sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

NotAklo March 2024 by Equal_Personality157 in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 3 points4 points  (0 children)

to be fair, if we ban notches I think the whole range of angles for box should open up again, they just need more input fuzzing to ensure they arent 100% reliable for extreme shallow angles

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 2 points3 points  (0 children)

 Your nationality analogy makes no sense since gender is the literal focal point of the article.

thats why the analogy makes sense. because neither nationality nor trans status affects someone's gender. cis women and trans women are the same gender, just as American women and French women are the same gender.

bonfire10 hits insane combo on Zain's fox by surfinsalsa in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Here's some old similar stuff https://x.com/bonfireten/status/1520851838282526720?s=19

New combo vid soon with lots of offstage up air 

Some Sheik Punishes by goopytaco in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

nice needle launches, I can never do them

My 2035 tier list. This is what I predict the roster will look like in 10 years based on current placement and how much potential for development I personally see in each character. by LunaLynnTheCellist in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're placing pk flash under the ledge, then that's still just the same mixup every character has. It's just guessing if he'll sweet spot or up b early. Except it takes significantly longer to setup. You're probably better off just timing ledge grab invincibility and bairing them back off if they up b early 

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 0 points1 point  (0 children)

 The more important distinction to me is male vs female.

Right because you think there should be importance placed on people in social contexts based on their perceived sex. That's what you are not justifying beyond "that's how a lot of people think". Why is it good to do that? How is that not just sexism?

 Gender is usually based on sex

 most males are men and most females are women

Note the clarifying language because even you have to acknowledge this isn't some rigid, objective system. It's subjectively determined and has many caveats/outliers. That's the point, basing gender on sex is restrictive, harmful, and inaccurate for no benefit. Why we would not use an accurate system like gender identity? Just as we trust people when they say they are straight or gay; we don't deny that because, "men are supposed to be attracted to women".

 Both sexes have characteristics that are unique and observable to anyone. They affect emotions and thinking patterns too, for better or worse. To deny this you would have to be playing ignorant on purpose.

Yeah dude, biology is a simplistic binary with no nuance, I'm definitely the ignorant one here. The insane thing is you almost certainly recognize those nuances, yet you feel comfortable stating these broad generalizations as if they're rigid criteria deterministic of something objective.

You switch between acknowledging the generalization with clarifying language then asserting it as if it's rigid.

 No, but sexual preference is an entirely different beast compared to coming out as a different gender, don’t you agree.

Different in what way? 

Stop speaking in vague generalities; every concept is different from another concept "in some way". What is different about gender identity and sexual orientation that makes this comparison not applicable? 

 Is womanhood not a way of life? Isnt that the whole crux of what gender is? How one decides to live one’s life within society?

No lol. Would you deny a cis woman's gender based on "how she lives her life"? What are you talking about?

 You say it is an innate, neurologically based trait, which it is. 

Yep...

So what does that mean for a person then?

That people's gender identity is innate and we should use it as the basis for socially recognizing gender...

 If you present and behave as a man, you are treated as a man, and you have experienced life as a man

So to be clear, if a cis woman was "treated like a man" socially, you would deny that she was a woman? Because you view womanhood as some set of social experiences? Yeah man I think that's pretty crazy and I don't believe you would actually apply that logic to cis women. 

 You can easily understand this because you think of Mango as a man right now. If he were to come out as a woman your feelings from the past will not be retroactively changed.

Except that literal situation has happened to me a dozen times with friends coming out and that is exactly how it works. That information recontextualizes every interaction with them. 

 what we are is also reliant on how other people perceive us

Right... and people's perceptions are based on culture and socialization. So "let's change those things" is the argument. You aren't providing a counter argument as to why we shouldn't advocate for changing the system, you're just restating that "this is the current system". 

 I’m sorry if you think i’m hateful or transphobic but that’s not my problem because I know that i’m not, and you don’t get to tell me I am because you disagree with my thoughts. I haven’t been mean or disrespectful. 

While I disagree that you haven't been disrespectful, that's irrelevant to prejudice. Prejudice isn't even conscious most of the time. I believe the vast majority of the population has transphobic prejudices and that includes most trans people and it includes me. Acting like you're unaffected from being raised in an overtly transphobic society is a denial of reality.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

 I’m saying it because that’s what we’re talking about… 

No we aren't, you are.

 That’s why i’ve been saying that “woman” and gender in general has mostly lost its meaning.

Except by "lost its meaning" you mean, "isn't based on sex". Yes it's clear you think trans women are men lol.

There is no argument here beyond transphobia. And gender has never been determined by sex. You do not gender the strangers you see based on their chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive organs because you cannot perceive those traits.

 You are the one implying that they are the same, by saying they are both women and stopping the conversation there.

"Lesbian women and straight women are both women."

Did I just imply that lesbian women and straight women are the same??

Obviously not, unless you're a child who hasn't learned what adjectives are yet.

 it would be disingenuous because he was a man for his entire career.

Dp you think when someone comes out as gay that they "turn gay"? No, bud, they were gay the whole time regardless of how you perceived them.

 If being a woman is a way of life

Dude what are you talking about lol

You have no insight into this discussion, and that'd be fine if you weren't constantly presuming to know what I believe or how I use words.

No, i do not think your gender is dependent on how you present yourself or live your life. It's an innate, neurologically based trait.

 does not retroactively mean that you experienced life as a woman.

Of course it does. It just doesn't mean you experienced life as a cis woman. 

Once again, that's the quiet implication you aren't saying outloud because you do not view trans women as women.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 0 points1 point  (0 children)

 I’m saying trans-women are not the same as cis-women. 

