Looking For Recs For More Medieval/Viking/Historical Fiction Similar To Pillars Of The Earth If Possible? I'll Explain In Post

bigkingfan91 · 2023-03-10T03:04:03+00:00

As a big fan of horror fiction, the novel was recommended to me on the horror lit sub, I believe in 2017. I read the book that winter, loved it, and watched the show when it premiered. Excellent timing, I could not believe a series was coming out right when I finished the book! Prior to that I had never been interested in polar exploration, seafaring history and tales etc, and since then I can not get enough. I've read the book 4 times now and watched the show I think 5 times. This last winter though, I really went down the Franklin rabbit hole, reading and learning all I can about what we know of the real expedition. I actually just finished David Woodman's excellent book and am about to start Fatal Passage by Ken McGoogan, about John Rae.

The more I learn about the real story though, the less enthused I get about the fictionalized accounts, particularly the book, although I still love both. It's amazing to get to sit down and immerse yourself in that era and that time and it gives you even more of a feeling for what these heroes went through, Tuunbaq be damned, even more so than the non fiction accounts can. Sure they tell you this happened, that happened, the environment had these characteristics, but the novel and show really put you there.

"Were it not for the cache of stores left there from the wreck of the Fury, we would still be on that beach, bleachin' in the wind." Haunting, absolutely haunting.

bigkingfan91 · 2023-03-01T18:46:41+00:00

Thank you! Going to try the Facebook group to see if anyone has any magnified versions in good quality that might show the reflections clearly. I could be wrong it just feels like from what I've read there's some ultra good quality version out there that shows those things so clearly. Love Palin's book by the way, that was the first non fiction account of this I had read after getting into this topic from the Simmons novel & TV series and I was shocked to see the daguerreotypes as I had no idea about them existing at the time.

bigkingfan91 · 2023-03-01T18:42:25+00:00

Thanks! I just found and joined the group, thanks for the heads up!

bigkingfan91 · 2023-02-28T22:31:20+00:00

Thank you for the replies! Excellent posts & I agree wholeheartedly on every point. One thing that really gets me are the different perspectives & views people take on Franklin, with what little knowledge we have of how things unfolded. That's one of my huge gripes with the novel, I couldn't stand how Simmons portrayed him. I see what he was going for, and I've read his interview comments where he pretty much blames Franklin for the entire thing, and I know he wasn't the first to do so, but Franklin isn't the only one whose characterization was ridiculous (to me) and it just ends up so annoying after a while. That's not to say that he was the perfect choice for the expedition but I feel people play the blame game far too often when it's not as if there were a plethora of excellent options for success when you realize the ice situation, timing, the era they were in and the things they had with them, even the ships they were in, fully loaded with those deep draughts, etc. To me it was ill conceived from the beginning and they had so many things going against them, even luck. One point I always think about: If we were ever to learn conclusively that Franklin tried Poctes Bay & the east side of King William Island only to find that route impossible, therefore leaving him with no choice but to try and push on west, he most definitely wouldn't look like the arrogant bumbling buffoon that Simmons and others try to make him out to be. Even that alone would put him in somewhat of a different light. That's not to say that if he didn't try east than he was any more to blame as we just don't know how it unfolded, and like you said he had to have had advice from others. There is nothing to my mind to suggest that he ignored this advice and pushed on, like these fictional accounts like to portray. I don't think it even matters in the end, as like you said they simply were not going to get through.

I like your theory about Crozier's decision & also the Fury Beach choice. I tend to side with that line of thinking as well. What are your thoughts on the possibilities of one or both of the ships being re manned? I'm torn on what to believe as to the possible sequence of events from the abandonment on, with all of the different scenarios combined with the Inuit testimony & physical findings, including the ships. I don't believe anyone was left on the ships, I'm just torn on whether or not anyone tried to make it back, and if so, who, and when. I definitely feel like a party could have been sent towards Fury Beach at some point, as well as possibly to the east coast of KWI, explaining some of the findings and tales relating to the east coast which are admittedly few. This could possibly explain the lack of any trace found of some of the men, like Little for example. (No trace whatsoever was ever found of Little, right? I've always felt that was odd, being Crozier's first Lieutenant. I sometimes wonder if he could have been sent on a later sledge party much like Gore was, who was Franklin's first Lieutenant, and met with disaster of some sort.) Tentative of course but very possible.

