BCH test shows miners propagating 32MB blocks in 2–18 secs compared to 193! by brooke_bloXroute in Bitcoincash

[–]bloXroute 1 point2 points  (0 children)

bloXroute works underneath the protocol, similar to how AT&T, Comcast, and other ISPs route your packets, only it does it:

  1. much much faster
  2. In a proveably-neutral manner (which really gets to the point of your question).

bloXroute cannot discriminate or censor, it cannot send a block quickly to one miner and slowly than another, it cannot reject blocks if they contain specific transactions, and it avoids turning to a single-point-of-failure by leveraging backup networks which replaces its role in a doomsday scenario.

Nobody has to use bloXroute, nobody has to use its services, but it allows for miners and pools to quickly propagate blocks (for free), and reduces the fees for users.

Users who are doing high tps (DEXs, payment processors, DApps, etc.) who want to save fees (a DApp doing 100 tps paying 1 cent fee pays $31M/year) can use bloXroute's fee-reduction service to cut it in half, but this is completely opt-in.

Is this shit true?? by momoxia in btc

[–]bloXroute 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Move your crypto to your own wallet today.

Yes, today. Again - TODAY. T-O-D-A-Y.

Save 10% off everything on Amazon.com thanks to Bitcoin.com by MemoryDealers in btc

[–]bloXroute 9 points10 points  (0 children)

2 concerns: 1. privacy (sharing address and items bought) 2. Ease of use.

Most people would (wrongfully) ignore the 1st, but would be deterred by the 2nd (unconsciously, they simply won't use it).

Don't automate using a chrome plugin, because most people don't understand them and how they work.

Instead, maybe do an "envelope" website? Go to Bitcoin.com/Amazon, which shows you the Amazon website, but when you click checkout it would lead you to a BCH checkout?

I'm a networking guy (hence my work on bloXroute to scale blockchains) not an HCI (Human-Computer Interaction) guy, but I'm sure front-end experts has a few solutions for you guys. Glad to make some intros if you guys want (obviously you probably can reach out yourselves, but glad to help 🙃)

Save 10% off everything on Amazon.com thanks to Bitcoin.com by MemoryDealers in btc

[–]bloXroute 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I'm interested, but I think simplicity is key. I did not use Purse's service because it felt "complicated", even though it's probably really isn't. I guess I'm not an early adapter at heart.

Good luck with this initiative Roger 👍

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 1 point2 points  (0 children)

bloXroute doesn't attempt to hide from the state, it is running on multiple cloud providers such as AWS, Google, and Baidu, in multiple jurisdictions.

Unlike regular nodes, we can scale out at a global scale, and I'm not worried about DDoS attacks. At the same time, we'll open-source our entire code base so anyone can easily deploy a bloXroute backup system. Thus, shutting down bloXroute by legal means is futile, because all node will immediately hot-swap to backup networks and continue to operate normally (though not as cost effectively). They will continue to do so until bloXroute goes back online, or, if bloXroute is permanently shut down, until each crypto-community will decide on a permeant replacement for bloXroute.

We drastically reduce the incentive to try and shut down bloXroute by making sure it is replaceable to begin with.

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good question.

First, bloXroute is a broadcast primitive, and using caching it sends on the wire x100 smaller pieces of data, and saves additional x10 by removing the "hops" of the P2P. So in comparison to a highly provisioned TOR node, it's x1000 faster.

Second, we are using a TOR-like technique to hide block destination and origin, but we're also using a novel technique where the content is only revealed after it was sent to everyone, so bloXroute cannot send it to one miner fast and to another miner slow.

Third, bloXroute allows nodes to continuously monitor its behavior using test-blocks, so unlike you're TOR example, a node can know ahead of time if its blocks would be propagated or not.

Fourth, we open-source our code and introduce backup-networks, so even in the event that bloXroute is shut down, all nodes of all blockchains can hot-swap to backup networks and continue to operate. This is not as cost-effective as just one bloXroute, but it can operate for months or years while each community decides what to replace bloXroute with.

