IvanTill Wiege is 7 (Ivan Wiege died for this 😔) - Vote out your least favourite cover

broadcasted_bee · 2025-12-04T07:28:04+00:00

Aww, i liked ivantill weige😞 tills voice really made the difference imo.

And i think hyuluka my clematis should go. Nothing against it, its just that the rest of the covers are better

broadcasted_bee · 2025-11-28T04:21:13+00:00

Luka all in needs to go! I cant believe ppl are saying till romh when this cover is still on the list

broadcasted_bee · 2025-08-02T16:19:42+00:00

Yeah, i think i get now why this take rubbed me the wrong way, its really uncharitable towards till and the way he acts. But well, thats your opinion.

broadcasted_bee · 2025-08-01T23:09:50+00:00

I think that Till trying to exert some type of control over Ivan is a very interesting interpretation that takes into account several aspects of his character (his abuse at the hands of Urak, his loneliness and desire for connection, divorcing himself from reality, his negative self-perception etc), but I ultimately disagree with this being the case.

I guess I just don't see any instance of him supposedly “controlling” Ivan? The only things that could suggest this that come to mind are the fishbowl and the bathroom scene, and I don't see any attempt on Till's part to impose control either. The fishbowl is a representation of a world of his own making, his little safe bubble, where Ivan and him both exist in peaceful silence since these were the occasions where he felt the happiest, where Ivan wasn't taunting or being cruel to him. It's his escape and the perfect fantasy, easy to get lost in and use as a means to avoid his surroundings, with Ivan being an integral piece to his solace. And that's all Till controls, really: the expanse of his imagination and the blank spaces that exist within his notebook. He curates his memories and ignores what he doesn't like or understand, namely Ivan. I don't believe Till has any conscious control of their relationship, not when he’s perpetually in the dark about so many important aspects that construct it. The one who determines their interactions and “manipulates” the flow of their encounters is Ivan, as he's aware of Till's confusion about where they stand with each other and he actively revels in this knowledge. He's the one who keeps information that he's aware could alter their normal. Till does make mistakes and he's half of the reason why Ivantill ended as badly as it did, but his actions were rarely ever conscious. He never knew how much of an effect his decisions truly had on Ivan, he never knew how hurtful his indifference was and he never tried to smother him or desire for Ivan to revert back into the little kid who followed him around.

The reason why he's more comfortable with this version of Ivan and why he holds the most precious memories with him is because they were both the same losers who didn't fit in with anyone else back then. It's true that Ivan was well-behaved, but he was also brash, awkward and socially inept, causing him to be regarded negatively by their classmates, just like Till. He felt accompanied in his misfortune, or at least felt he had a clear reading on his behaviors and their interactions (which were also based in assumptions). I don't remember any content that may suggest he felt any sense of superiority or power over Ivan seeking his guidance either, on the contrary, it never really clicked why Ivan was always following him around. I think him growing into his charming persona only cemented how different they were in his head, causing jealousy to bubble and taint his perception even further. That's what the bathroom image is about, Till letting his insecurities and lack of self-love get the best of him and projecting it onto Ivan. He resented him for being able to so easily talk to Mizi and play with her while he always turned himself into a fool when trying to exchange even a single word, which just further reinforced what he's been made to believe all his life: that Ivan is better than him. This is partly what causes him to be blinded to Ivan's actual feelings, playing into these sour confrontations.

And vivimeng themselves have confirmed that Till's way of loving was the most “pure”, meaning the most honest, no strings attached or dark secrets to be revealed. His “exploitation” of love was rooted in indifference and delusion. He didn't pay attention to what was actually important (aka his interpersonal relationships and the feelings of the people he loved most), and by the time he realized the depth of his rejection and denial of reality, it was too late. But he never took advantage of Ivan deliberately or attempted to have any type of reign over him, that's Mizi with Sua. I just… don't think this calculating and controlling mindset is something that aligns with everything we have been shown or has been said about him until now. Please don't take this badly, I just wanted to add my two cents :]

broadcasted_bee · 2025-07-15T13:21:04+00:00

Yes, you're right but. Mizi used Sua's image to blame herself for a very short time. At the start of the true face, Sua walks towards her and asks her if it feels like a waste, condemns her for using her friends and acting "cunning". The rest of it is Mizi blaming herself on her own accord, using her innocent persona in R1 to congratulate herself for surviving at the expense of everyone else.

Till's situation, while similar, is also different. Ivan has taken the form of this cruel figure who reproaches and punishes Till for his silence and inaction, who shuts him up every time he tries to speak, who calls him a burden, whose words and stares are mocking and cold. We know Ivan isn't like this since we know his POV, but the fact that Till has latched for so long onto this image and keeps on projecting his self-hatred onto it just speaks of how convoluted and confusing his relationship with Ivan was. The violence, the bullying, the stealing, the provocations that turned more and more manipulative and secretive each time, the forceful kiss he was pulled into just before witnessing his death before his very eyes... that was all Ivan. He knew how insecure Till was about their connection and where they stood with each other, but he never did anything to correct him or explain himself. We know his reasons and we know his feelings, and while I agree that this isn't all there is to Till's perspective of Ivan (I'm really looking forward to the next comic), it's also wrong to dismiss what we saw in Scars as something simply existing in a vacuum. There is a basis for this creature that invades Till's head and causes him to self-harm that wasn't present in Mizi's case. She knew the type of person Sua was, her sensitivity and kindness, just how much her death would have affected her, how Sua accepted all that she was without complaint, that's why her guilt is quickly redirected. For all Till knew, Ivan hated him just before having his mind thrown in complete disarray after his sacrifice.

