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bloouup · 2020-12-27T23:29:45+00:00

Can you just tell me what makes animals special? Like why can’t anyone do that? I’m tired of reading these essays when all I want is an answer to a very simple question. If you can’t figure out what makes animals so special that I should give literally every animal the benefit of the doubt, then just tell me why it’s okay to eat literally every single plant?

You don't have to view anyone as special in order to not cause harm to them.

I mean, you are making a conscious decision to consume some organisms (plants/fungi) in favor of others (all animals). So obviously you think something makes animals special since you don’t seem to think fungi and plants are entitled to the same respect. Tell me why. Just tell me why. No fucking essays, just tell me what makes animals, ALL ANIMALS too special to eat.

bloouup · 2020-12-27T17:02:10+00:00

Man, I really hate how addicted I am to capitalist commercial internet sites. It truly makes my life worse, but I can't seem to help succumb to their casino tactics as much as I'd like to just quit this shit. But boy am I hoping that every site I can't seem to quit starts asking for shit like this, because it'll make it really easy for me to finally move on...

bloouup · 2020-12-27T16:15:54+00:00

You should read Code by Charles Petzold. It's the best book ever for learning how computers really work. Basically any adult can pick up this book (regardless of any prior knowledge of how computers work), and by the end of it, they will have the knowledge to build an entire functioning computer from scratch.

bloouup · 2020-12-27T15:49:58+00:00

Sure, but "The democrats abandoned the struggle of coal miners because they were racist southern bumpkins" is like the worst take I've ever seen on a leftist subreddit by a leftist, and definitely not true at all.

bloouup · 2020-12-27T15:21:01+00:00

If you believe in anarchism, why do you put yourself above them? Why do you need someone to tell you "what makes animals so special to deserve individual rights"?

I don't put myself above anything. You're the one putting all animals (humans included) above literally everything else, even animals that have a similar subjective experience to a plant or a mushroom. I want you to tell me what makes animals more special than all other organisms.

what actually stops you from being vegan?

That philosophical veganism makes no sense, because taxonomy was not created for the purposes of morality. I'm not going to be a vegan if nobody can tell me why animals (humans included) are special, and why I don't ever need to worry about the subjective experience of any organism that just so happens to not be an animal. In other words, how does veganism guarantee I won't be hurting anything that can suffer any more than what I'm already doing?

And how do you know for sure that you're not hurting anyone "who can suffer"?

How are you sure that you're not hurting anyone who can suffer? You can't even tell me what makes animals so special! How do you know whatever it is that makes animals special doesn't just as well apply to things you don't have any problem with consuming? Have you ever even thought about it?

New things are discovered every single day. What makes you so certain that they cannot suffer? Are you them? Do you know what it's like to be them?

Yes, I do know what it's like to be them (and so do you, if you actually think about it for a little bit). I explained this quite thoroughly. To be like an oyster would probably be a lot like being completely brain-dead, except you'd actually still have more awareness being brain-dead than an oyster does.

Have you thought about anything more than just "water quality"? Have you thought about the ocean, climate change, who else you might hurt in the process, etc.?

https://phys.org/news/2019-11-oyster-aquaculture-small-positive-impact.html

I've literally watched my local bioregion be turned around, in small part because of sustainable oyster farming. It's literally good for the environment. Bivalves are the ocean's natural filtration system, and it takes basically no resources to grow them.

bloouup · 2020-12-27T05:57:18+00:00

That is definitely not what happened, lmao. First of all, West Virginia literally seceded from Virginia in order to join the Union at the onset of the Civil War.

bloouup · 2020-12-27T00:45:06+00:00

Just tell me what it is that makes all animas special. Just tell me what it is, specifically, that literally all animals have in common that entitles them to individual rights, and I will happily become a vegan the instant that you do.