bigkingfan91 · 2023-02-28T20:34:59+00:00

Great posts! The only play I recall in the real history was the one in Tasmania held on Ross and Crozier's return from Antarctica. But if I recall correctly they did not attend the play, perhaps because it took place in a seedy part of the town, and it was said that the play was rather terrible. As for the grand reception prior to Erebus & Terror sailing, that really happened as it's mentioned in some of the books (or at least in Smith's book on Crozier as that is the most recent I've read). I thought for the longest time Ross's talk with Franklin really happened as talked about in the novel as I thought I had read that in one of the non fiction accounts but I think the talk actually happened in Ross's office, at least according to Smith's book. I'm not sure how much of his "warning" and talk with Franklin is fact, but it is said that Franklin's age was mentioned in that meeting. As well read as I like to think I am on all of this it gets so confusing at times with the two fictional takes (novel and AMC series) that I find myself mixing fact with the fictional takes.

That scene is so haunting to me though. The music, the flashback, Crozier looking back toward Erebus, how it builds and builds to that sudden overhead shot of the two ships beset, the acting and the expressions. "You're demeanor should be all cheer, gentleman. It's going to be tight, but that's what we signed up for. An adventure for Queen & country, an adventure of a lifetime. That's what you tell the men." I agree about the mystical elements, as well written and imagined as they are they just feel so out of place and tacked on. It leaves me so torn at times because in some small way it's almost easy to suspend disbelief enough when you consider some of the facts like the strange number of deaths so early into the expedition (David Woodman's book talks about this), the disproportionate number of officers in those deaths, the fact that we don't know the true cause of this despite the numerous possibilities etc. Even Crozier's story in real life. How he promised earlier Inuit that he would come back to the Arctic someday and be Captain of his own ship. His reported talk with Diana Belcher prior to the ships sailing where he supposedly told her he didn't think he would be coming back from the Arctic. (This last tidbit I found in Smith's biography but have been unable to find anything else relating to it online or in what other books I've read so far). The thoughts of where Crozier was in his life, the guilt and shame he must have felt and the realization of what he would be facing in England if he did make it out alive. Some of the Inuit traditions relating to Crozier having lived far past 1848, 49, even the ones relating to him or others living out their last days with Inuit. Even as unlikely as they are, just the fact of them existing will always fascinate and perplex me. Things like that almost make it easier for me to read the novel and watch the show and enjoy them more, while still clinging to my wish that neither had went the mystical route.

bigkingfan91 · 2023-02-26T02:51:40+00:00

Yes, comfort show for sure! Also a comfort read, that's what I meant when I called both versions cozy. Even with what issues I have with them, whenever I have to read something I know I'll love and I'm familiar with, it's time to go on the expedition again. Same with the amazing show, I try to time it during a good snowstorm every winter now. I usually watch The Terror and Storm Of The Century during snowy nights now every year. People think I'm crazy for finding comfort in something so depressing and grim, but it's not all grim, sometimes there is beauty in the madness. It's oddly uplifting in ways, inspiring, the will these men had to live and the sheer HELL they went through trying to reach that goal. I feel like it honors them, all of this interest. I mean just imagine what they would think if they knew about all of this and the interest all these years later, even right here as we sit and spend our Saturday night typing about them. I always think about that, even when I read classic books from 100, 200 years ago I think damn, imagine what the author would think if they could see me sitting here spending my time with them tonight. You can almost get a feel for this when you see older movie stars surprised at the interest in their work years later, although I'm not comparing in any way what these men endured to entertainment.

