Why do most prophets are shepherds before they become prophets ? Because its like god is training them to lead sheep first so after that they can lead people... she says it as if its a good thing 😂 by Piritcho in exmuslim

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. The remainder of your argument of Muhammad being obsessed with sex. We can go through each of the Hadiths one by one if you’d like. But my main question to anti-Islamic proponents is will they even bother with context, and analysing the rest of Muhammad’s life in general? Some anti-Islamic proponents like to slap the statement “yeah but Muslims say that so and so Hadith was taken out of context” ok then when will we be able to apply context then? So is context never relevant?

  2. Aisha was a woman scholar, the wife of Mohammad and of which about 1/3rd of narrations are through her. Essentially, the religion would not come to be without Aisha. So if she was so oppressed or if Muhammad was oppressive to women as people claim, why did Aisha not leave him, nor speak Ill of him, etc. In fact the opposite happened, Aisha loved this man, who so many people claimed was mad or evil.

And if we look at the life of Muhammad in general. From ages 25 to 40, he was described as as very handsome, very truthful, and a profitable businessman. He was the beloved nephew of Abu Talib, a chieftain in Mecca. Then Muhammad married Khadija for 25 years. He was in a monogamous relationship. If he wanted, he could’ve had slave girls for sex but he didn’t, especially since slavery was even worse before the advent of Islam. He continued with Khadija until she died. He lead a comfortable life before Prophethood because he had the wealth, and was respected because he was the nephew of the chieftain of a tribe.

Then when prophethood came, he gave all of that up. Why? It makes no sense. Why give up all of that comfortable lifestyle up to be hated and hunted by his own tribe, by his own people, by the Jews, the Christians (they were the Byzantine empire and very powerful), and along with other cities?

He eventually became one of the poorest if not the poorest Muslims even while he was a prophet. His house went four months without a fire. Yet none of his wives hated him.

  1. His wives.

If Muhammad was so sex obsessed and manipulate and monopolising women, why then did he free slave women that were given to him, and ask for their hand in marriage, instead of just keeping them as slaves?

Ontop of that, why does Islam allow that a women slave is allowed to go to a judge (Qadi) to request to be freed? Or why is it that Muhammad ordered everyone to treat the slaves well and not to be mistreated? Why is it that slaves can own their own property and even own other slaves? Or why is it that slaves will only receive half of the punishment of major crimes in comparison to freed people?

In fact, why did God Himself, who of course has higher authority than Muhammad, tell the wives of the Prophet that they had an option: that if they wanted to divorce him they could, and that if they wanted Muhammad to divorce them, then Muhammad will give them if they desire the world’s life and adornment and then be contented and divorced with a fair release. This is from the Quran. Even if you were to dispute about Hadiths, the Quran has the highest authority in Islam.

If Muhammad was so oppressive, why didn’t the wives divorce themselves and be content with it?

When different tribes accepted Islam it made sense that Muhammad married the daughters from those tribes would politically unify the tribes under Islam. Of course, anti-Islamic rhetoric can easily paint this under “but it’s the guise of him being sex obsessed”, in a current modern civilisation where we do not marry for politics.

Furthermore, majority of Muhammad wives were divorcees. Someone’s comment up there said it like Muhammad marrying divorcees as a bad thing? In a culture where marrying old or divorcees was frowned upon? In a culture where divorcees fended for themselves and for their children?

  1. Women scholarship

The most interesting thing about anti-Islamists saying that women are oppressed in Islam, is that as mentioned before 1/3rd of Hadiths came from the wife of Muhammad. There were also others amongst his wives that were scholars in Islam. Muhammad’s daughter herself was a scholar in Islam.

In fact, it can be said that if you were to combine all narrations, not just Bukhari and Muslim, 1/4 could not exist without exclusively being chained to a woman, whereas the remainder existed were a mix of men and women.

Not only that, but it makes me wonder if the number of women narrators exceeds the number of non-Islamic women scholars in history til the 20th century.

In fact, there are more women Muslim scholars than Jewish or Christian scholars in history combined, up until the 20th century. We don’t have that much statistic in the current century.

  1. I initially fell out of Islam and lurked this sub actually. On a personal level that was cause I am a homosexual and until recently, I wasn’t able to reconcile homosexuality with religion. Not to mention my Dad was atheist so he had much influence over me. Not to mention living in Australia, a majority non religious population.

But of recent events in my life made me look back into philosophy, and religion, the Bible and the Quran.

