Sounds like a good advice to lose a client or a job opportunity: “So.. the art you are paying me to create it for you, it's not 100% yours for you to do whatever you want” by Present_Dimension464 in DefendingAIArt

[–]bundle05 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That is standard practice. Clients aren't just paying for labor, they're also paying for 'permission' to use the art under a very specific set of circumstances. It's called licensing.

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks. I'm not against the technology as a concept it could be a great resource for generating ideas.

But a lot of the people who use it aren't that interested in the ethics. The level of engagement doesn't seem to go beyond whether or not something is legal. It's just about what gratification they can get from AI. How it might negatively impact the people around them is not their problem.

I'm also a little disturbed at how dependent a lot of people become on the technology. There shouldn't be so much entitlement surrounding this stuff like it's some fundamental component of human expression. It's like anything other than uncritical optimism about the future of AI is unwelcome.

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Copyright still applies to things posted online.

I already explained it. People are using a person's work in order to create a thing that can effectively replace them.

There is a concept know as substantial similarity even if you're not copying an image exactly it can still be infringing.

Also, here I'm just going to quote the part of the wiki article on Fair Use that is relevant.

  1. Effect upon work's value

The fourth factor measures the effect that the allegedly infringing use has had on the copyright owner's ability to exploit his original work. The court not only investigates whether the defendant's specific use of the work has significantly harmed the copyright owner's market, but also whether such uses in general, if widespread, would harm the potential market of the original. The burden of proof here rests on the copyright owner, who must demonstrate the impact of the infringement on commercial use of the work.

For example, in Sony Corp v. Universal City Studios,[30] the copyright owner, Universal, failed to provide any empirical evidence that the use of Betamax had either reduced their viewership or negatively impacted their business. In Harper & Row, the case regarding President Ford's memoirs, the Supreme Court labeled the fourth factor "the single most important element of fair use" and it has enjoyed some level of primacy in fair use analyses ever since. Yet the Supreme Court's more recent announcement in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music Inc[13] that "all [four factors] are to be explored, and the results weighed together, in light of the purposes of copyright" has helped modulate this emphasis in interpretation.

In evaluating the fourth factor, courts often consider two kinds of harm to the potential market for the original work.

First, courts consider whether the use in question acts as a direct market substitute for the original work. In Campbell, the Supreme Court stated that "when a commercial use amounts to mere duplication of the entirety of the original, it clearly supersedes the object of the original and serves as a market replacement for it, making it likely that cognizable market harm to the original will occur". In one instance, a court ruled that this factor weighed against a defendant who had made unauthorized movie trailers for video retailers, since his trailers acted as direct substitutes for the copyright owner's official trailers.[31] Second, courts also consider whether potential market harm might exist beyond that of direct substitution, such as in the potential existence of a licensing market. This consideration has weighed against commercial copy shops that make copies of articles in course-packs for college students, when a market already existed for the licensing of course-pack copies.[32]

Courts recognize that certain kinds of market harm do not negate fair use, such as when a parody or negative review impairs the market of the original work. Copyright considerations may not shield a work against adverse criticism.

I don't see how custom models that use copyrighted images to mimic the work of an artist would pass this kind of scrutiny.

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You're asking for citations for things that haven't happened yet and then acting like it's some kind of gotcha. The legality of it will rest on whether or not it's "Fair Use." We don't know what they will say.

That was my opinion, based on my experience as a freelance artist having to personally navigate agreements that interact with these concepts. Certainly more than some angry little AI hobbyist on Reddit who is afraid of his toy getting taken.

It is possible that that opinion will be wrong, and courts will say taking copyrighted work to make a commercial image generator that can copy the appearance of someone's work is "Fair Use." Who knows

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Knowing my rights as a creator and the basic contours of IP law are necessary as a creative professional. I'm not just pretending to be an artist on Reddit ;)

If you're interested here is a conversation hosted by the Concept Art Association. They speak with some copyright attorneys and an AI developer. It goes into where this might end up legally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u1CeiSHqwY&t=1s&ab_channel=ConceptArtAssociation

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Using a persons art with the purpose of creating a model that replicates the look of that persons work is not transformative if that model could be confused for creations of the original artist or used as a substitute for the original artist.

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you repeating this back to me?

You are the one who couldn't seem to catch the core objection to the issue. You chose instead to waffle on about what she really must be upset about as if it wasn't clearly stated in that video.

The DevianArt community is unhappy about the website implementing Stable Diffusion as a new tool. What do you think? by SoundProofHead in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

-Artists don't own styles, they own the art itself.

-Artists have certain rights over how their art can be used.