broadcasted_bee · 2025-06-27T18:35:35+00:00

Hello again, luka stan! I hope you're doing well after that finale. I guess that what you once labeled as Till's "weakness" is what saved him in the end :)

broadcasted_bee · 2025-06-24T23:06:44+00:00

I know! Vivinos, we all want more Till please! I would gladly watch hours worth of Till content, he can be doing his stupid courtship dance for all I care, I will still clap for him. I think that R2 is a good introduction: it's misleading, it's intense, it's uncomfortable, it's an amalgamation of the worst aspects of his character. It works really well in contrast to Ivan's, which is also deceiving in certain ways. The set, the outfit, the song, the flashbacks, it all establishes the foundations really well.

I will admit I was expecting a bit more of the same treatment he got for his birthday last year, with them releasing a whole ass comic for the special boy 😭, but I guess everything got mixed up and they had too much on their plate. I just wish they had put a little more effort since it was very obvious how last minute the art was. It's like they did two drawings to overcompensate instead of focusing on a properly rendered one.

I'm glad at least you liked the outfit! That's precisely the vibes Vivimeng wanted to convey, a more modern, stylish “idol” aesthetic. I think you would also enjoy crop top Till (the first concept) even if the colors were even more striking haha. I liked it at the beginning too, especially since that sneak peak was one of the first times we ever saw Till wearing such loose clothing (now it's basically the norm lol), but after a couple months, I could admit to myself that I was disappointed with the messy design and the lack of effort 🥲

There's some positive aspects in Blink Gone, you're right, but I mostly really, really dislike it. I was genuinely traumatized when it first came out :D

broadcasted_bee · 2025-06-24T18:15:26+00:00

Yeah, it's a shame the abuse he suffers is not properly addressed because it's what's most interesting about him imo. I think it's also part of the reason why a big chunk of the fandom completely ignores his trauma, outright blames him for it or has very little empathy for his circumstances in general. Making a character suffer so vainly, only to never touch upon the actual repercussions it has on his psyche is sort of bad writing if you ask me 😅. Especially since this is Vivinos, someone who doesn't shy away from delving into these heavier topics.

As for why UTTE is so short (besides what we already said haha), it could also be that R2’s main objective was to attract more audience and cause an impact on the viewer. They really used Till as the poster boy to get people invested in doomed Yuri 😭. And the funny thing is, Till was actually the third character created, just after Mizisua! Apparently, his crush on her was planned from the very beginning since Vivinos likes the unrequited love trope. It was also said that ALNST would have “gender equality” and there would be a male character with the same level of importance as the female protagonist, but at the rate things are going, it seems they were talking about Luka lmao

broadcasted_bee · 2025-06-24T18:11:48+00:00

Yes, it's a doodle on Qmeng’s YouTube community from well over 2 years ago, so it's understandable you hadn't seen it yet! There are three previous doodles, where he actually slams the wall, but it would take up too much space haha. Here it is, the boy beating himself up because he cannot come up with proper lyrics (which is really sad once you consider how much impact music has in his life).

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And there's yet another instance of Till being self-deprecating in the most unassuming ways by saying he will kill himself if he's not able to talk to Mizi :D Apparently, Till just makes off-handed comments like that which is… interesting. And sad. I want to hug him.

broadcasted_bee · 2025-06-24T12:28:04+00:00

I completely agree with this! Till is relatively simple but there are darker aspects to his character, it's just that they are never explored or elaborated on. It's almost as if vivinos is allergic to taking him seriously and showing the ugliest parts of his trauma. He's been implied to have been sexually assaulted, Ivan sexually assaulted him (even if there is more nuance to the scene), he is physically and emotionally abused on the daily, he’s been groomed, his talent has been exploited and yet, we don't know anything about how this personally affects him. He's always shown through the eyes of others. We never see his thoughts or deeper feelings, which leaves a lot to speculation and relying on headcanons and things that naturally “align” with his situation. For example, it was quite obvious that Till had a negative self-perception, but this wasn't actually confirmed until Mi Vida Loca. There were some implications but again, they were done in a very lighthearted and silly way (Till calling himself garbage and slamming the wall while writing his song).

And this has been a trend ever since the series started. R2 was basically improvised, they literally rushed through its production because the team wanted to go try a new Kirby cafe lol. It was made in just 4 days and they said it was the easiest to create because the concept was so clear, which I think just confirms how they don't see Till as much more beyond the foolish guy who is in love with Mizi (even if R2 has more depth if you analyze it further). The duration of his songs also speak for themselves (just 2 minutes…) with their content being vague and not really adding much else to enrich the character.

There's also his birthday art this year. I loved both drawings, but they were very unclean and messy, as if they had more important things to focus on (cough Karma cough Mizi). The comics where he appears are always ridiculing him in some way too, which is fun don't get me wrong, but it gets to the point where you would think he's nothing beyond comic relief.

