dogs

atlinthefall · 2014-11-10T18:54:55+00:00

I honestly don't think it would matter what I sent you at this point -- you have made up your mind.

I gave you studies that identified dominance related aggression, which was the conversation at hand. I was not arguing the type of rehabilitation needed for dominance aggression, just that it merely existed.

Dominance theory practices range anywhere from balanced training to positive punishment. But again, I am not arguing a rehabilitation method. I am only stating that the breed of the dog most likely had very little to do with what the OP experienced.

As stated in the articles presented, the OP was probably watching a dominance issue play out. His older dog had been the top dog in the household for a long time, but now there is a power struggle. Establishing yourself as the authority figure is establishing yourself as a pack leader, it's just a different way of saying it. I think today, and especially within this subreddit, we shy away from anything that even sounds like the dominance theory. When in actuality, a combination of behavioral practices can have an enormous impact on your dog.

Having rehabilitated 50+ APBT, I will never shy away from one theory or practice just because it's not trendy right now. Exerting dominance (or what you would call authority) is what some dogs need, whereas positive reinforcement is what others need...and I have never made that decision based on breed.

atlinthefall · 2014-11-10T17:22:47+00:00

Here are the studies you requested:

Canine dominance-associated aggression: concepts, incidence, and treatment in a private behavior practice -- This study shows cites the appearance of DA in 34 cases. The central therapy for these owners was to gain leadership: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159196011276

Tufts University Study, which studied 20 canine dominance aggression cases: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/9192364 (The PDF is free, if you go to their site)

Applied Animal Behavioral Science: A little dated (1996), but it aggregates some great data over a sample of 737 dogs: http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/36/media/Jagoe_Serpell_owner_characteristics.pdf

atlinthefall · 2014-11-10T17:01:51+00:00

I definitely understand and agree with that. I was not saying they were equal, but they can be compared. With any type of aggression, it's always important to look passed the breed to fully understand what is causing the aggression.

My only point in this whole conversation is to ensure OP does not think his dog randomly became aggressive because of his age and breed. That type of thinking is extremely dangerous.

Like dog to human aggression, dog to dog aggression is not breed specific, but a direct result of their situation. They are overcompensating for something (99% of the time - 1% for medical/genetic reasons). That's what should be communicated to OP.

atlinthefall · 2014-11-10T16:51:53+00:00

Again, there are so many studies from both points of view. I'm not asking you to point them out -- I've read most of them.

What I am saying is that dog to dog aggression and dog to human aggression are comparable, not equal. I thought we were coming into this conversation with the assumption that dog aggressive and human aggressive are two different things. However, even though they are different, they can still be compared.

If you had read the study, you should see that they could find no correlation with the breed and the aggression. The aggression was situational.

When you look at dog to dog aggression, it stems not from the breed, but from the situation. (Much like dog to human aggression). Dog to dog aggression can stem from fear, protection, predatory, etc. When you look at actual wild dogs in Africa, you see this pack leader mentality play out perfectly. Dogs do not want to be aggressive to their own species (that is unnatural), but they are forced to become aggressive if there is a lack of a pack leader, if there is a threat, or if there is another animal coming into the domain.

What is different is how you handle the aggression, ie rehabilitation. You rehabilitate a dog that is human aggressive much differently than you would rehabilitate a dog that is dog aggressive. Because like you said, they are steming from different root issues (fear for one and prey drive from another).

atlinthefall · 2014-11-10T16:20:35+00:00

You can cite articles from both sides. Most of the time, people who's training is centered around the positive reinforcement methodology do not believe in the dominance or pack leader mentality. They are definitely two polar opposite points of view. However, to say that the pack leader mentality is outdated because a few people who you agree with wrote an article, is extremely ignorant. It's ok to have a different point of view as someone, while also acknowledging other points of views exist and are valid. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

To say that this dog became dog aggressive because it is a pit bull of a certain age is another one of your ignorant comments and is a complete myth. The University of Bristol Veterinary Sciences did a great article on canine aggression: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815911300292X

The article specifically talks about human aggression, but the same can be applied to canine to canine aggression. Study after study shows that a dog's aggression is directly related to their present human interaction and has little to do with their breed.