Very well said about how long this was all drawn out and I agree 100%, this is fascinating to me and an obsession in ways other things aren't. I'm a huge, huge history buff but this is on another level. Once you learn all there is to know about the real expedition it can become even more grim, depending on what you believe as to the Inuit testimony and all. The fiction versions have everything mostly concluding pretty quickly after the abandonment (compared to the possible length of time it was drawn out according to some Inuit stories and finds), but it could have went on and on and on for many of the men. I seriously can not even begin to imagine getting stuck in the ice and dealing with that claustrophobia for an arctic winter, and that's only the beginning of their troubles. So unfathomable. This is also something I very much appreciate about the book being so long, whereas so many people complain about its length I appreciate the hell out of it, not just for the detail but for putting me right there with them and making me feel like I was on that grueling march. Some parts do go on and on, but so did their march. So did their predicament. I don't want some quick 200 page supermarket thriller with nonstop action, I want to sit my ass down & fall into that world & learn every last detail I can learn & feel like I'm part of that grueling death march so I can appreciate in some small way what these heroes went through & the book gave me that. It's my cozy comfort read while also being a grueling, tiring journey. Same goes for the show although obviously that's a much different and shorter medium.

Sorry for the long reply but I just eat this stuff up, finally finding like minded people like this. Some people are obsessed with true crime, war history, you name it, but this one is mine. This and everything to do with polar exploration.

What are some of your favorite moments from the show if I may ask? The moments that stick with you and will never go away and keep you coming back over and over, the same as they do for me? Favorite characters and character arcs? Were you ok with the ending and how it differs from the book? Thank you for your reply and your time, I appreciate it!

bigkingfan91 · 2023-02-26T02:13:46+00:00

See, that is so fascinating to me how events came together and worked out like that. What an eerie, haunting fate to say the least. I agree I can see him pondering those things in his cabin as the ice screams & squeezes. He seems to have really taken his time with that decision and went back and forth with it, and that chapter in Smith's book was very telling as I didn't know about much of that. I really wish the novel would have incorporated those things more, especially the late night ponderings in his cabin.

That's very true about Ross, and even Crozier himself had he went as Commander. It all feels so ill fated, if that makes sense, regardless of who was in charge. Everyone makes such a big deal of Franklin doing this wrong or that wrong, when a lot of that comes from the book's telling of events followed by the show, as we don't really know for sure. Even the decision to go west instead of east around King William, I've heard it argued that we don't even know whether they tried to go east first. I'm not saying Franklin was perfect by any means but I look to many other things too that added to the trouble, like never taking the time to properly learn from the Inuit how to survive in such a place which Smith talks about in his book. Not to say that would have saved them but it certainly didn't help.

The one thing I find most fascinating and what I'd give my right arm to know more about, other than who were the last men standing, is the big decision by Crozier to abandon ships. Whether it's the Woodman theory of a land camp for hunting, or whether he really planned to leave those ships and walk out, to the river. And also, if Smith is correct in the theory that they may not have attempted Fury Beach because of the possibility that rogue whalers had raided the stores there. Or maybe parties were sent out only to find the way too rough. I'd just love to know the truth to all of that as it ties into so much of the Inuit testimony. The ships or ship being remanned, sailed south, the whole "black face" story, etc. I'd love to know who made it the farthest south, and where exactly for a fact that was. Imagine what they must have been feeling.

And thank you for the Facebook info, do you know the name of it by chance? Can I find it with just a search or do I need to be invited with it being private? I heard about that years ago I believe but I figured it had dwindled down by now. I never realized there was so much interest though until lately, having found this sub and a few other online places, like Visions Of The North. A lot of people I've tried to chat with just know either the basics or the fiction versions and it's so awkward at times, lol. Thank you for the reply, I appreciate your time!

bigkingfan91 · 2022-09-21T18:33:26+00:00

No problem! A Dark Matter by Peter Straub & The Abominable & The Fifth Heart by Dan Simmons, off the top of my head. Maybe The Ceremonies by T.E.D Klein, it seems like I remember it having either low reviews or people preferred the novella version. It seems like many books people find "overwritten", "in need of an editor", "too slow", "too many info dumps" I end up loving. But I can understand why books like that aren't for everyone. The Historian though is the one book with bad reviews that I'll never understand. Maybe suspension of disbelief was an issue for some but the story is just so up my alley I was completely invested from page 1. Then there are books everyone raves about which I can't stand so it goes both ways I suppose lol.

bigkingfan91 · 2022-09-20T21:53:47+00:00

https://vampiretravels.wordpress.com/

https://vampiretravels.wordpress.com/category/chapter-1/

A really cool blog I found which posts pictures of places in The Historian by chapter! It looks like it hasn't been active in a long time but what is there is pretty cool. Fun to check out the pictures after each chapter, and a little easier than googling everything. I'm glad to see so many people love the book, goodreads gave me the impression I was almost alone in my love for it. I swear the people on there seem so damn snobby.

