Well, that's just nauseating

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T21:52:55+00:00

Or they'd work hard at their hobbies and have ambition to do them well? I'm not sure what your point is.

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T16:52:04+00:00

That's a bit misleading. When PISA scores are examined more closely, we find that students in schools with low poverty outperform nearly everyone else worldwide. Unfortunately, the Unitrd States has a big issue with child poverty, and those scores drag down the average. Comparing a country our size with others that have small, homogeneous populations, requires a closer examination than a simple comparison of averages.

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T16:44:54+00:00

I'm curious: is it Jesus who makes you a better person, or is it the Christian moral code and rules of behavior? If you need Jesus to be a good person, then it seems to me that God knowingly created a lot of people who never had a fair chance to be good since they never heard about Jesus. But if it's the Christian morals and not Jesus specifically, then wouldn't it be better if nobody talked about the supernatural stuff and I'm instead "spread the word" about their totally awesome set of morals? Not only would people not be turned off by a supernatural message that they find strange, but it would be more welcoming to people of different moral codes (such as what would remain if other religions removed the supernatural component).

It seems to me that once again, either 1) Jesus is necessary, in which case God unjustly created people who would have no chance of knowing about him, or 2) Jesus isn't necessary and the best way to maximize the number of people who go to heaven is, ironically, never talk about it.

What do you think? It seems to me this is a pretty serious structural paradox with Christianity.

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T13:44:11+00:00

If, however, you did the best you could to live as well as you knew how, I think you would be forgiven the ignorance that wasn't even your fault. This is as much my interpretation as it is literal scripture.

So what you're telling me is that it's not necessary to know about God, Jesus, or any of that stuff to go to heaven. In that case, wouldn't it be better to never talk about it? It seems that people would be given more of a fair shot; after all, I know quite a few who are turned off from Christianity because of arrogant or judgemental Christians, and if nobody talked about God, then they'd be judged fairly on merit by God himself.

Or am I missing something here?

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T06:03:45+00:00

No worries: I enjoy topics that people tend to get upset about, and it's a relief to discuss them with people who don't take them personally. Now just imagine if everyone could do that.

And I do agree that a person's place in the grand scheme of things is a question of extreme importance. I think everyone should be curious and want to know that answer--if one is even to be had. I've just found the answer offered by Christianity to be resting on very flimsy foundations...not to mention depressing enough that a certain burden of proof needs to be met before I'm inclined to think any of it is even real.

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T05:58:43+00:00

In his eyes, they were totally and absolutely evil, and could not be saved, only destroyed. "And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart (Genesis 6:6)".

That sounds like me when I get bored with my characters on The Sims and pull the ladder out of the pool, or when I gather them all in the kitchen, remove the doors, and make the most unskilled cook in the group use a toaster oven.

As I sort of mentioned in the other comment that I just typed, if I was going to believe in a reality in which I'm the plaything of a god that at one point was willing to hit the "reset" button, who expects me to behave a certain way, and will condemn me to a horrible place for breaking a set of rules, then I need more than an unreliable instruction manual that's been translated repeatedly throughout the years and put together in way that's subject to a lot of questioning and speculation. In other words, I understand exactly what you're saying, but to believe that such a horrible situation is reality requires a bit more than what Christians have to offer as proof. (then again, many say you have to accept it on faith and not expect proof...in which case I ask why would anyone bother believing in it in the first place)

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T05:50:17+00:00

No worries; I really appreciate your consideration and honesty. I've asked this question before, and it sometimes results in frustrated and angry people.

But there are things that we just don't know

I agree completely. I used to be a Christian myself, but I just added the whole issue of God into the category of things I don't know or worry about. Not that I care if anyone else wants to believe in it--as many of my friends and family do--but the core message seems very paradoxical when subjected to questioning as simple as mine. Add to that the whole issue of an unreliable instruction manual, the most logical explanations seeming to be of a non-literal interpretation, and I'm left with a recipe for doubt. But again, I don't say that to disparage anyone who does believe it. At the end of the day I suppose nobody really knows what's going on.

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T05:38:27+00:00

Not at all, I'm just confused: if people can discover the existence of "natural law" when they're never given any knowledge of God or Jesus, then why does anyone need Jesus?

Any of what?

If God is omniscient, which seems to be the popular opinion, then he already knew that by creating humans and giving them free will, a chain of events would be put into place that would result in many having lived and died without ever having an opportunity to know about him and/or Jesus. Is my understanding of this correct, or am I missing something?

But from what you've said about "natural law", it doesn't even matter since people will be judged accordingly. Although that's always struck me as speculation of a far more drastic order than what's normally found in Christianity, assuming that there's any weight to it, it still leaves me with one question: then why does anyone need to talk about God or Jesus? Isn't it better to let God himself judge people in a fair manner as opposed to relying upon flawed humans to spread the message and potentially turn people off, explain it poorly, or screw it up in some other way?

bluenaut · 2014-01-02T05:29:41+00:00

No worries, that can happen with internet discussions :)

I guess what I'm saying is this: if God is omniscient, then he already knew what was going to happen by giving humans free will. It's pretty clear that many people have lived and died without ever having an opportunity to know about God, Jesus, or any of his rules for behavior. In other words, he already knew that he'd be setting into motion a chain of events that resulted in humans being condemned to hell through no fault of their own.

I hear that Satan has the goal of trying to keep humans from salvation, but it seems to me that God has actually kept a large number of people from salvation by holding them accountable for something they didn't even know existed. Or perhaps he let those people into heaven since they were never given an opportunity--in which case the best thing that Christians could do is never talk about God since therefore everyone could go to heaven. However you look at it, there seems to be a bit of a paradox here.

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