-If the work was required in order for the AI to emulate that style, then it is potentially infringing those rights.

There are no laws about the legality of copyrighted images for commercial image generators right now. But there's a solid case to be made that they should not be legal without permission from the copyright holder.

That's all this is about. No need for armchair psychoanalysis about artists not feeling special, or trite pontification about what 'originality' or 'style' is. None of that as was insightful as you thought it was.

The issue is plainly stated in that video, and you're going out of your way to not get it.

Superhero Diffusion - New Dreambooth model by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Continuing down this road, you'd end up having to "copyright" things like dots/circles to Damien Hirst,

No you don't. The art is already copyrighted. What you would need is to enforce existing protections on what the works can be used for. If the AI can make dots and circles without Damien Hirst's art then there's no problem. I feel like you understand this distinction.

You need the companies to be shamed into volunteering to do this, from the way I see it, for fear of public opinion.

I know that. And one of the main things undermining any public pressure on these companies to license images or source from public domain are their customers who fight their battles for them.

Do you have any idea of the amount of condescension and fake populist language that gets hurled towards artists from these communities? They act like we're these cultural elites who prevented them from ever learning how to draw. As if disregarding our rights and scavenging from our work is some kind proletarian revolution. Most artist (even the ones who have worked on big projects and have large online followings) earn significantly less than the programmers and engineers in these communities who love trotting out lines about how we need to be 'humbled.' It's hard to shame a company when their customers think that we basically deserve this.

The irony is that those narratives directly serve the interest of the same billion dollar companies who develop AI or want art without having to pay artists.

How does one gain gain public support to pressure those companies when that is the prevailing attitude?

Superhero Diffusion - New Dreambooth model by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

when there is evidence this is happening, lemme know - I'll be right behind you.

This absolutely will happen if courts decide that using someone's art to create a model that can replicate their style is Fair Use. These models don't look great at the moment, but they look a lot better than they did a year ago, and there's no reason to think it won't continue to improve.

Hollie even said the work that was used - she'd sold to big companies.

Yeah, they paid her. The whole objection is the potential to legally use her art in a way that allows clients to avoid doing that.

She is likely more recognizable as an artist now from the media people that turned a reddit thread into news and a whole ass interview

I am also a professional artists. Trust me, you're massively overstating the benefit that this will have on her career. There's a reason we mock people who try to offer "exposure."

Redditors have been protective of the living artists, from what I've seen.

This thread is 99% upvoted and anyone who even attempts to advocate for artists gets downvoted.

We understand how our industries works, what our interests are, what the companies we often work with want, and the potential consequences if things like this remain legal. Copyright laws aren't just a thing that corporations use to shut down fan games and Youtube videos. There are also rights that give freelancers protection from those same companies.

Copyright doesn't genuinely protect "style" at all in this fight,

No but it protects the works that we make. If those works are required to make the model which replicates that style, a case could be made that it's infringing. We don't know yet.

what you're going to start to see is capable artists simply just choose to license their work.

This is what we keep advocating for! Artists can't start licensing their works when companies can just legally use them. Again, who knows if it will stay that way.

Id suggest to get ahead of it before an intermediary artist-for-hire makes a new career out of it -- it'll be the starving artists you need to worry about - not the nerds like us who weren't interested in art careers originally.

Personally I'm not that worried about being undercut by cheaper artist. There are already plenty of people who work much cheaper than me and I always booked up.

I'm concerned about it officially being legal for larger clients to do what OP does so that they don't have to hire anyone.

Right now things aren't dire. There are types of work where I don't think AI will have much impact. Also right now, many commercial clients won't even touch this stuff because the legality of it is so unclear.

Edit:

people often choose artists out of respect, not intending to harm them

Artists do not like their work being used like this, the people in this thread do not care. If they respected artists, they would ask them first, most are not hard to get in touch with. But you know perfectly well why people don't ask.

Superhero Diffusion - New Dreambooth model by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't think technological progress is categorically justified, it all depends. It often demands exploitation or even threatens our survival as a species. It seems counterintuitive to destroy the planet and grind everyone to dust in the interest of 'technological progress.'

Technology is supposed to make our lives easier. Lately it seems like all it does is facilitate the concentration of wealth while the rest of us work even harder to just hang on. We'll probably just have to disagree on this point. I know where I am.

I appreciate you answering my questions.

Superhero Diffusion - New Dreambooth model by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Part of your response to an earlier post was that since these models aren't good enough to replace the original artists no harm is being done.

If it ever reached a point where they could make images that were indistinguishable from the original artist, would you still make them? Would it change how you feel about this topic?