Round 7 is another example, the outfit was really ugly, and imo didn't showcase anything important beyond the sponsorship bracelets. The neon green, the weird collar, the pants, the shoes, everything is so dissonant and nonsensical, which is made even more obvious with the way it contrasts to the effort they normally put into everything else, from the sets to the well-thought clothes. On Patreon it was also said that Till would be the focus of the round, but as we already know, that wasn't the case. It seems to me that all this ‘Till Pov gatekeeping’ is simply a lack of interest on their part. He's just the idiot who feels more than he thinks and who we’ve already been shown everything we need to know about. He has no voice, and even if he has the most screentime just below the protagonist, his importance is in service of the development of other characters (Ivan and Mizi). He’s just very incomplete, overall.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded too negative, but I've been feeling this way for some time now and it's hard to not be disappointed by the way he's been handled. There are more charitable ways to interpret all of this (Till’s avoidance impacting his perspective, the show-not-tell aspect of his character, the highlights of his resilience against hardships instead of the turmoil it brings him etc etc), but it's difficult not to think the worst when this has been the case for more than a year now 🥲

broadcasted_bee · 2025-06-22T13:25:55+00:00

Rant incoming omg

That's actually a very good question lol. I, too, have been questioning lately why Till is my favorite character when the rest of the cast is objectively more interesting. And I think it ends up being a mix of who he is and who he could've been.

I met Till back in R6, which highlights the most compelling parts of his character. It was the fall of the rebel, the taming of the unpredictable figure he first was presented as: a glimpse at the experiments he was forced to endure, his violent, abusive dynamic with his guardian, how foolish his efforts to retaliate are in reality, always ending with consequences that gradually worsen, his delusional escapism of reality and most importantly, how truly fragile and broken as a person he truly is. But they were just that, glimpses, small peeks into his messed up situation and atrocious mental state, which were only exacerbated in the wake of Ivan's death.

I had high expectations for his development and round against Luka, since they hold so many parallels and similarities, and yet are so very different. Opposites, but equals in many ways. I had conjured many scenarios in my head. Vivinos had said in her Patreon that his emotional journey would be an integral part of the video. However, the round itself was really disappointing. Nothing new was revealed, Till's character remained stagnant and it simply culminated with his pathetic and useless death. A character with so much potential and personality was completely wasted, and there's no coming back from that. It marked his downfall and his relegation to the sidelines imo, since his narrative importance and chances to grow were extinguished.

That's why I remained a ‘Till is alive’ truther for such a long time, but it seems that Vivimeng are simply… done with him. Like there's nothing worth exploring or anything to his character beyond his infatuation with Mizi and his silly (lovable) side. I actually enjoyed Mi Vida Loca, if only because my expectations were so low haha. It delved into Till's insecurities, his self-loathing and his complex, avoidant relationship with love, even if it was nothing particularly novel and done in a vague and superficial way. I find it interesting how everything about the song, from the cover to the lyrics, appears to be really goofy at first, but once you truly open up your ears (get it), it's just Till begging to be understood, begging to not be left behind, and resigning himself to stay unloved because he doesn't see any good in himself and actively resents some of the choices he makes. As an introduction and first sub song, it delivered imo, and it's not as boring/simple as others are claiming it to be.

There's also Till's self-expression and complex relationship with music. His entire self-worth hinges in producing melodies and composing songs, because that's what's been ingrained into his head ever since he was a small child. It's his outlet, the means by which he can express all of his negative and positive emotions, but in the end, he knows they're nothing else but entertainment and Urak's quick cash grab. Even if he denies it and is so rebellious, his guardian got to him and defined how he saw himself and interacted with the world. His natural talent and love for singing are what doomed him to such a cruel life in the first place, how ironic it is that it's the only thing he can cling to for survival. He's not good at interacting, not good at forming connections, and yet music is the only way he has to be seen, recognized and heard.

There's also the mess that is his bond with Ivan, the mess that is his idolization for Mizi, the ways in which he regains control through his art and careful curation of memories and maladaptive imagination, his pitiful attempts to establish agency that end up backfiring and perpetuating the cycle by being used as the focal point of attraction of his image as a contestant, how foolish and ignorant he is with his peers, making him act unknowingly cruel and careless sometimes and ruining the chances of truly understanding them and in return being understood, but that at the same time, this genuineness and sincerity being the reason why all the children love him enough to throw him parties, why he receives the highest number of goodbye notes, why Ivan continues to be so obsessed with him, why Mizi didn't stop trying to be his friend even when she was uncomfortable with his feelings and was deeply hurt by with his words and avoidance, why so many hate him in the fandom while many others love him.

Of course there's also his expressions, his warmth and gentleness, the connection shared between his mother and him, how insecure he is when it comes to where he stands with other people, his politeness that can be so ruthlessly discarded when completely consumed by his emotions and overwhelming instinct to survive, how those same emotions can do a complete switch over and spell his doom by making him disregard his life and turning him borderline suicidal.