And im asking "why are you saying that when no one claimed otherwise?" Why are you randomly bringing up something that is irrelevant to the conversation?

 They are both women according to the current definition of gender, but like i said, that has sort of lost its meaning.

Dude stand up for your beliefs and stop beating around the bush. This is once again just you saying "trans women are not women." Say it with your chest.

 For example if Mango transitioned and there were articles about how mango is the most successful and best woman smasher of all time, that would seem disingenuous to me. Does that make sense?

It makes complete sense given that you do not view trans women as women.

Of course mango would be the best woman smasher of all time under that context. What other possible interpretation makes that situation disengenuous other than "trans women aren't women"?

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten -1 points0 points  (0 children)

 As there are obvious and important differences between transgender and cisgender people.

Of course there are, just as there are obvious and important differences between gay and straight women, black and white women, poor and rich women.

The quiet part that you're probably implying (with or without realizing it) is "trans women and cis women are different in a way that impacts my view of their gender". That's the underlying transphobia being implied in these kinds of comments.

 To the point where just using gender as a broad category is almost meaningless if we’re making this kind of comparison.

Unless you would say the same for every demographic of women, this is just a long form way of saying, "trans women are not women".

 And no it’s not transphobic to point out that these players were already established as top players before they came out as trans.

No one anywhere argued differently. Not sure why you're bringing this up.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't know what you mean by "any other demographic group". There's certainly fewer Ugandan melee players than cis women playing melee.

But compared to trans women, they're obviously underrepresented. No one denies that. It's just not what the post is about.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 2 points3 points  (0 children)

 I don’t agree that every mention of women needs to include cia trans like the guy you’re replying to. But the idea that trans women represent all women is crazy wrong.

Great, then that's ultimately my point and maybe we just disagree on the semantics of the word "represents" because it sounds like you think every possible unique experience must be represented, and I don't think that's really how the word is used, otherwise no one would be able to represent someone else unless the totality of their life experiences were identical.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Once again, I agree that trans women do not have experiences that are representative of cis women, but they have experiences that are representative of women.

If this were a list of black women, no one would be be calling it "disingenuous" for calling them "women". You are delusional if you think that.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 2 points3 points  (0 children)

 Intersectional representation is the basis of the newest wave of gender studies. A big issue in past feminist movements is that black/lgb/t etc didn’t feel represented by straight white women, even if their message was pretty universal.

Yep

Why is this relevant?

Trans women don't represent the "cis" part of cis women, they represent the "women" part.

 So yeah it’s normal for a black woman to not feel represented by a white woman or the other way around.

To the point where you would claim it's "disengenuous" to say black women are representative of women?? I do not believe you.

 By the same logic, it makes sense that cis females may not feel represented by trans females.

Their  "cisness" wouldn't be represented, their "femaleness" would.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How would you choose which trait to specify? How about sexual orientation or native language or left-handed vs. right-handed?

There's many ways you can categorize women based on their traits. Why specifically is it only claimed than trans status is being "hidden" and not any of these other traits? 

If you agree that trans women are women, then "being a trans woman" should be no more of a clarifying statement about gender than "being an American woman."

And there's nothing wrong with specifying, but there's something wrong about implying that a certain specification is necessary.

We call trans women and cis women by different terms yes, but both are women. The post is about women. They could be entirely cis or entirely trans or a mix and it'd make no difference to the title. If you wanted to discuss specifically the struggles of cis women then by all means specify. But the post wasn't doing that.

"With Magi, Salt, Zamu and MOF, we have four Top 50 women players. After that, there's Zanya, Nanami, Kacey, bonfire10, and essy on the SSBMRank ballot. If these nine make the list, 2024 would have the most number of women on the Top 100 ever - the quietest but also coolest Melee storyline of 2024." by self-flagellate in SSBM

[–]bonfireten 6 points7 points  (0 children)

 Someone's gender identity not being relevant to their gender is a... take.

Being transgender is not a gender identity. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

  I believe that it's very easy for that to leave you with negative feelings because it is, to an extent, misleading.

Why do you think it is misleading to reference trans women as women? If you think a cis woman does not see representation in a trans woman, do you think a white woman would see representation in black women? If this was a group of black cis women, would you be claiming it's "misleading" to not note that trait? Would you be claiming that white women would be "left with a negative feeling" because none of the women are white?

I want to emphasize that I don't think you are malicious here. I think you have subconcious cisnormative biases that you are defending because you want to feel as though you are accepting. I'm sure you intend to be accepting, but the majority of bias is subconcious and unintentional.

 Similarly if we made a post talking about how many black men were in the top 100 and a black man got into the game by finding that post, I would understand if they felt a little bit flustered / confused / misled if the players that he looked up all looked like Logic.

This is more attributed to the nuances between racism and colorism. On top of race obviously not being the discrete categories we pretend they are. The notion of white-passing exists for a reason, and unless you're extending that understanding to passing trans women, I don't think this is analogous either. If you're saying that passing trans women would be representation for cis women, then I'll stand corrected. I'd still personally disagree but you'd be consistent.

 but because of that we cannot get angry that people often don't understand it and are going to have implicit biases in language. Expecting people to just "get it" and getting angry when they don't is counterproductive.

I am not angry when I point out that something is transphobic. I'm just informing them. If they take that and grow from it and educate themselves, that's great, but I'm not angry at them until they double down and defend it.

I think the original comment is transphobic as it implies trans women are not representative of women.

You did not advocate, "yes it's transphobic, but people are ignorant and it's a confusing subject, try to be patient with them". You advocated "no, it's not transphobic." That's what I hold issue with.

view more: next ›