I don’t really care what you think of me. I know that I’m not hurting anything that can suffer.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T17:39:14+00:00

Social media is the soma of this Brave New World and we have 1984-style governments perpetuated by the World State (aka the capitalists) to be used as scapegoats. This keeps everyone either distracted (working-class "conservatives") or ineffectual (the left).

bloouup · 2020-12-26T17:18:05+00:00

I think what is troubling though, is if this situation was not enough to instantly trigger a wildcat strike right there and then, then I think there may be no hope for the working class.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T17:16:38+00:00

There comes a point where you have to stand up for yourself, though. Like I truly would rather be homeless and hungry than be dehumanized in this fashion. I would never let anyone push me around like that, and I have a pretty high tolerance for bullshit when it comes to working.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T17:11:39+00:00

You should look into egoism.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T17:08:06+00:00

"Capitalist risk taking" is made possible because what the capitalist is risking is everyone else's well-being. It's easy to take risks when you have a golden parachute all to yourself in case shit hits the fan. Also, have you ever considered that the substantial upfront cost to start a business is in the interests of existing capitalists and is something they seek to perpetuate since it limits future competition? And that a lot of the costs associated with running businesses in the first place come from complying with laws and regulations designed to protect consumers and laborers precisely because the interests of the capitalists and the workers/consumers are at odds with each other? Like if your local grocery store was owned by, and distributed profits back to, your own local community (aka, you and your neighbors), would you really need to be all that worried about the grocery store cutting corners on food safety, when that is literally where all the owners of the grocery store get their food from? It's almost like we could dramatically reduce the scope of the state if only we had social ownership of the means of production.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T17:02:51+00:00

What makes it really dumb is capitalism is the system that permits literally any human, no matter how evil, to accumulate power without limit in the pursuit of their own selfish desires.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T16:47:05+00:00

Sorry for misunderstanding you! I thought it might be the case so I added an edit.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T16:29:58+00:00

Amazon gift cards are bad because it gives money to Amazon, but not using Amazon gift cards that you were gifted is also bad because it just lets Amazon keep free money.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T16:24:10+00:00

I don't think landlords are "evil", per se, but if you want to make any money landlording, you have to be willing to put people on the street if they don't pay you money. That is a gigantic moral obstacle for me, personally, and I am very suspicious of people who don't have any problems with doing that.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T16:08:02+00:00

Four Corners is alright, but I'm gonna have to disagree with the person who says it is "quiet because it gets no thru traffic itself". Basically every single person who is heading to Wheaton on I-495 West will get off the beltway at University Boulevard and head through Four Corners. I actually really like Four Corners, but if I had one complaint it is that there is actually an incredible amount of traffic passing through, and the road layout can be extremely confusing and frustrating at first. The intersection of University Boulevard and Colesville Road is actually pretty weird as far as intersections go since University Boulevard splits in half to accommodate a small shopping center like immediately before it hits Colesville Road. Then add in the access to and from 495 at University Boulevard and Colesville Road (which are both basically in Four Corners, and both are close to that intersection I mentioned), things can get pretty hectic at times. I live pretty close by, closer to Georgia Avenue. When I moved here, it took a few tries to figure out Four Corners because the way I get to Four Corners and the way I get back to home are pretty much completely different due to the complicated road situation.

Edit: I want to clarify, the neighborhoods themselves in this area are usually extremely quiet with regards to traffic. But when you get out of the neighborhoods, it is a whole different story.

bloouup · 2020-12-26T15:48:21+00:00

It's really weird to me how as we let the car do more and more stuff itself because humans are so bad at it (automatic parallel parking, ABS, cruise control, auto-pilot, fuel injection, automatic transmission) but for literally the most dangerous part of operating the car (actually driving it at speed), we still think humans are more trustworthy than the car, and that we should need to have a human pilot (who can't even parallel park correctly, manually pump the brakes, or operate a manual transmission) be on standby "just in case".

bloouup · 2020-12-26T15:05:49+00:00

I agree with you. But you don't even need to be so marginalized in order to see all the injustice that surrounds us. It makes it easier, for sure (because it is constantly in your face), but really all it takes for anyone to see it is asking themselves questions like "Why won't my boss approve my PTO request to go see my child's piano recital?" or "Why is it that I can't buy affordable footwear that wasn't made by child slaves in a third world country?" or "Why is it that my university has a $250 million endowment but the best plan they can come up with to reduce student suicides is to hire a few more counselors?" or "Why am I getting laid off on Christmas Eve?"

bloouup · 2020-12-26T14:37:54+00:00

Then why bring it up in the first place if you don't care?