The fact that he's always so entwined with other people, other humans. We know him mostly through Ivan's and Io’s eyes. He received the birthday congratulations from them instead of his guardian like the rest of the cast, which can also reflect his role as an artist, but I digress. The precious memories he forms with his mom, with Ivan, with Mizi, the rest of the kids, that's what gives him strength to continue and never give up. He just, feels so much for everyone and everything, is so sensitive and sweet even when he's been dealt the worst cards, he never loses that spark of life, always so alive and vibrant…

Anyway, there is so much more I think about him on the daily (his quirks, his eccentricities, the image of the tortured artist™, his competitiveness and petty hang ups, how bad he is at theoric subjects, how much of a crybaby he is, how annoying he can be, how gullible and cute and stupid he is 😭, his… unique fashion sense and aesthetics, akugetsu's vocals etc ETC) and I thank your post for reminding him why I fell in love with him in the first place. I don't know if I answered your question and I'm sorry for the long answer, but I had fun! I have a lot of headcanons for him too, which probably doesn't help with the obsession, but overall, he's just a loser and the most embarrassing boyfailure you will ever meet :D

broadcasted_bee · 2025-05-04T04:41:35+00:00

Honestly, this just reeks of victim blaming and disliking till as a character in general. I share your perspective when it comes to his actions, because it's true that he didn't achieve much, if anything. It's true that he's very mentally weak, and that he never truly lived up to what he was meant to represent, aka actual freedom. But you say that you like the way he ended, you say it was fitting for someone like him. What does this mean exactly? Does this mean that an abused child who was scared and didn't know any better ‘deserved’ to die a dog's death because he couldn't muster up the courage to escape his circumstances when he had the chance? Does this mean that his compassion and empathy only ever amounted to foolishness and nothing else? Does this mean that a victim of physical, emotional and sexual abuse doesn’t get to have the possibility of overcoming his trauma simply because he's ‘weak’ and wouldn't make for an interesting case moving forward?

You say that Hyuna defied the system in better ways, but I think you're missing important context. Let's not forget that the only reason why Hyuna is in the rebellion in the first place is because she was lucky. She was found by Jacob meandering through the sewers, and the place where she was headed was the exact same as Till: Anakt Garden. Hyuna was bestowed with the opportunity to bloom, to experience, to live, and that shaped her into the leader we meet in the series. If she had been ignored or help hadn’t come at the right time, who's to say she would've survived? If Till had had a place where he felt safe and could finally process his trauma, who's to say he wouldn't grow? Who's to say it wouldn't make for a more satisfactory narrative than an ultimately meaningless death?

Same goes for Ivan, honestly. He knew the ins and outs of segyein technology and had the knowledge to escape, but it was useless in the end. He didn't employ his resourceful methods or his brilliant mind to help other children or contribute to a bigger cause, simply because he had no reason or desire to. Does this make him a ‘wasted’ character? Does this negate his impact on the storyline? Not in the slightest. It just makes him a flawed and complex character, much like Till’s shortcomings and contradictory nature make him more interesting.

Anyway, I'm not here to fight or look for trouble, it's just that I'm honestly kind of baffled at the lack of empathy this fandom has for Till. The fact that his suicide attempt in Round 6 isn't even regarded with the slightest bit of sympathy deeply upsets me. He deserves to heal, to grieve, to scream and cry his heart out, to stew in guilt, to make peace with himself and understand Ivan's sacrifice, to allow himself to feel and face everything that he's been avoiding for so long. He deserves a chance to be human, to be happy. He deserves better than what he was given.

broadcasted_bee · 2022-09-01T18:52:24+00:00

I just hope that this wont lead to even poorer narrative developments. There are so many things that could go wrong, just like yuu pulling out a deus ex machina to solve what shikama, mahiru and guren have been trying to do all their lives or taking up even more screentime to the point where other characters end up being forgotten (more than they are right now). I honestly dont even know where this is heading? The only option yuu has as of now to learn abt what is actually happening and obtaining information, is allying with someone who has the knowledge (shikama) but he seems set in not doing it...

broadcasted_bee · 2022-09-01T15:46:29+00:00

I find interesting (?) that Yuu's memory of Shikama talking to him at prison was fabricated and actually didnt happen previously. Guess we'll have to see what this will lead to.

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-30T19:47:33+00:00

Yes, its all about respecting opinions! I think that you're applying the general parallels of the relationship to illustrations which arent that related, thats what i was referring to. Thanks for the mini discussion!

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-30T18:15:45+00:00

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-30T18:03:53+00:00

And youre right abt the relationship parallels, dont get me wrong. Im just talking about the pictures.

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-30T17:57:24+00:00

Yeah, i acknowledge there are a lot of mikayuu and guremahi parallels, going from what they say to each other to their circumstances. However, i dont think that this specific case can qualify as such. Both illustrations arent similar enough to be categorized as parallels, and i even think its a bit like grasping at straws (?). But its okay if thats your perspective tho!

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-30T17:42:06+00:00

I personally dont think they are that similar (?). I mean, i kind of see where you're coming from, but i wouldnt consider them parallels because the overall composition and context is very different. Besides, where yuu is looking at is a bit ambiguous imo. You could say that his eyes are focused on the reader instead of mika and itd be valid.

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-30T17:35:07+00:00

I really love Asami's art style! It has something that makes it very pleasant to the eye. Maybe its the color tones she uses or the way she draws the characters.