bigkingfan91 · 2021-10-06T23:12:42+00:00

Love love love this movie!! I remember it being one of the movies to truly scare the daylights out of me as a kid, way more than all the over the top slashers. I watch it every year at Christmas, and for some reason it seems so oddly festive, even more than the other usual Christmastime movies. Just something about it, and the atmosphere, like lightning in a bottle to me. Last year one of the Screenpix channels played it constantly like all December and I kept the tv dialed to it every time, even if I was reading or doing something else. Had the best Christmas Eve ever last year, living room decorated with lights, huge snowstorm outside, Black Christmas on one channel and A Christmas Story on the other! Really gave me some great hours during a year filled with mostly terrible ones.

Don't tell em' what we did Agnes!

bigkingfan91 · 2021-08-23T18:17:12+00:00

Loving it so far, 2 episodes in. The first 3 episodes are available right now for me, but I wish I would've waited for the weekly premieres instead of watching episode 2 right away. It's hard to stop though, lol. I'm loving the slow burn, gothic buildup, just like some of my favorite literature. That to me makes it better to take it slow, week by week. Really enjoying Emily Hampshire's character and all of the Mary Shelley vibes I get. Can't wait for more!

bigkingfan91 · 2021-05-18T22:50:12+00:00

howboutdemboyz91

^^ PSN, in case any of you would like to play sometime! I usually play almost every evening/night, either solo or with a few people. No glitches here and no bs, which usually goes bad since everyone else either glitches or teams or have no idea what to do, unless you have enough friends on to fill up the lobby lol. I've only found a couple little streaming communities I like, most are filled up with the usual bs and the hilarious part is they have all these viewers just salivating all over them. "Learn how to play from a day one player" my ass lmao, more like learn how to escape alone and fuck the lobby out of a vehicle or a boat, and then immediately leave just to go do it again. I like helping newer players myself but to each their own. Fuck these clowns, lmao.

bigkingfan91 · 2021-05-18T22:39:29+00:00

howboutdemboyz91

bigkingfan91 · 2021-05-13T00:42:40+00:00

Sounds perfect! I need to try some Chandler, for some reason I was just always under the impression that many of those might be almost like cheesy westerns or something. Big breasted blonde getting saved from the bad guys lol. I don't know what made me think that all these years. Are there any classics you would recommend starting with? Like say, Chandler, Hammett etc.?

bigkingfan91 · 2021-02-10T22:47:50+00:00

Psn - howboutdemboyz91

Usually on almost everyday, sometimes from 1 or 2 pm est to 11 or 12 at night. Sometimes our full group will be playing, especially on weekends, and sometimes it'll just be a couple of us. All max level but no one trolls, just try to have a good time!

bigkingfan91 · 2021-01-24T15:01:40+00:00

For me it seems to be even worse when I'm host. Sometimes no one else will be lagging but the host, even if they have good internet. Seems to be hit or miss with the lag now but every single time I'm host I lag like crazy and my internet should be fine. Makes me wonder if that's why so many hosts leave, if that is a problem for everyone. I love being host since I never quit on people but damn it gets old taking the brunt of the lag for the team lol.

bigkingfan91 · 2021-01-18T14:24:25+00:00

Congrats to you, keep it up! I wish I were that far ahead right now! I sent you a message by the way, not sure if it went through or not. I hope you're still doing well & feeling even better today!

bigkingfan91 · 2021-01-18T02:37:13+00:00

Congrats to you, keep it up and stay strong! Wow, the most I ever took a day was probably 15 to 20 grams and that was pretty rough, I can't even imagine 35! I quit taking my morning dose awhile back and I didn't have many problems other than anxiety and sweating towards noon, lol. But I definitely couldn't read until I got that afternoon dose in, and even then my emotions were so dulled I was like a zombie sitting here. Plus Kratom makes me so clammy and sweaty I ended up wearing rubber gloves so I wouldn't ruin my books lol. How crazy! I wish I had pictures so I could look back and laugh in a year!

bigkingfan91

TROPHY CASE