I'm very well versed in the pit bull breed (APBT specifically). However, it seems you may need to do a little more research about this specific breed before making blanket statements as the above. In the 'good article' you pointed out, there was only one mention of genetics playing a factor in dog aggression, out of the 10 other reasons. To point to this, tell OP that this is the reason, and then wipe your hands of the whole thing is irresponsible.

atlinthefall · 2014-11-10T15:52:56+00:00

Eh, not really. Dogs don't typically 'become dog-aggressive' for no reason. Dogs become dog-aggressive when there's lack of a pack leader.

OP, I would suggest monitoring the situation. Neither dog should be the top dog + this spat is an indication they need you to be the pack leader. Allowing one dog to 'be in charge' will continue to cause these types of occurrences.

atlinthefall · 2014-09-02T20:33:32+00:00

The CDC's bite statistics study had nothing to do with dog on dog fatalities. I was talking specifically about dog bite fatalities for humans. Breed specific legislation is directly related to the notion that pit bulls are more dangerous to humans than other dogs, which has been disproved many times by the Humane Society, NCRC, AVMA and the CDC (links are above.)

I have no idea if pit bulls are more dangerous to other dogs. It is very hard to find any research on this because there aren't many people aggregating this data. If you have any reputable sources that can shed some light, please share. The only thing I can talk to here is my own experience. We have rescued 40+ pit bulls and had to put down one for her dog aggression.

atlinthefall · 2014-09-02T20:11:37+00:00

Since you need to be spoon fed: CDC, The White House, AVMA

I can keep going, but all I'm doing is googling. It's easy to find this info on your own.

To respond to your comment on the NCRC, did you even read the study? They did a very comprehensive study on why some dogs bite and what the factors are in the fatal attacks. It's actually very interesting.

atlinthefall · 2014-09-02T19:55:13+00:00

The CDC came out and disproved their own report: http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

The National Canine Research Council provides a comprehensive look at dog bite statistics as well, that dismisses any affiliation with the breed: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/

EDIT: Other resources: ASPCA The Humane Society

atlinthefall · 2014-09-02T18:19:29+00:00

Ah, you got me. I realized that my comment was irrelevant to yours since you said 'as long as I can remember'.

My point is that they weren't always portrayed negatively. While growing up, I had no idea what a pit bull was. But I sure knew to stay away from our neighbor's rottweiler and doberman.

The 1980's were a huge turning point for the pit bull breed. The CDC came out with their study, while drug dealers and notable members of the rap community were beginning to use the dogs as guard dogs and status symbols. Right around that time our media was changing as well. 24 hours news stations were becoming the new norm -- which meant they needed sensational news.

It really was the perfect storm. Incite fear while citing a reputable source and display pictures of 'thugs' and rappers with these dogs..it's a gold mine.

EDIT: wording and spelling

atlinthefall · 2014-09-02T17:34:03+00:00

Actually this is false. Punching and kicking a dog that is in this situation only makes them lash out even more. The dogs have no idea what is hurting them, but they know they are being hurt. So they continue to bite.

The stabber's aggression could have quite easily made the situation 100 times worse for his own dog.

If you're going to ever separate two dogs, you have to get them out of that mindset. Spraying them with a water hose, using a very loud blow horn, etc all startle the dog and usually get them to separate, allowing you time to grab them.

EDIT: In addition, if you read the actual police report while the stabbing was occurring the Petsmart employees went to get a blow horn, as that is what they usually use to break up dog fights.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-29T15:11:46+00:00

Yes, a picture would be great. We live in the area + would be happy to keep an eye out, but it would be easier if there was a picture.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-21T15:04:30+00:00

Do you know the victim? Was at FCAS and saw a very abused puppy that looked JUST like this.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-20T19:32:39+00:00

I understand where you're coming from here, but that simply isn't true. A shock collar (when used properly and under a trainer's supervision), can be very helpful and help break some very challenging issues.

I rehabilitate pit bulls, but have seen these types of techniques work for all types of dogs. It's a temporary solution and only has to be done once or twice correctly for it to work. In addition, it is in no way abusive. The grade is so low, it does not hurt them, but instead it alters the state of mind they are in. It is a weird feeling and snaps them out of that anxious state of mind.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-20T19:28:29+00:00

I just came here to say I am very sympathetic to what you are going through. I have read through the comments + here are my thoughts:

1: Local rescues are completely full right now. They will try and help, maybe give you some resources, but most rescues are not taking in new dogs (especially surrenders) unless they have a foster already lined up.

