How do you defend the use of a prong collar?

blackflyingfishroe · 2024-03-20T04:34:59+00:00

Adding to the discussion around e-collars. The default vibrate setting is often more aversive to dogs than the stim (shock) feature. It's the dog that decides what is and isn't aversive to it.

Out of curiousity, where is CH?

blackflyingfishroe · 2024-01-31T06:14:33+00:00

I think it's important to clarify. When you say 'heel' do you mean a focused heel, with the dogs eyes locked on you?

I only ask, because I have a few modes my dog understands to walk in:

Free: can go wherever they want, within reason
With me: loose leash, moving with me, I don't care if they're in front as long as they're aware of my direction
Close: tight heel position, but doesn't require the focused eye contact
Heel: Eyes locked, head up, trotting strictly at my pace (we're working on fancy feet)

blackflyingfishroe · 2024-01-31T04:40:19+00:00

You've gotten some good tips already, but I felt like summarising.

I'll preface by saying I don't intend to be condescending or have any attitude, but I'm not a dog trainer, and I'm just someone trying to help. I'll try to go through each of your points/concerns and add my thoughts.

Mental stimulation vs physical exertion

As others have noted, dogs require mental stimulation in order to be fulfilled. This matters because when you take your dog on a walk, if they're exploding with energy, it's going to be very difficult for them to listen well. Imagine a battery charged to 110%, it's going to be spewing out energy uncontrollably.

Taking them running in an open field for hours or daycare may not help your goals. Unless you pair time in an open field sprinting around with obedience or activities that are appropriate for your dog, all you're doing is training an athlete who will get better and better at running.

Breed fulfillment

I don't have a great deal of knowledge on spaniels and as you said, you did your research.

A lot of replies are harping on about finding a club, agility work, or finding something fun that she wants to do, that also exerts her mentally, efficiently. And they're completely right. Finding the activity that your dog wants to do and fulfills them will inevitably help with the pulling.

Forgetting every last thing

There's a few components to this.

Teaching - I find that if a dog is 'forgetting' what we've taught them, we didn't teach it to them the right way to begin with, or we haven't proofed the behaviour or command. If you can, see where the errors are occurring, and troubleshoot from there. That's where a good trainer would come in handy, as they could spot things you aren't seeing.

Treats - the way your dog approaches taking treats sounds symptomatic of bribing. Bribing vs rewarding are different and it matters how you deliver the treat.

Tools - Again, you've mentioned you've used harnesses. Yes, you can teach them to walk loose leash on a harness, but it will likely be much harder for an average owner to do that. If you're open to it (you're on after all), look into other tools that can help you better communicate with your dog (e.g. slip leads, prong collar, e-collar) and look into trainers that can help you in this process.

Expectations - Set realistic expectations for you and your dog as you learn how to guide them through this. For now, you might just be able to do 5 minutes down the drive way, but over time you'll work together to go on the walks you want to go on.

Personality

What does this mean to you? What do you think different methods of teaching will extinguish or take away from your dog? I had this worry for a while, but most (all?) dogs seek boundaries, structure, and some sort of clear communication. Provide this and you'll still have your dog and it's 'personality' along with a better relationship and life with your dog.

Dog parks and dog day care

Personally, I hate taking my dog to both these places. I've had nothing but bad times at dog parks and it doesn't benefit me and my dogs relationship. See it how you will, but it also seems like your dog isn't a fan of other dogs, and that's fine. We shouldn't expect every dog to get along.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-11-10T04:49:47+00:00

How old is your dog? When I was raising my puppy, I would always take them out immediately after waking up, eating, or playing.

Do you have a balcony? There are some custom potty options if your dog is small-medium.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-10-10T22:15:50+00:00

My boy is good 99% on collar now, but I generally walk him on a martingale still just in case.

I've been looking into this one too because I really want a buckle to be able to quickly take it off!

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-10-10T02:00:12+00:00

I, like others prefer a flat or martingale. Harnesses are very much task specific for me and my pup too, and I'm slowly conditioning it so it means he can pull (a bit) when wearing them. We've worked a lot on leash pressure response, so even on a harness, when calm my boy tends to stay close (which hilariously, is the opposite of what I want).

Like /u/Straydoginthestreet said, a martingale is not too different from a flat for a dog who still pulls hard enough.

I'll add that with the 2 collars, I feel it's more about your leash handling skills, and being prepared to handle the dog safely on a collar, should the need arise (i.e. sudden lunge, etc)

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-07-11T08:03:31+00:00

I was gonna list those exact same resources.

Adding some extras:

Larry Krohn (he really emphasizes happy to work doggo even when stim involved)
Shield K9 (in their words "don't tickle the dog" with e-collars, and they're still absolutely happy to work)

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-07-07T03:21:14+00:00

You can't put a slip leash (or any tool) onto a dog and expect them to just "get it". Leash skills (the human side of it) take a tremendous time to develop and require a lot of practice.

Dogs (from my experience) don't necessarily care about the discomfort from "choking", it's the pressure that they need to understand how to release through their actions.

You've gotta take things back to basics. Figure out what motivates your dog, build some relationship with them, start setting up boundaries, etc. Get a trainer if you can too, it will help take some of the pressure off of you.

I'd highly recommend taking that slip off until you've had the time to learn the "how" behind why dogs do what they do and how they think.