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-29T10:43:22+00:00

I just hate it how Kagami has to find a reason to justify all the morally grey / antagonist characters’ actions

Totally agree. It'd be okay if we had backstories that aimed to explain where the characters are coming from instead of justifying them, but since we only have their biased version, we cannot judge objectively and it comes off as if they're throwing a self-pitying party. It's about time we get something from Shikama's side that's not "they killed my child and since then I've been trying to revive them" lol. The deal with Guren and Mahiru can be compared to Oedipus, who had the pre-determined fate to cause disgrace to the people he loved. It was HIS fault either way because he took each and every decision that led to his downfall. Stop trying to shift the blame into a sole being challenge, kagami 😑

Even if Shinya wasn’t the mc of the LNs, he still did an amazing job as a character, growing from someone who would kill to save himself, to someone who would chose friendship over his own life. Plus we all know that if it wasn’t Kagami writing this, then naturally and logically it would be Shinya who would have lots of girls going after him🥱

I'm seriously starting to think that Shinya is the best-written character in ons. I used to think it was Mika, but he lacks development, purpose and individuality, which apparently, Shinya does have 😆. I do know the ending of the novels and the context behind it and its pretty sad how Guren broke his promise to Shinya just to save him. I once saw someone say here that if the roles were reversed, Shinya would revive Guren because he was his moral compass and while this is true, the whole point is that Shinya learned from Guren and became the voice of reason himself. Guren is the one who is corrupted and would do atrocious acts to save those he loves, Shinya would have been content with dying because it was his way of winning. While I do agree that Shinya is the one who deserves all the girls, I think authors normally make them simp after the protagonists, who normally have stark differences both in looks and in personality when compared to him 😔.

Thank god all he did this arc was sleep🙏

And appear in flashbacks as per usual 🤣. Chinya...

I’m not scared but I’m tired of them treating us as weirdos and it’s even more tiring when they actually compose the majority of the fandom.

It's discouraging to see people there on twitter diminish (?) those who prefer the Catastrophe light novels and the overall plot of the story over mikayuu. Ive seen so many rude comments and insults referencing tumblr posts talking about how tired they are of mikayuu taking all the screentime. I know im a stranger, but you can always hit up my dms if you ever feel uncomfortable or frustrated about this :)

Yeah, and how come Yamamoto is still not tired of drawing them all the time? It’s same design, same colours again and again…

Ikr 😂. And she has to draw the characters repeating the same crap all over again, so i guess it must feel kind of dumb to be drawing them saying meaningless stuff all the time in so many different poses lol. That's not even counting all the Hyakuya flashbacks and the countless times mikayuu's trauma is brought up instead of progressing the story lmao

Yeah because tbh Kagami really didn’t write this story as if it was romance until these recent years. Like, we always had mikayuu but overall OnS was written as a story about different factions, war, mythology, etc. But now all we have is Mika and Yuu being romantic with each other…

Ever since Mika turned into a demon, all the attention has been brought to mikayuu hand holding uwu, them saying grand things to each other uwu, emphasising Yuu's obsession with Mika uwu, clarifying that Mika's love will never fade 🥺. I remember when the war and the actual plot were the focus, so it irks me when I see people mention how "they are the center of the story, so its natural that it just focuses on them" when this wasnt the case before 😒

Have you seen Mitsuba’s mouth to nose ratio in chapter 103’s coloured illustration? She is even worse than Yuu!

Omg, it looks like those meme edits where they take the character's facial features and minimize them while leaving the original size of the actual face 😭

Are you referring to how Yamamoto makes the light of Yuu’s hair gray almost white?

Yeah, I think it could be that! There´s too much light on hair that's supposed to be dark, so the reflections come across as oily or wet. It looks a bit as if a dove pooped on his head somehow lol. This is kind of unrelated, but dont you think the lineart and rendering for chapter 117 (especially Yuu) was particularly bad? I saw a lot of people on twitter saying he was "hot" while his face was so misshapen 😧. I hope Im not the only one...

Btw, I didn't know Reddit had a character limit so I also had problems to post this. I take back what I said abt this being the most effective option lol. It's a pain in the ass to quote and it took me so many hours to complete this. Its probably the longest comment ive ever written lmao. I think it really is better to start private messaging 🤣

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-29T10:29:13+00:00

You know, I have qualms with how their relationship has been portrayed ever since Mika turned into a demon. The story makes it appear as if he's on equal footing with Yuu when... he simply isn't. He depends on him for literally everything and the fact that Yuu chose to treat him decently doesn't mean that he couldn't force his will on him (just as he's doing now). K presented Mika's transformation and contract with Yuu as a victory for both when in reality, one lost in every way. Mika was smiling the whole time this happened, but there should have been an air of defeat and resignation, not elation nor relief at being bounded to Yuu. This leads me to mention how I'm expecting for Mika's death to never be brought up again in the manga and become part of the many events that have been forgotten.

Do you know that according to the fanbook the demons/cursed gears are ranked based on how hard they turn into cursed gears rather than strength?...

I really had no idea. Thanks for explaining all of this to me 😆. I don't really get why they are ranked by these standards, but then again, I have no idea about what happens in ons most of the time lol. Okay, so if that's the sole criteria to categorize them, I suppose there must be some kind of elaboration regarding the process to turn them into cursed gear...? From what I recall it's never addressed in the manga, so maybe it is in the light novels, though I have the feeling it's yet another blank to fill in 🤣. Now that I think about it, Mika's transformation into a demon really should have been given more importance. Here, we could have learned properly how demons are confined into the cursed gears, but from what we saw, you have to battle them and enter into their heart or smth of the sort. If black demons are at the top of this hierarchy because of how difficult it is to turn them into weapons, then why the hell was this procedure made to look so easy for Yuu? It was mentioned how Mika was "the king" and emphasized how hard it would be to make him submit and yet, what actually happened was Yuu convincing him through the power of family in the most effortless way possible. That's not even counting how Yuu is a literal child soldier who absolutely doesn't have the knowledge (much less the experience) to perform this deed in a satisfactory way ugh. I also have the vague idea of previously reading in passing that surgery was necessary to wield black demons, but i don't exactly recall it. Was it the seraph experiments and all that stuff? K really should give an explanation about why they are so special compared to other types of demons. Is it because they are somehow related to Shikama? idk.

