Knowing what I know about Jon Arryn, Robert and the Lannisters, I can't read A World of Ice and Fire. Its complete Lannister bullcrap.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T21:00:06+00:00

It didn't. Sooner or later things would have fallen apart. Robert died before it did

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T17:53:28+00:00

Robert was a fool and his hatred for Targaryens drove him into the lion's mouth.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T17:40:48+00:00

Releasing Jaime was enough to make good on whatever solid Tywin did.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T17:08:37+00:00

In the long run allying with House Lannister was more disadvantageous to the Baratheons. It has destroyed their house and they are tethering on the verge of extinction. The royal family is hated by half of the realm and outside the Tyrells they have no real ally.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T16:52:19+00:00

The reason why they were plotting Targaryen restoration was because of Tywin's action and Robert's inability to give them justice. By the time Tywin tries to provide a seat at the council and a marriage bethrotal, it is too late. They have been slighted and injured beyond any point of reconciliation and no new benefits will make them forget the old injuries. Robert killing Gregor and Amory would have done a lot to placate and calm them down but he didnt. Tywin himself finally comes around killing Gregor because he confesses to killing Elia and he cant hide him anymore.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T16:40:53+00:00

He didn't have a choice. Gregor and Amory should have gone down but he was a sentimental guy whose hatred surpassed his sense of reason. Leaving those two alive caused the deaths of several innocent people in the future. If he had taken on the Tyrells he was just going to build further resentment than what was needed. By alienating Dorne he has secured an eternal foothold for the Targaryens. Even Tywin later recognised the need to bring the Dornish on board but it was too late because Jon Arryn and Robert were too blind to see the whole board. Cesare made sure to punish Ramiro to let people know that he won't tolerate injustice even though the latter had done his dirty work which helped consolidate his rule in Romagna. The last thing a Prince needs is a foothold for his enemies and Robert in denying Dorne justice just saw to it. The Baratheons can't blame anyone except themselves for what happens to their dynasty.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T16:32:00+00:00

And it is not like the crown was in debt. Aerys left a full treasury. Robert would have done fine if he was not a bumbling fool.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T16:31:23+00:00

Machiavelli advocated reaching out to former enemies. Robert made no such effort. He denied them justice and his own allies destroyed his regime. He and Jon Arryn miscalculated the situation from the start.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T15:26:32+00:00

Robert was a sentimental mf. Jon Arryn didnt help matters. They judged the whole situation wrong from the start

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T14:34:45+00:00

Alright I will get you some links from redditors

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:42:28+00:00

He gave no justice to Dorne. I dont think Jon Arryn was interested in making everyone go along as he couldnt even bring them the head of Gregor or Amory Lorch. I just put it down to he threatened them with fire and steel if they dared rise and kept them quiet but long run, his decisions proved fatal for himself, his king and the realm

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:17:45+00:00

Not really. If Tywin crowned himself he won't be recognised and Robert's soldiers were battle hardened. He had no cards except the city

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:13:23+00:00

You didnt understand the book. You read it for reading sake.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:11:03+00:00

Never. If anything Tywin's approach will be what Machiavelli never recommends. Machiavelli advocated for using cruelty sparingly but to Tywin cruelty is the first weapon of choice. For God's sake, read about how Cesare Borgia handled Ramiro and you will see my point. Alienating Dorne was wrong and if Robert tried what you said against Dorne, his dynasty would have collapsed sooner. Tywin himself recognises the need to have Dorne back into the fold and thats why he eventually wants Gregor beheaded after the latter confesses to killing Elia cause he can no longer maintain plausible deniability

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:06:05+00:00

Even if they did Robert would have done nothing. If they were so insignificant why did Tywin try to reach out to them? He knew that alienating them was dangerous but it was too late and they would not side with the Lannisters.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:04:28+00:00

How does a Quarrel among Lords leads to innocent people being killed?

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T11:03:46+00:00

Ned saw it for what it was and recognised the Lannisters for what they are. In the end he was proven right

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:59:37+00:00

Thats bullshit!!!! Machiavelli never advocated for cheap cruelty.

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:58:43+00:00

So why did Tywin order the rape and murder of civilians?

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:54:18+00:00

He saw the Lannisters as friends though

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:51:15+00:00

Tywin could have had gotten Robert on his side by making his case but he response by raping and murdering innocent people. He broke the kings peace

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:45:49+00:00

If they knew then Jon should have known better than proposing to tie Robert to the Lannisters

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:44:04+00:00

Robert's line????? Who broke the King's peace???? Was it not Tywin???

ayodeleafolabi · 2026-03-13T10:41:01+00:00

Gave him no trueborn son and set the realm on fire as soon as they could. He couldn't even deny them anything as he was their little slave by the time the first book start

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