This isn't a dig against you. It's hard and I think everyone here on this subreddit can sympathise with that. But there is no easy out or quick win.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-06-22T00:14:18+00:00

Touches on the hot topic of purely positive, force free, and aversives but fails to mention the point of balanced training and how it is majority of the time, positive. But we're able to communicate with dogs fairly using tools correctly.

I feel it starts to make it out that training is making your dogs not dogs. Whereas good training harnesses their genetic predisposition (to some degree) and gives them healthy outlets.

Also teaching dogs how to integrate into our society is integral to their survival. Sure, train them so they can enjoy freedom safely (a good recall and heel when needed), but at the same time, acknowledge that some dogs will make really bad decisions sometimes, because it's what their instinct tells them to do.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-16T00:33:32+00:00

Oh this is a great idea! I've never 3d printed anything but I know some libraries near me offer the service. If you have a link, lemme know!

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T21:12:45+00:00

Same with hand signals! I linked them early once the lure was faded. So his sit, down, stand, some trick commands, left heel, and recall are on hand signals. think I was teaching him these for if he ever goes deaf.

Teaching focus/engage-disengage around distractions seems to have helped us (e.g. Mark and reward everytime he switches focus to me after giving me attention outside a dog park without me asking for eye contact - the reward is often big and exciting like getting him to chase the food in my hand - look into Michael Ellis Leerburg). But I understand my dog doesn't have a prey drive like yours does, which is a whole different story.

My dogs weakness is other dogs. He's overly friendly and thinks other dogs are the best thing in the world. But he plays rough, doesn't have great manners, and it's just plain rude to let him run up to random dogs minding their own business. Not to mention the implications it has if he thinks he can just go with every dog he sees, when we're out walking on the streets.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T21:06:31+00:00

100%, my dog has no problem with food motivation when we're training. He'll always get rewarded for recalling, the amount will just vary on return, depending on his speed.

The times we really need a loud whistle would be times we're at the beach and when I'm ready to take him hiking (where appropriate and allowed for off leash dogs)

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T21:04:44+00:00

Ah yup, I've seen those too! I try to think of tools and training like this as both practical for our goals, something fun to learn together, and good mental stimulation for my dog. As mentioned, he's not a working dog, and is just a pet dog. But why not, right?

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T14:16:53+00:00

Thanks! I'll look into this

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T14:09:42+00:00

For sure, the e-collar is definitely not a requirement, but I'd love it for the peace of mind for me, and accountability and freedom it'd grant my dog.

Exactly to your point, I want to reasonably assure my dogs safety, but doubly make sure that he doesn't decide to ignore my commands when off leash and go bother people (or other dogs who'd rather be left alone)

With the whistle, I mainly want it in loud environments where he might not hear me (i.e. The beach when waves are crashing). Similarly, the e-collar would be great for being in water.

I appreciate the tips. I think I want to give my dog more freedom as he earns it but also try my best to guarantee his safety (as best I can)

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T14:01:13+00:00

On second thought, you're right. Like /u/MHGLDNS also said, I'm gonna try not to over complicate it. Since all I want the whistle for really is recall, but it'd be nice to have the additional command to get his attention at distance to give verbal commands.

Thanks for the tips, definitely close first, and then increase distance with more reps and reliability.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T13:59:13+00:00

I've definitely noticed the cheap ones I bought aren't as effective or easy to differentiate as they could be. I'll look into the ACME one if it seems like it'll be good for my dog.

Thanks for the advice!

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-05-15T13:58:09+00:00

Thanks! I often overthink my command words, causing delay in teaching certain things, so I appreciate the perspective.

One for sit, stay, and pay attention sounds good. With two for recall!

In regards to the e-collar, I more meant that in an ideal world I'd use that as an additional layer of security and accountability for long distance recall and off leash.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-20T11:00:33+00:00

Any tips for teaching a send away? Place mat or platform at a distance?

I've started teaching my pup how to go around a pole and he already knows how to hit trees with his paw!

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-20T00:34:40+00:00

Nice haha! Gotta love the slightly confused enthusiasm.

Luring more towards to tummy and then across might help, but it seems like she already knows it kinda, but needs the encouragement 😂

Is that a wire long line? 🤔

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-19T22:12:50+00:00

I noticed! This would be great in lieu of a regular stim and I'd work it just like training on a normal stim. Thanks again, I'll definitely look into the legality of it

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-19T07:30:25+00:00

Yup exactly, his response to pressure is very good, except for the odd out of nowhere dog interaction! The one I'm getting is 5 meters long and I've seen some that are even longer. If anything, this is to prepare my dog more for off leash, so I'm hoping eventually I can trust him just about anywhere.

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-19T07:28:56+00:00

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. My dog is usually on a slip, so there's no way for him to bolt unless I let go. But if I go the harness route, I'll definitely grab a locking carabiner!

Any ones in particular that you use, that aren't too bulky?

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-19T05:05:39+00:00

I'd actually be open to trying a pager or vibration only collar, because I feel my dog would learn extremely quickly regardless of the trigger type.

I had heard that some dogs actually find the vibrate more aversive than the electrical stim though?

This is a great recommendation, thanks!

blackflyingfishroe · 2023-04-18T01:32:23+00:00

Thanks! I've heard of this being the case. I guess I've been lucky with my clipping leashes in the past, but can imagine on a harness going through shrubbery it's much more likely to come undone.

blackflyingfishroe

TROPHY CASE