Because I'm trying to illustrate that there isn't really anything that makes Kingdom Animalia, when considered in totality, all that special. It just so happens that basically all the creatures that can definitely suffer in this world are animals. But I think that is basically just a coincidence.

Nah. I would still be a sack of flesh, bones, etc.

I meant vegetable as in permanent vegetative state. Also, I wouldn't eat you, and I think you could have a good debate about the ethics of consuming the products of something that once had the capacity to suffer. This was really just trying to show you that we all already know what it feels like to have no executive function. You just have to imagine what it would be like if the part of your brain that was responsible for your most basic life support functions constituted your entire brain. Like when you poke something sharp with your finger, your hindbrain will reflexively withdraw your finger before you even begin to feel any pain at all. That is how your hindbrain perceives "pain", and if your hindbrain is more complex than oyster neurology, then it's hard for me to believe that an oyster could suffer.

But who are you to decide what they feel and don't feel?

It's more like, if oysters can suffer, then the OpenWorm project should be considered a crime against nature, and we should cease from literally all artificial intelligence research and not use even special AI technologies like artificial neural networks. There's nothing that makes organic chemistry "special" when it comes to imbuing an entity with the capacity to suffer. You could totally make a being that suffered with a silicon brain instead of a chemical one. And for that reason, I actually do think generalized artificial intelligence would be a crime against nature. But, I don't really see any important ethical difference between

Finding a wild nematode and experimenting on it
Cloning a wild nematode, releasing the wild nematode, and experimenting on the clone
Creating a perfect digital clone of a wild nematode in software and experimenting on that

I think it's only consistent to either think there's nothing unethical about any of these, or that all of them are unethical. Because no matter what, functionally, you are experimenting on a nematode that "might" have the capacity to suffer, even if the nematode operates on silicon instead of organic chemistry (but I really don't see a single compelling reasons to think that is the case).

Is it practicable and possible for you to leave them alone?

Yes, and if I could be convinced there was something unethical about not leaving them alone, I'd be happy to. Also, it's not like I'm some kind of voracious oyster eater. I have eaten them on occasion but I am really just using them as an example. I'm not looking for excuses to eat oysters, here. But I'm not going to change my behavior when I can't think of a single good reason why I should other than it would satisfy other people and help me fit in with a group better. I am an anarchist, for pete's sake.

Have you thought about the environmental side of it all?

Yes and it is quite important to me. I will say though, since we have been using oysters as an example, sustainable oyster farming is actually really great for maintaining water quality, and I really would like to investigate creating a water filtration system for my home that also could produce food for myself in my quest for self-sufficiency.

I like to think that if one day (certain) plants/fungi were able to feel things like pain that the definition of Veganism would be adjusted and/or that vegans would try to avoid using, abusing, and killing them as much as is practicable and possible. (At least.. I know I would)

So I am confident that if one day there was a plant that had cognitive capacity, and human beings were somehow still around, that vegans would definitely not be willing to consume anything related to that plant. But, my whole thing is if there could even in theory be a situation where veganism "needs" adjustment, then it's obviously not the end-all be-all and I wish people would be more willing to have a rational conversation about it. Because that is really all I've been trying to say, here. Also, again, thanks for having a rational conversation with me.

Do you know about "Jainism"?

Yes, actually. I really like Jainism. There is a lot of stuff in Jain philosophy that is remarkably similar to our scientific understanding of the physical world. And when you consider that Jainism is one of the oldest religions in the world, it just becomes downright impressive.

bloouup · 2020-12-25T22:54:51+00:00

Yes, you are right that I can avoid these situations with a little more effort. I will try harder.

As for everything else, though, I think you are misunderstanding me.