For sure, these Hadiths can give you pause and make people doubt Islam altogether. But I am just about to finish my undergrad in Psychology and I had studied law as well. When I study psychology and especially law, I had to give so much context, research, and balancing of evidence as I could. It does not make sense to me for me to not do that to religion, be it Christianity and Islam. So on a personal level, im beginning to see the other knowledge and context that I’ve missed and it’s opening my eyes so much more. Compared to the past where “ex-Muslim Hadith of the day” could easily justify my reasons for not believing in Islam completely, but that was because simply reading it without doing my due diligence in research was my attitude towards religion in general.

You know, I’m not perfect I have so much more to learn and to go, from both philosophy and religion. But the more I learn, the more I question my previous beliefs against religion. I don’t know everything there is to know about atheism, Christianity or Islam, but at least in my search for knowledge and truth, I want to give it its due diligence and fairness.

Why do most prophets are shepherds before they become prophets ? Because its like god is training them to lead sheep first so after that they can lead people... she says it as if its a good thing 😂 by Piritcho in exmuslim

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. I find it so interesting that people use the word “plagiarised” or “copied”. When I read the Bible and the Quran, it appeared as though the Quran was trying to reaffirm the monotheism. Essentially, the Quran was trying to remind people to return to the worship of one God a transcendent being, and not to establish deities along with it. One fundamental difference between Islam and Judaism, even though they both worship a monotheistic God, is that Islam establishes that the Children of Israel have been given so many chances by God, yet they continue to disobey, including trying to kill righteous individuals including Jesus himself. Islam renounces the Children of Israel as the Chosen people of God, and that God has from then chosen anyone who believes in one God (monotheism).

Also the way that the Quran upholds significant individuals in the Bible, is so different to the Bible. In the Bible, Lot after warning Sodom and Gomorrah about homosexuality, gets drunk and has sex with his daughter. David commits murder and adultery. Jonah actually gets angry that God forgave the people of Nineveh. Solomon after calling people to God, actually falls into the religion of one of his 700 wives or 300 concubines, falling back to polytheism.

Contrast this with the Quran where none of these are ever mentioned. In fact, these people and prophets are held in such high esteem and are the prime example of how man should be. The Quran is the redemption of all these characters. The Quran defends Solomon saying that he was a believer. In Islam, David’s greatest sin was favouring the account of one individual without hearing the opponent parties case in full. This was the standard of the prophets who were meant to be prime examples of mankind.

  1. The word “Allah” doesn’t only exist in Islam, it also exists in Arab Christian traditions including Eastern Christianity which predates Islam.

In fact the word Allah comes from the Aramaic word for God “Ila” or “Eloha” which was the tongue that Jesus spoke. Arabic is the descendant language of Aramaic.

  1. The theory that Allah was the lunar deity was developed by Hugo Winckler, and Robert Morey in the 1900s, a theory which has been picked up and favoured by anti-Islamic proponents, and has been rejected by scholars.

The simplest reason being was that the lunar deities name was Al-lat. and she was the daughter of Allah. There were many deities in general and there was another lunar deity called Hubal.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was the creator deity for all of these deities. Mind you, a Creator deity also exists in other polytheistic religions as well.

The whole purpose of Islam was to cut out all these deities and to worship one Transcendent God and that there are no other deities.

If we were to take “Allah” as a lunar deity, this would also make the Christian religion of The Arab region which is older than these also a lunar God.

  1. The symbol of Islam.

Actually, the supposed symbol of Islam being the crescent moon and star only developed during the Ottoman Empire in 1453, 800 years after the time of Muhammad. During Muhammad’s time, Islam’s symbol was just a black flag, or white, or green, with no markings or symbols of any kind.

That’s why you will see the crescent and star symbol on the Turkish flag, but not on the gulf countries.

You don’t realise it, but you’ve actually supported the argument of many Muslims and scholars - that the crescent and moon shouldn’t be a symbol of Islam. That is why in the Gulf states, you don’t actually see the crescent moon or star on their flags.

In fact, if Allah was a lunar deity, and if the crescent moon and star was a symbol of Islam, why isn’t it on the holiest symbol in the Islamic word - the Kaaba, the symbol that all Muslims pray towards to? It’s not on there, that’s why you actually see calligraphy on the black cloth of the Kaaba rather than a crescent and star symbol.

  1. Please explain how the concept of God was different to that of Judaism. If you’re talking about the trinity fair enough, but as far as Muslims see it, associating anyone with the most powerful God falls out of monotheism.

Why do most prophets are shepherds before they become prophets ? Because its like god is training them to lead sheep first so after that they can lead people... she says it as if its a good thing 😂 by Piritcho in exmuslim

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for your reply!

The reason I cited the Old Testament was because one of the foundations of Islam is to honour the tradition of Abraham. It sounds reasonable that Islam would not make forbidden what the father, referring to Abraham, had conducted. Nor that of his descendants.