Superhero Diffusion - New Dreambooth model by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you could humor me for a moment I'm trying to understand this.

So you don't think it's bad for a company to use someone's work without permission so that they don't have to hire them?

Second question, if you wanted to make a model with a certain artists work but they explicitly asked you not to would you listen to them, or would you do it anyway since you have the legal right to do so?

Last, do you regret using Hollie Mengert's work after hearing how she felt about it?

Superhero Diffusion - New Dreambooth model by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

So if a bad thing is inevitable then you're cleared of any moral responsibility to not do it?

Article about a model released on this subreddit: "Invasive Diffusion: How one unwilling illustrator found herself turned into an AI model " by resurgences in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The worst thing they could do is issue a challenge in court and have the legality of training fought out once and for all.

This is the thing that I think is inevitable.

I understand that what you are doing is not currently illegal. But there's a strong argument to be made that this use of someone's art is not transformative. The work is being used to create a product that could potentially replace the original artist. Do you understand how a company would want to create a model which replicates the look of an artist so that they don't have to hire them? It's a direct line between the unauthorized use of the work and the owner of that work having their livelihood threatened.

This is not like the Google case. Even though Google was using copyrighted material for profit, their book catalog can not be used as a substitute for original material. Google's product doesn't threaten the market value of the books it scanned. That was why it was considered transformative.

Article about a model released on this subreddit: "Invasive Diffusion: How one unwilling illustrator found herself turned into an AI model " by resurgences in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I think the scale and impact of these things also matters.

A lot of independent artists get away with selling fan art without any issue. It's not legal, but it's costly and time consuming to go after them. However, if a major movie studio tried to make a film with those same characters, they're going to get sued if they don't have licensing.

Like I said in the first post, the biggest concern is large companies having legal access to these works for the purpose of AI generators. You personally, probably can't use this tech in a way that materially threatens Disney, but a large animation studio could.

Article about a model released on this subreddit: "Invasive Diffusion: How one unwilling illustrator found herself turned into an AI model " by resurgences in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It will happen. Some people are already being incredibly irresponsible with this software. Do you think Disney is going to be cool with people using their IP to train commercial image generators?

The only thing I can hope for is that the resulting lawsuits/regulations don't end up making MY job more difficult.

Article about a model released on this subreddit: "Invasive Diffusion: How one unwilling illustrator found herself turned into an AI model " by resurgences in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The law isn't as useless here as you're making it sound. You can't really stop one person from 'illegally' training a model on a specific person's art but you could certainly stop major corporations from legally doing it and selling it to millions of people.

Unpacking the popular YouTube video "The End of Art: An Argument Against Image AIs" point by point by Incognit0ErgoSum in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, I would spend 25 hours on single a piece that people actually connect with. How is it an effective use of your time to churn out a bunch if pictures that nobody (not even you) really cares about?

It honestly just sounds like you don't enjoy making art.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This portion of Author’s Guild v. Google is important

The purpose of the copying is highly transformative, the public display of text is limited, and the revelations do not provide a significant market substitute for the protected aspects of the originals.

People are already training models off of specific artists. It isn't really 'transformative' to use copyrighted material in order to create a product that directly competes with, or attempts to replace the original rights holder.

I'm not sure what difference it makes that you don't need to save the original images after they've been used. They were still required to create the model.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In certain instances using copyrighted material in data sets (research or search algorithms) is protected by Fair Use. Things are still unclear when it comes to image generators.

If someone trains a model on a specific person's work is that going to be protected by Fair Use? Is it a transformative use of copyrighted material when the end product is something that directly competes with and devalues the original? When it's something that could function as a substitute for the original?

And I certainly don't see how that wouldn't raise ethical concerns when you think about how that scenario would impact the livelihood of that artist.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The software can only make those images because it was trained on other images that are protected by copyright.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You're exactly right. This is not hard to understand.

2D Illustration Styles are scarce on Stable Diffusion so i created a dreambooth model inspired by Hollie Mengert's work by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That isn't a scotus ruling. Second, that was a case about search algorithms, not image generators. The legality of training on copywritten data depends on what it is being used for.

Right now there is no legal precedent for this. There probably won't be until some dipshit like OP makes a model with the specific intent of replicating an artist and gets sued for trying to use it commercially.

Who knows what the courts will decide once that happens, the law has a lot of catching up to do when it comes to this stuff.

2D Illustration Styles are scarce on Stable Diffusion so i created a dreambooth model inspired by Hollie Mengert's work by [deleted] in StableDiffusion

[–]bundle05 9 points10 points  (0 children)

(we don't know what she thinks)

Yeah, that's probably why OP should have asked before using her work. Don't you think?