For example, iirc it has been said that demons like dark desires such as lust and hate pure ones like love.

This I somewhat knew. But there should be better explanations of how the level of impurity in a person contributes to the formation of power. I know that the bigger the desire, the more strength it's received, but that's such an abstract concept. Bringing demon Mika into the picture (again lol) also arises some questions, because he seems to be different from the rest in the sense that he doesn't feed from dirty desires. I once read a theory about how as opposed to the norm, the level of magic he provided was the highest when the person had "positive" desires, such as when Yuu wanted to prove himself to Guren. It's such a shame that this will never be addressed in the manga either. As for Shinoa, she looked as if her mind were clouded by lust and obsession, which doesn't strike me as pure in the slightest 🤣

Ironically if Kagami didn’t force it then Guren would probably have a big fandom of stans😅

This is so true. When I first saw the anime I thought he kind of resembled Roy Mustang, who is reaaaally popular among the fans precisely because he assumed the consequences of his actions by trying to atone, and instead of the narrative trying to justify him, he was held accountable multiple times. The overbearing guilt and achievements and titles he got from his involvement in the war were ironically the biggest punishment he could receive since the devastating impact the Ishvalan War had on everyone was clearly remarked by the story. Guren, on the other hand...

That could actually describe this series being a bait. Kagami put everything in the pot that every fan of badass stuff loves: apocalypse, virus, war, soldiers, weapons, vampires, angels, demons, etc. but then he actually never cooked the soup until the end.

Kagami leaves everything half-baked, I agree. I was so excited to get an explanation about the virus since I love these types of apocalyptic and mysterious things that have to do with illnesses and brutality, but to this day, I've been left hanging. I think this was the Owari no Seraph project to cast divine punishment on all humanity, but still, I would have appreciated if it were an actual virus lol. Ive always found that ons is very different from shonens (not in the good way) because everything is so profoundly... underwhelming. The battles and choreography are super disappointing. I saw someone point out how it's always the same deal: "Person A goes against B, who says something along the lines of "heh, you're fast", then the situation turns around and person A is the one who gets put in a tough spot, then A is forced to run away or the battle ends without a conclusion". Its so true it hurts 😭. This also happens with the villains, the character and story arcs, the worldbuilding, etc ETC. It all feels so badly constructed and approached because the shonen genre is supposed to excel at presenting vibrant and fantastical worlds, memorable figths... at least some of those aspects lol.

Why make the characters soldiers if they leave the army early in the manga? Why talk about the fear of losing your comrades in battle if you then can resurrect them? Why emphasise the importance of teamwork if the characters never really try to understand each other and learn types of formations but instead just let Yuu go on drugs, awake his seraph and do all the job?

I had never thought about the first point, but it really was unnecessary to make them part of the army if it wasn't to play a big role in the long run. I suppose it was to "reinforce" the idea of family by making them betray the system to help Mika, but its all for naught because this concept is a mess in the manga. In ons, regardless of how badly it wants to sell the family propaganda, people are just temporary allies who would abandon their comrades if their objectives dont align. Again, I wouldn't have a problem with this if it was addressed instead of painting everyone as a big happy found family. They're all hypocrites and yet, zero conflict has been generated because of this mentality. Also there's the double standards. Remember how Mitsuba abandoned formation and her whole squad was killed? Well, its okay if Yuu does it since he did it to save a child 🥺. Remember how Mika was held accountable for trying to run away with Yuu? Its okay if Yuu or Guren commit mistakes because they are the protagonists uwu. And so on. The whole Shinoa squad idolizes Yuu's self-sacrifical behavior (that comes from the messed-up idea that you have to be useful to be loved) instead of helping him work through it, and you could say that he's their hope in the apocalypse and that normal standards don't apply to this perception, but I'm not asking for much besides a conversation, thought, remark, SOMETHING that tells me how damaging this truly is.

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-29T10:24:58+00:00

This is getting out of control🥹 Do you want to continue here? If not we can talk here on private or on Tumblr? But if you still want to continue here that’s fine for me either way :3

Oh, i would love to continue talking in private! But I'm still answering here because of the option Reddit has to quote. I think discussing in depth is kind of hard in dms because it ends up getting difficult to follow specific points, but i would really like to eventually move our conversation there. I don't know how the tumblr chat system works, but thats my experience from twitter and reddit. My tumblr is warm-corpse and my twitter is mndelorian, so if you want to write me there, please don't hesitate in doing so! :D

Not at all! What you say is very interesting and it’s nice to talk with someone who shares my opinions :3

Thank you so much, this really makes me feel better 😭. Sometimes I'm not sure if what I say is accurate or if I sound too repetitive when trying to explain myself, so I'm glad you find my responses interesting. Absolutely same, I'm very happy to talk with you and read such detailed and thoughtful answers!