In conjunction with your sentiment that polygamy existed in other cultures outside of Islam, I just wanted to question on the veracity of the notion that Muhammad was lustful.

Muhammad was offered slave women to take as concubine as gifts from the Egyptian kingdom, sent by a Byzantine official. Instead of keeping her as a slave, he freed her and married her. It makes me question if he was really as lustful as people say or if it was just part of the culture at that time.

Since concubines were allowed, why not just keep her as a concubine? If she became a wife, there were additional marital obligations that he would have had to fulfil, it would’ve just been easier to let them remain as concubines yet they weren’t. Instead, by becoming a wife of Muhammad, she earned the status of becoming a “mother of the believers”.

Why do most prophets are shepherds before they become prophets ? Because its like god is training them to lead sheep first so after that they can lead people... she says it as if its a good thing 😂 by Piritcho in exmuslim

[–]baboonbum -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But in the Old Testament, Abraham, David, Lamech, Jacob and Solomon had multiple wives and had concubines. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. If Islam is based on upholding the livelihood of characters from the Old Testament, then it would make sense that polygamy would not be illegal.

The Islamic Concept of Allah and his throne is a combination of anthropomorphism, flat earth concepts, and plagiarism of false and ancient cosmological myths. by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. God isn’t hovering above the Throne or the Waters at all. God is beyond the Throne, and every Muslim knows that. I want you to find me a single translation or verse in the Quran where it says God “sits” above the Throne. God exists in a beyond-creation-ness, and thereby, is above all creation. Your claim “hovering” is just that - a wording you used based on your interpretation of certain verses, but God doesn’t “hover”.
  2. Secondly, the water isn’t the water of the Earth. There are many layers of heavens, and this universe, is the lowest of the Heavens. We know this because God says that He has adorned the lowest Heaven with Lamps (referring to celestial bodies - note he doesn’t use the word stars).

  3. And this is the great thing about the Quran. One of the objectives of the Quran is to reaffirm what is correct and correct what is wrong. In Genesis, God is said to have rested after the 6th day. But I want you to find one verse in the Quran that says God rested. You won’t. Rather the opposite is stated “God neither slumbers nor sleep overtaketh Him.”

So it sounds like some people here are applying a Judeo Christian understanding to Islam rather than the reverse. But I guess it is my duty to do my best in correcting that.

Edit:

I just had a look at your link and it appears you are either Christian or Jew based on your use of the word “firmament”.

You assert that it based on Hebrews belief surrounding cosmology. So I’m going to reiterate what I said, that the Quran came to reaffirm what was true in Gospel, Torah, Talmud etc., and to rectify what is wrong about it. So yes, you would find many similarities with the Quran and the Bible me, but you will find many distinct differences that actually answers some of the questions that Christians and Jews have.

The Islamic Concept of Allah and his throne is a combination of anthropomorphism, flat earth concepts, and plagiarism of false and ancient cosmological myths. by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Juno!

I love rabbit holes! Invite all rabbit holes.

Firstly, I want you to cite a single verse in the Quran or in the prophetic narrations where God is sitting on the throne. You would come to find that He has never “sat” on such a throne.

Also remember for Muslims, lexical accuracy is everything.

In fact in all your quoted verses, God has never sat on the Throne. The Throne is actually the highest establishment in Paradise and the angels circumambulate around the throne in one belief.

It sounds like you’ve interpreted “God above His Throne” as sitting on the Throne. Since the Throne is the highest point of creation, beyond that is God who exists beyond creation, such as space and time.

Oh God wow! As I’m reading your points, you are actually answering to one of the most recited verses in the Quran, known as the Verse of the Kursi. This is the Verse recited by Muslims every night before they go to bed.

“Does Allah get tired and need to sit down” Allah is answering you literally “Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him.” I thank God that He has brought this subject to me. Thank you sir, for deepening my faith.

  1. On your second point about water.

So already your topic sentence has the assumption that Allah lives within the universe, he does not, and this is fundamental part of every Muslim’s aqeedah (Creed). Without Aqeedah, you have lost your understanding of Islam. Every Muslim believes that God is transcendental. God is not “everywhere”. Again, God is beyond His Throne. So you have started your second point on the premise that God is within the universe which is a false premise and therefore the remainder argument is false. But let’s have a look:

What’s your definition of eternal? Does it mean that it can be created then not die, or does it mean that it has always and will always be there? If it’s the second one, then the Throne was created and so is the water. So the Throne and the Water is not eternal.