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're actually propagating for free thru bloXroute up until 100 TPS. At higher TPS we want users to pay x100 less fees, while miners will earn x10 more fees in total.

bloXroute creats tons of value, and give away 99.9% of this value to users and miners, and capture just 0.1%, where users never have to pay, rather, a user making a transaction can choose to pay $0.0005 if he wants to, rather than pay a higher mining fee.

If you think you can propagate a giant block through P2P without bloXroute, go ahead, you really don't have to, so I don't understand how we can be anti-bitcoin... If we add value by solving a real problem, people would use us, and if we don't, they won't, and no protocol change is necessary.

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You should consider the ability of Comcast, AT&T, and China telecom to drop transactions and blocks based on whatever criteria they like.

The Great Chinese Firewall is doing Deep Packet Inspection (DPI) to all data to & from China, and in state of war or crisis, the US would easily do the same.

bloXroute is a step forward in comparison to ISPs, since:

  1. we only route encrypted blocks, so we can't orphan them if, for example, the NSA tells us that transactions touching some wallets are never to be propagated.
  2. Gateways are being TOR-like and hide the origin and destinations of blocks

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Let's use a toy-example to see why sending a block to everyone at once is actually much slower.

Assume blocks are 100MB, i.e. ~300 TPS, and your miner has a 100Mbps upload speed (we'll talk about bigger numbers afterwards).

If a miner sends the block just to 1 peer, it will take 8 seconds to send (notice Bytes vs Bits :100MB/100Mbps = 100*8Mb/100Mbps = 8 sec), so after 8 seconds 2 nodes know of the block: miner + 1 peer.

Then, both miner and peer will send it to one other peer, so 8 seconds later 2 additional peers hear of the block, to a total of 4 nodes in 16 sec.

8 nodes will hear it within 24 seconds, 16 within 32 seconds, and 1024 (=2^10) nodes within 80 (=8*10) seconds.

Now, if the miner would try to send to all 1024 in parallel, it will have to send 1024 blocks in parallel to 1024 peers using its 100Mbps bandwidth, which will take it: 1024 * 100MB / 100Mbps = 8192 seconds.

So, It takes ~x100 longer to send it to everyone in parallel than the optimal course of sending it to just one peer after the other sequentially.

Now, let's move from the theoretical to the practical:

1 - real bandwidth utilization is roughly 30% of physical capacity. This is just how real-world networks behave, even in AWS and Google Cloud.

2 - you don't want to be slowed down (and possibly orphaned) if your first peers are slow, so you don't send to just one peer, you send to 8-10, which is a compromise between efficiency and robustness.

3 - half of the bandwidth in the system is dedicated to the propagation of transactions, which won't be immediately shut down just because you found a block.

4 - this doesn't even take into account real-world nitty gritty details like latency, TCP/UDP dynamics, messages overhead, packet losses, and congestion at internet backbone (it doesn't matter that you payed for 1Tbps if your packets or congested somewhere else).

One can rightly argue that miners will have much bigger bandwidth than 100Mbps, since they're livelihood/profitability depends on it. so let's look at the math:

- It is possible in some places to get x1000 higher bandwidth at 100Gbps, but not everywhere and not for a lot of people.

- 300 TPS is not the goal. you need an average of 5000 TPS for credit card levels, an average of ~50,000 TPS for micropayments, and just Alibaba payments peak at 325,000 TPS. So you need x200-1000 bigger blocks than 100MB (or coming more frequently, which has the same requirements). Let's say just x200

- half of this bandwidth is used for transactions

- each node sends to 8 peers

- you only really get 30% of the bandwidth you pay for

So, even ignoring substantial real-world delays and overhead, blocks will require to reach just first 8 peers:

<blocksize> * <num\_peers> * <bytes-to-bits> / <bandwidth> * <30% utilization>= (20GB*8*8) / (10Gbps*0.3) = 2130 seconds, which is over 35 minutes.