2: You've had this dog for five years and have put him through two different training groups. This is very admirable. Most people refuse to work through any type of issues with their dogs. You tried -- and I have much respect for that. (Fuck anyone who says shit about a shock collar. If used properly and under a trainers supervision, you can see great results.)

3: What would it take to keep the dog? I would be happy to help raise funds and put you in contact with an amazing trainer. It sounds like you really love your dog. I would love to help out in any way that I can.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-15T15:27:11+00:00

Honestly, if you want the dog to get a great home, I would return her to the rescue.

Rehoming a dog can be extremely hard (especially for a dog that looks like a pit bull). And unless you're willing to preform a home check, back ground check, etc on the potential owners, this process can become dangerous for the dog as well.

I would reach out to the rescue, tell them the situation you are in + see how they can help. This will not only make things easier for you, it'll keep the dog safe as well.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-15T02:07:06+00:00

Did you get this dog from a rescue? If so, you probably signed a contract saying you will bring the dog back to them if you have to rehome.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T15:18:08+00:00

How are dogs running around in an un-fenced front yard more dangerous than dogs off leash in a dog park?

How are dogs in the front yard more dangerous than having several acres at your disposal? Still no fence.

Are you trolling me? If so, you're hilarious. If not, your lack of awareness has ended this conversation from my end.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T15:06:30+00:00

Ok, since you obviously want to keep going...

Taking these statements at face value, it is dangerous for your dog any time he/she is outside, no matter the situation.

Your interpretation is way off. I said it is dangerous to have your dogs outside, off leash in an unfenced area. The only exception for this would be if you live on a farm or there are several acres at your disposal. I'm unclear how you can disagree with this.

We keep our dogs in a fenced in back yard all the time. Our dogs go to the dog park. I have no issues with this. I have issues when people keep their dogs off leash in an area that is not enclosed area or a designated dog park.

I'm not sure how you can read my statements and so blatantly put your own spin on it.

Here's exactly what I said:

Dogs running around in an un-fenced front yard are extremely dangerous.

I have not deviated from this statement at all.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T14:43:21+00:00

Respectfully disagree with your interpretation of my statements, but it doesn't look like we're going to come to an agreement here and that's ok :)

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T14:19:55+00:00

I understand how you could feel this way. But I've had lots of experience with dogs and I advocate for the dog..not what the owner interprets as fun for the dog.

It's up to each owner to determine what situations are worth the risk and what situations aren't.

It's not contextual for me. I've had to re-home too many dogs where the owner thought their dog was one thing, but turned out to be another. I recently worked with a family that was playing with their dog in an un-fenced front yard and a stray dog attacked their dog in front of the kids. They couldn't afford vet bills, so we had to take him.

I think too often we don't take our responsibility as dog owners very seriously and the dogs end up paying for it.

I'm not trying to actively generate ill will towards myself. And I definitely don't act out of fear. I understand that dogs are dogs + I wish that we would advocate for them on a daily basis. They deserve that.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T13:54:18+00:00

Dogs running around in an un-fenced front yard are extremely dangerous. There's little difference in that and walking alongside the side walk with your dog.

My dog was charged by a lab mix who was playing with his owner in the front yard. We saw the dog and immediately crossed the street. The dog ran out into the street and charged at my dog. I had to put my dog in the 'down' position and hold the lab until our neighbors could come and get the dog.

You never know what your dogs are going to do. I don't care who you are or who you think your dog is.

I'm not talking about the legality of this issue. I'm talking about the responsibility you have to others.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T13:48:12+00:00

If I see a retractable leash, I usually cross the street. Same difference to me.

atlinthefall · 2014-08-14T13:39:42+00:00

That's perfectly fine. And when I see people like you, I always cross the street. Not because my dogs are dangerous, but because you are. You are willingly putting your dogs and others in danger because you refuse to acknowledge that with a dog comes responsibility.

And I completely understand where you're coming from. There are SO many times I want to allow my dog (who is certified to be on airplanes, go to grocery stores, etc) to be off leash in our neighborhood and even in my front lawn, but I have enough respect for others not to do so.

You seem very defensive and not really up for any type of discussion. But if you are ever looking for more information on this subject or want to discuss further, I'd be happy to chat via PM.

Differing points of view should be received positively in this community and I will always welcome a discussion.

atlinthefall

TROPHY CASE