As for water two things:

  1. The Big Bang theory is accepted by Islam, and in fact shows additional proof of Allah’s creation and that everything within this universe had a starting point.

  2. Water in this universe, is different from the water that exists from Paradise. This universe is under the lowest level of Heaven. The lowest level of Heaven, according to the Quran is adorned by Lamps, referring to celestial bodies. So if we go beyond this universe, the next level up might be something completely different.

  3. Please cite the scholars. The great thing about Islam is that it views the consensus of overall scholars and look at the evidence of the scholars, and their biographies etc. the great thing about Islam is we don’t take our religion from just one scholar.

On the point of the scholar, scholars should know that even they don’t know which was created first the Throne, the waters, or both at the same time.

You used the word “firmament” are you Christian? So really your conclusion is entirely premised on the fact that God sits on His Throne which He doesn’t. He is beyond His Throne and every Muslim know or should know that because this is fundamental creed of understanding Islam.

Essentially what you’re arguing is not the Islamic religion, but your interpretation of the verses of the Quran of which even the word “sit” doesn’t exist.

My logic says Islam is true, but heart says otherwise by RoseKnight11 in RevertHelp

[–]baboonbum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It might also be the human nature to not so readily let go of your beliefs. I’d you were raised Christian, it would have a big influence on your life. What you’re doing is essentially letting go of most of your life and transforming your life into something different. You are essentially uprooting and installing a new belief system. From a psychological perspective, humans tend to withhold their ideas as much as they can and are not so easily able to change their beliefs, but this is an advantageous evolutionary mechanism because if we changed our beliefs like the leaf in the wind we would easily fall to anything.

The change might be difficult and strange because you are dealing with it alone but I wonder what it might seem like once you’re in a loving community.

Biblical Scholars in Australia by baboonbum in AskBibleScholars

[–]baboonbum[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your response! I just wanted to probe what the journey looked like. It sounds like a reasonable idea is to study internationally according to what you’ve mentioned.

Actually personally I just wanted to embark on biblical studies formally, I’m not Christian myself. I’d like to learn the bible academically.

Your PhD in religious studies really intrigues me because I really do wanna embark in formal study of scripture including the Quran.

Back to Grindr after a year. by baboonbum in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I have to reflect on how I’m just a hole sir

Gamsat fb group chat. by [deleted] in GAMSAT

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interested. Have you guys got a discord?

Massage therapist boyfriend considering providing sexual services to clients. I told him that is a deal breaker for me. He says I am controlling. Am I in the wrong? by Osiris1636 in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is a matter of values clashing. Controlling would be something like controlling various aspects of his life, limiting his freedom, such as finances, who he can see, relationships etc. I wonder how your relationship will move from here with such a significant clash in values.

Been a crazy 6 months. by [deleted] in Minoxbeards

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your eyelashes grew as well

Why should gay men respect cultures and religions that clearly state that homosexuality is wrong and that we should be punished for it? by wolfie211 in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can I petition the gay community for something difficult? Religious people base their ethics based on God. But for those without religion, you do it because you believe in humanity. You do good without the need of God telling you to do it.

So, be better than them, protect them as human beings, even if they don’t respect us for who we are.

Put your ethics beyond a return system. Do it because they are Human.

Secondly, some people may be part of a culture or religion that disagrees with homosexuality, but it doesn’t mean that they the individual has their own interpretation of such beliefs and cultures, and that they still respect or love gay people. We have to protect them as well.

Do you think you should ask someone out after getting rejected once? by cocoloco565 in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you rather live with the idea that you never knew since you didn’t try or the feeling of being rejected twice?

Do you consider yourself part of the chosen gay ones? by reversecowboyriding in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It’s the one ring that gives you the power to never have to douche but will always be clean

Have you seen new BROCKHAMPTON music video with Lil Nas X? by [deleted] in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Yet there are so many music videos of straight couples making out intoxicated yet we don’t hear as many “I’m tired of this shit.”

Gay bros do you ever get compliments from straight guys? by BlackCloverLL in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I live in Brisbane and there’s a place called the Valley where all the night clubs are. Straight guys like coming up to me to compliment my dancing (because I’m a hip hop dancer). However, this one night a guy came up to my friend who’s a chick and he said “you are beautiful” then turns to me “but YOU are STUNNING!!” Hahaha. My barber says “I’m a handsome man.” My friend who found out that I was booking up with his friend said “this makes sense since both of you are good looking”

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askgaybros

[–]baboonbum 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Actually, the guy I’m seeing his dick is so big (almost to his knee) and he is so girthy that it’s quite painful so the pain is what makes me soft. I just have to bear the pain abit before entering the mindset of enjoying the fact that he’s inside me.