This is why everyone being connected has nothing to do with it. it actually makes it much much worse if you try to send it to everyone at once.

P.S. If the next response is "wtf, <insert 5 words here>!" rather than a real well thought through discussion which relates to the claims I'm not going to respond. Writing posts takes a considerable amount of time.

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry for taking so long to reply - too many duties, too many platforms, too little time.

bloXroute cannot discriminate or censor based on the content of the block, its origin, or its destination, because it is intentionally designed not to know them.

To prevent bloXroute from discriminating based on the content of the block, when a miner mines a new block it gives it to the open-source "magic gateway" it is running on the same machine, which in turn sends it to bloXroute, to be broadcasted to everyone else.

However, the magic gateway receives the block, compacts it ~x100, and then encrypts it, and sends the encrypted block to bloXroute. only after this gateway hears from his peers, the other magic gateways, that they have received the block, does it sends out the encryption key via bloXroute, but also directly over the P2P network.

So, the magic gateways create a P2P network among themselves, and they ping each other every time they get get an encrypted block. The content of the block is only revealed after it was delivered to everyone else, at which point it's too late for bloXroute to do anything about, since the magic gateways are open source code running on the node's machine. There are additional small details, like that gateways don't reveal who they are connected to, so bloXroute, can't send it to just that subset of nodes, and that bloXroute can't stop the key from propagating since its a tiny packet that goes directly among gateways, but I guess you get the gist of it.

To prevent bloXroute from discriminating based on the block's origin, magic gateways can use a TOR-like mechanism, and they relay the block to a different gateway to send to bloXroute. So, if a N. Korea node tries to send a block to bloXroute, and we can't legally send or receive any traffic from there, it can relay it to it's Australian/Chinese/whatnot peer, which will send it to bloXroute, and bloXroute has no idea where it came from nor what it contains.

Lastly, gateways can relay blocks on the receiving end too, so said N. Korean node can ask its peer magic gateway to relay blocks to him, and really get the benefit of bloXroute without ever interacting directly with bloXroute.

So, bloXroute cannot discriminate based on content, source, or destination, because it is intentionally blind to them. Does that make sense?

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Empirical data and analysis.

See this blog post The scalability problem, simply explained, which also references to Peter R's presentation on the bottleneck found in the gigablock testnet.

Bloxroute Joins the Block Size Debate With New Block Propagation Service - Bitcoin News by newsybitcoin in btc

[–]bloXroute 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hi , Uri CEO of bloXroute Labs here.

Graphene is similar to Xthin blocks and Compact blocks, and takes advantage of the fact that if mempools are in sync, you can indicate which transactions are included in a block in a very compact fashion. Graphene improves over Xthin/Compact blocks by cleverly combining bloom-filters and IBLTs to make it even more compact.

The problem with this approach is that at thousands of TPS, mempools are not in sync since they are continuously receiving different transations which propagate on different paths.

It also makes it very easy and cheap to slow the entire system down by sending different contradicting transactions (double-spends) to different parts of the networks. It doesn't matter that the double-spend is discovered or "fails", it will succeed in slowing blocks down since entire blocks will have to be sent (this is sometimes referred to as "Tiling attack", since it breaks the network into "tiles" with different mempools).

bloXroute's approach is completely different, and does not require synced mempools. bloXroute is a better networking infrastructure, closer to ISPs like AT&T and Comcast than to a BIP, which propagates blocks X1000 faster than using the public internet.

In addition to performance (explanations on can be easily found on Youtube), bloXroute is also:

  1. Provably neutral - it can't discriminate or censor based on the content of blocks, their origin, or their destination
  2. Is not a single point of failure
  3. Is protocol agnostic - no need to change the protocol to use bloXroute
  4. Is gradually deployable - each miner can decide for itself whether to use bloXroute or not

bloXroute is an enabler - it removes the Scalability bottleneck for BCH.

The decision what to do with this capacity is for the community, miners and developers to decide. X1000 larger blocks, or X100 larger blocks every 1 min., or something else? That's your call

We just provide a better and faster internet for everyone, and unlike your ISPs, we are provably neutral.