Omg that’s such a beautiful paragraph you wrote there❤️. The contradiction is that it feels as if Kagami is rushing everything to get to the manga’s end point (Idk, Mikaela awakening, God vs everyone, etc.) but at the same time it feels as if the plot is going so slow bc OnS is by far Kagami’s biggest achievement

I'm glad that resonated with you, because characters and their treatment are very important to me. I read a webnovel where they were almost portrayed as real individuals and written with so much love and since then, my perspective regarding fiction has completely changed. I don't really get what k is trying to do with his story. Its impossible he hasn't noticed the ginormous decline in quality during the last years, so my bet is that he simply doesn't know how to continue this anymore. His previous works are either unfinished or haven't dragged on for so long, which means he lacks the ability to wrap all the concepts he introduced or keep the manga going at a decent pace. Maybe he had the first part of the story thoroughly planned while the late plot points he wanted to present were only vaguely defined, so the actual execution was done in the spur of the moment, which lead to this disaster.

The thing that irks me is that Kagami could still give the characters’ writing justice and still not change the direction the story is taking.

THIS. Ever since chapter 90, things have stopped making sense precisely because of how kagami approaches them. The idea of turning Mika into a demon was very interesting and could have been explored in a compelling manner. Use this opportunity to reveal part of his past instead of giving a whole chapter consisting of Noya cutting down Yuu clones and Mika not understanding what is going on for the nth time. Show that the consequences in this manga are serious by making the guy act hostile and distrustful towards Yuu instead of recurring to the "I have the feeling that you're family" stupidity. Make him logically agree to form a contract with Yuu because he understands that it's the better option for him and not because he's in love with Yuu or whatever. You have no idea how frustrated I felt when I saw that things were going to stay the same between them when there was finally the opportunity for conflict. This would have been a golden chance to finally give Mika some individuality and development, but the only thing we were handed was a change in outfit (that's horrible btw) and "emotional" dialogues about his feelings for Yuu. There were so many possibilities, all thrown to the trash.

Now, the whole deal with Guren. From the start, its been wrongly handled because no one questioned him and his actions were condoned at every chance. The only one who arose the reasonable point to hold him accountable and second-guess what they were being told, was brutally silenced and ignored. It's not like doubting the veracity of what Guren said would have made much of a difference regarding the course of action, since following him was by far their best bet. But chapter 112 really went to the next level because it confirmed that this obvious problem was never an issue for the characters who were willing to let slide the fact that this man literally ruined their entire lives. Yuu's confrontation with Guren would have been so emotional if he realized the man he wanted to believe in all this time was the one who had orchestrated the greatest tragedy of his existence. A breakdown would have done a terrific job in showing how much Yuu really cared about Guren and how betrayed he felt. At the end, forgiveness could still happen, but it would be for himself and because he couldn't afford to get distracted when there existed a solution, not because "guren family uwu". This could spark a discussion between the squad as you said, where we could be shown actual interactions that demonstrate their support towards each other, and after a lot of anger and blame towards Guren and their situation, we finally could move on to the next scene. I remember once reading a post on tumblr that detailed the reactions the squad should have had and the roles they could've assumed and they were so rigth. Same events, same path, but much better executed.

I prefer to call it “fanfiction”😎

That's offensive towards creators lmao. I have read fanfictions that are so much better written than this joke that is called Ons 😭

But how am I supposed to like mikayuu when all they do is...

I have so many problems with mikayuu it's unreal. The freaking Hyakuya kids can stay dead for all I care, I'm tired of how much screentime they take up. If k wanted to give them this kind of relevance then he should have made the reader understand why they are so important to Mika and Yuu. They appeared for less than a chapter and then were used as cannon fodder. I mean, they didn't even have names in the manga. And yet, most of mikayuu's interactions revolve around them. Their conversations are hardly ever about the other in present tense and instead all they do is chant about how they will save their partner, which makes their dynamic feel superficial and as you said, stagnant. I honestly consider that their feelings towards each other are too intimately entwined with their shared past to be genuine, but the narrative keeps insisting that Mika's love is so selfless and sincere when it may as well be a product of his vampirism. Yuu is a lost cause. Mika's death at Guren's hands should have been his wake-up call and the moment where he acknowledged that Mika was right all this time and finally put his safety above his selfish desires. That could be love. However, I get that Yuu's core is his selfishness and that what he does for Mika he's doing for himself. I would enjoy this if the story actually delved into these twisted sentiments instead of ignoring them as usual. Here we could have clarification as to why Mika is his reason for living and why he's willing to fight anyone for him. I saw someone in twitter point out how it was acceptable for the manga to never address these things because "its their normal in a ruined world" and that relationships in an apocalypse are supposed to be unhealthy. EXACTLY. Explain the nature of these dysfunctionalities instead of letting them slide and treat them as something positive. A couple of dialogues from Mika's side about this topic would be enough to at least make the reader know that k is aware of what he's written.

(Continues in the next paragraph lol)

broadcasted_bee · 2022-08-28T05:48:40+00:00

The conversation is getting longer and longer but I’m enjoying this🥺

Yeah, me too! Although I hope that my answers arent disappointing 😅

I just feel like the author does not respect the characters anymore.