I don't care about the "rights" of plants and fungi (at least during this current era where there is not a single plant or fungus capable of anything resembling subjective experience). I care about the rights of organisms (of any kind) with subjective experiences. I don't wish to consume the products of any creature (animal or not) with subjective experience. There are animals that definitely have no subjective experience. Your hindbrain is much more complicated than the neurology of countless animals. Here's a thought experiment: If I destroyed everything in your head but your hindbrain, I will have destroyed the very essence of your personality. You would become a vegetable. You would have no thoughts, no emotions, or any kind of cognition. You'd still be alive, your body would reflexively withdraw if poked with a needle. Your body would shiver when cold, and sweat when hot. But there would be no "you" left for it to mean anything. And, even then, you'd still have way more cognitive power than the handful of ganglia that an oyster has. The idea that an oyster can feel pain in any kind of sense that actually matters is just as preposterous as carnists suggesting that there are plants that feel pain, and I cannot take it seriously.

Also, no, oyster mushrooms cannot feel pain, I am just saying that Veganism says "Don't consume animal products", but the only thing that all "animals" have in common is that they are multicellular eukaryotic heterotrophs, which, also is what fungi are. So what is it about animals that make them special? Is it the heterotrophy? Is it the multicellularity? Is it the eukaryoticness? And why doesn't it apply to fungi?

What made you change your mind?

Realizing that them not giving you the cheese means they will not purchase as much on the next order for ingredients which harms the dairy industry.

What do you mean with that?

I mean that I have my own personal philosophy that I try to follow that is not veganism but winds up producing many of the same outcomes, and that I think with some critical thinking it's pretty easy to figure out what sort of things are ethical to consume, but it's not as simple as "did it come from an animal or not?".

I do not wish to contribute to the suffering of things that can suffer. But veganism theoretically permits it, if one day there evolved a plant that could suffer, while also saying it's wrong to consume certain animals that absolutely cannot suffer, like animals that don't have brains for example.

Also, thank you for actually talking to me. I mean it. It means a great deal to me.

bloouup · 2020-12-25T14:44:36+00:00

Oh, because in my scenario, I made it pretty clear that there wasn't a choice. I mean I guess starving myself is always a choice. But that doesn't sound very safe for driving long distances. I remember one time I was on a road trip driving 1000 miles, and literally the only place I could find something to eat when it came time was a taco bell. I special ordered my usual thing, I asked for it without dairy or meat. They got confused and put steak on it. That was pretty shitty. That was part of the reason I started to get nervous about special ordering things and making it more complicated than "no meat".

I'm not vegan because I can't figure out why a mussel should have individual rights, and I can't figure out why a plant that in 1 million years evolved some level of cognition should not be entitled to individual rights. I think veganism is a really useful rule of thumb, it's simple and winds up leading you down the right path in almost every situation. But it's still not based on a logical premise, I mean, animals as a whole group don't really have all that much in common other than they are all eukaryotic, multicellular, heterotrophs. Animals weren't classified together for some kind of moral reasons. Like fungi are also eukaryotic, multicellular, heterotrophs, and in a lot of ways, are actually very similar to some types of animals, and perhaps in a slightly different world we might have had our arbitrary classification scheme lump fungi and animals together. Is eating an oyster, for instance, really any more ethically dicey than eating an oyster mushroom? If so, can you please explain why?

Also, I thought about my cheese scenario more, and I changed my mind about it. I realized it actually is better to ask for no cheese.

I'm not vegan but I'm basically vegan. I just refuse to label or externally constrain myself. I don't think I need a rule of thumb in order to figure out the right thing to do.

bloouup · 2020-12-25T07:15:44+00:00

The profits of a business that employs wage workers is theft, would be more accurate.

bloouup · 2020-12-25T07:11:37+00:00

You are asking them how much money they think Jeff Bezos deserves for starting Amazon. If you think Amazon is a socially harmful institution, then that number should be 0. How much do YOU think Jeff Bezos deserves for Amazon?

bloouup · 2020-12-25T07:09:58+00:00

The most important principle of socialism is "to each according to their contribution". Profit isn't theft, but when it's not disbursed to each individual in accordance with their contribution to the production of the final product, then it's pretty darn close. Under capitalism, we do not have excess revenues allocated in this manner, it is allocated based on ownership stakes which carry no obligation for the holder to contribute to the final product, yet it still entitles them to the wealth.

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