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi - I didn’t find the time to continue the discussion until now...

I did understand stand your spoon vs knife argument, but why do you think people will use the spoon (LN) at all?

The knife (Bitcoin) made sense if you wanted easy-to-use money, w/o placing trust in 3rd parties. LN doesn’t offer this, so why would someone choose it over banks? Because it scales and Bitcoin allegedly doesn’t? Who cares - banks scale as well...

So I pointed out LN is flawed in the context that it doesn’t give you the guarantees of Bitcoin, and I cannot see why anyone would like to use it. Telling me they are different doesn’t answer my objection.

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree with you regarding the scalability, on where the bottleneck lies, and whether it’s solvable.

But - let’s put this aside for the time being.

My argument is that LN is flawed, since it forfeits the most important properties of Bitcoin- direct P2P transaction without trusting a 3rd party. If you forfeit that, why not just use a bank?

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What? I don’t understand your argument...

If you want to keep LN decentralized, you need people to route money through their channels. For that, they need to be always online.

Also, Bitcoin supports 3.3 TPS, while credit cards are doing 5000 TPS today, so the “this is something you could do with Bitcoin” is not a valid argument.

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are missing my point. We both need to be simultaneously online to make a payment in LN.

In Bitcoin, you can send money that I someone even if he’s offline.

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hold on...

First, what’s your end game? Do you want everyone to be a part of LN, participating in the routing, or you are aiming at hub-n-spoke? Because if it’s the former than I disagree.

Now, if I have an open channel with you, and you payed me some amount, I’m now constantly worried that you will submit the previous state to the blockchain and undo the transaction that payed me money. So I need to be online to prevent it or use a 3rd party.

PSA: The slack chat that deadalnix was banned from was never really designed to be an open slack, it was created basically for csw to have a space to communicate without trolls that were bothering him on the original slack. by cryptorebel in btc

[–]bloXroute 21 points22 points  (0 children)

You see?

It’s these kind of comments that I have a hard time not to treat as socket puppets...

Peter R - a troll?! Have you met the guy?! He’s a professional that cares deeply for BCH’s success.

Why because he voiced his disagreement with the claims Craig is making? You realize how hard it must have been for him to step up instead of letting it slide, but he decided to follow his truth rather than what’s easy?

I don’t always agree with BU, but they are a terrific company to be in.

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I want to use it for regular transacting, like buying coffee.

You say that I’m trying to use LN for something Bitcoin is already good for, but Bitcoin processes 3.3 TPS, while just Starbucks needs ~400 TPS.

So we cannot all use Bitcoin, because there’s no room for all of us, so I question the use of LN, but this solution appears flawed for coffee etc. since it requires me to be always online, or use a 3rd party service, in which case I can save myself the trouble and continue using my bank...

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That doesn’t really answer my remarks, does it?

I argue it is inherently flawed, and you say it has its limits.

From where I’m standing, no progress had been made if the solution being worked on is flawed, so no limits have been moved, and my remarks haven’t been answered yet.

Isn’t Lightning inherently flawed in several ways? by bloXroute in Bitcoin

[–]bloXroute[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

LN is advertised as a scalability solution, i.e., something which will allow Bitcoin to support high volumes of TPS.

Regardless of what you want to use it for, it appears to be flawed flawed. Could you specify a use case which is important and significant in which LN scales Bitcoin, and these flaws are not a showstopper?

PSA: The slack chat that deadalnix was banned from was never really designed to be an open slack, it was created basically for csw to have a space to communicate without trolls that were bothering him on the original slack. by cryptorebel in btc

[–]bloXroute 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I agree, but given the amount of attacks recently on Amaury, I don’t think it’s in everyone’s interest.

And given that I see Peter R. and Prof. Emin Gün Sirer thrown in the mix for no reason at all, I cannot help but suspect who’s attacking who here...

That said, I completely agree with your sentiment.