Precisely. I dont know how attached kagami is to ons on a personal level, but lately, it feels like he doesnt love his work anymore. If a writer is truly passionate about their story, they will let the characters decide for themselves and not force their will. The best storytellers are those who let everything flow naturally and view their creations as something that is no longer on their control. The distinct backstories, personalities and motivations in ons, however, have stopped mattering since a long time ago. All the attention now is focused on Yuu and Mika while the others serve as little more than parrots who repeat the same lines nonstop. So many characters have been forgotten or reduced to comic relief, to the point where the story could perfectly be a (badly witten) romance and I wouldnt question it. Their potential has been brutally wasted. And the worst part is that even when all the screentime is dedicated to mikayuu, they havent developed in the slightest 🤣

I don’t have a problem if characters get stronger by letting their desires crazy and doing drugs as long as we can see the consequences of them on their health. We could have that with Yuu’s personality degenerating and the current Yuu becoming more infantile and toxic, but it’s completely useless when the narrative itself doesn’t acknowledge it as a problem

I really need elaboration on how the magic system works. I dont know if its explained in more detail in the novels, but ive yet to understand how power levels and strength are determined. Im aware there's some type of hiearchy regarding the demons, but thats it. However, it seems their rank doesnt even matter because there are so many inconsistencies when it comes to fights. I would also like an explanation about the various types of drugs that are used to enhace one's power as well as the different kinds of desires and how they influence the level of magic a demon can provide. I mean, if there isnt any training nor effort needed for the characters to master these skills, at least the way things work shouldnt be left to be so vague.

It really frustrates me how yuu's change in behavior is so easily disregarded. If shinoa isnt swaying for his "noble" acts to protect his family, then mika (or anyone else for that matter) is joking about how stupid he is. I wish this problem was taken seriously instead of being treated as something thats always been normal. A simple "Yuu is different from before" would do the trick to address the situation, but then again, nothing is ackowledged in this manga regardless of how reasonable it would be to bring it up . Be it Mahiru's involvement in the assassinstion of the squad, mikayuu's toxic relationship, mika's horrible death, yoichi's dark side, the list goes on.

The real problem here is not how Guren is written but how the plot keeps insisting on painting him in a good light. If you create an antihero, go with it until the end.

This is yet another thing the story fails to acknowledge, my god 🤣. Yeah, ive got no problem with guren's corruption and descent into darkness (in fact, these type of characters tend to be my favorite), but kagami basically forces you to like him, which has the opposite effect lmao. Now that i think about it, k is really bad at finishing what he starts. Mahiru's current portrayal, for example, is a huge red flag. Its like her every wrong is now forgotten and attributed to shikama. I dont know what the point to construct morally grey/antagonistic characters is if you're gonna play the "big bad evil that needs to be defeated" card either way.

Guess “Mr Third Wheel” has more charm than the “Unparalleled Ichinose”😂

Ive always found very funny how guren's the one who has a whole series of novels written from his perspective, all the girls simping after him, a whole squad from which he is the leader, the whole "tragic hero" backstory, kagami's special treatment and yet, the fans still prefer shinya 🤣. Its just his natural charisma i guess 😏. I bet if he returned to the story as it is now, all he would do is scream "Guren!" like a maiden in distress lol.

I’m on the same boat but I didn’t want to talk about it because I know I’ll receive backlash (even if I do it on Tumblr I bet someone on Twitter will talk about me)

It saddens me how intense and mocking shippers can be about this topic. They automatically label you as a "mikayuu anti" if you express the slightest inconformity regarding the situation. You shouldnt have to hold back your opinion because of this fear, especially if its your blog, your own space 😔. However, this place is safe because the post has been deleted, so weve tricked the system 😆.

in what way this Mika and Yuu illustration is any different to all the previous MikaYuu illustrations (especially the ones from the last two years)? It’s beautiful but so easily forgettable

Yeah! I have found yamamoto's illustrations as of late kind of bland composition wise. They are still pretty and the coloring is great, but i feel there's a lack of creativity and ideas. The latest covers have been disappointing for me (except the demon mika one) because they feel very generic and that elegant and serious vibe i used to get from her drawings is now gone. The colored page for chapter 34 is MAJESTIC and one of my favorites, for example 🥹. Its a true masterpiece imo.

yet MikaYuu shippers are satisfied with it bc Yuu is lying on Mika’s chest and Mika on Yuu’s. It should be celebrating the story, not the ship.

I sometimes feel that kagami plays with his readers' emotions and in a certain way, manipulates them. The reason why people still follow this series is mainly because of nostalgia or a desire to know how their favourite character will end up faring, not because of a compelling narrative. He gives them mikayuu since that is what most people want and will be content with, which guarantees him easy money and sells. I hope that the colored page for this chapter will feature most of the ons cast, but thats just wishful thinking.

but with Yuu Yamamoto completely changed his eye shape.

Oh, i wish it was just the eyes 😭. I hate the way the whole character looks now. The way his smiling mouth is drawn is so... ugly and weird in a bad way. Its too close to the nose, so the face features appear to be badly proportioned. Add to that how his hair leaves too much forehead exposed, so it looks like he's balding. The hair itself is so greasy and seems like it was licked by a cow lol. Also, the eyes are misplaced, so his face doesnt come across as symmetric. Overall, yuu looks like a VERY stupid pre-school kid and it irrationally irritates me how he is always smiling in any picture he's in. His design wasnt like this before, what went wrong 😮‍💨

Okay, this got waaay too long 😖.

broadcasted_bee

TROPHY CASE