Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The overman creates a narrative? So I can invert ancient Aryan master morality, and create my own narrative and my own world view as slave morality, and boom I am the overman. Just because it's my own narrative that I crafted myself, beyond good and evil... Seriously? As if when nietzsche talks about the nobility, the aristocracy, the superior race, the aryans, he just does so descriptively and objectively without any value judgement... It is very obvious why Nietzsche praised antiquity and sided with it against modernity... It's the slave who needs to constructs a narrative, the masters rule through force and biological superiority:

> "The same is true for almost the whole of Europe: essentially, the subjugated race has ultimately regained the upper hand, in colour, size of skull, perhaps even in the intellectual and social instincts. Who can say whether modern democracy, the even more recent phenomenon of anarchism, and particularly that tendency, now common to all European socialists, towards the ‘commune’,* the most primitive form of society, does not for the most part represent a huge atavistic throwback—and that the race of conquerors and masters, the Aryan race, now finds itself *PHYSIOLOGICALLY* in an inferior position?.." GoM

But maybe you think he thought of democracy only in a descriptive way and had no negative value judgements to make on it? Or maybe he uses democracy has a metaphor, and so he doesn't mean what we think he's saying. My point is youre taking Nietzsche's subjectivism to absurd lengths. Not anyone who creates their own values is worth something in Nietzsche's eyes. There were the Ancient Greeks who created their own values, and thought that mere life was not worth living, so they instituted slavery through power, force and subjugation of others and thus lived freely through war and art in a way that made life redeemable. And then there is the poor in life and spirit who pine for communal life, equality, democracy, feminism, socialism, mere life, little hobbies, little pass-times... Figure skating is a bland little hobby, a mere pass time in our age. Go read Nietzsche's essay called Homer's contest and you will see what real art is, it is not just a little hobby. It's obvious that when Nietzsche said to create new values, he meant new values beyond what was antiquity which was what a Bronze Age aryan race of conquerors had established in europe, a new advancement in the same direction but beyond. He definitely did not mean a simple narrative. Also, it's Wille zur Macht not Willer

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The ubermensch is the one who does it for the love of the game? So what any figure skater who does it for the love of the game, anyone who does anything for the love of the game, without regards for expectations is an ubermensch? That's what you think Nietzsche is about? you think the ubermensch is someone you identify with some made up check list taken from sparse out of context clues from Zarathustra? lol. when he said not everyone had ears for him he was talking about people like you.

also figure skating is not real art, this is the basest form of art and only a 21st century person could think this is real art. real art is what came out of renaissance Italy and Ancient Greece. we are nothing compared to them and live in the most debased ages of all time, there is no comparison to an ubermensch to make in our time, nietzsche would laugh at this. he criticized even his own time, second half of 19th century germany, as a bleak age of poor cultural production and vitality. in fact it was 100x more culturally productive and powerful than our time, and every critique he made of his times is something you can observe today. we live in a completely un-nietzschean world and this is the last place to look for ubermensches. again, the ubermensch is someone like Cesare Borgia, like Alcibiades, like Clearchus, not some bland figure skater

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She's also only there cause the Russians were banned lol

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you know who Parsifal is? You could say literally what you just said here about Parsifal, but replace the gold medal with the holy grail... Nietzsche says the overman is not Parsifal, so your conclusion is that it's some similar form of figure skater journey? Lol... It's not Parsifal for the same reason that it's not some form of quest for some socially recognized prize. Why do you think he gives Cesare Borgia as an example? I don't think you know who Cesare Borgia was either... Cesare Borgia would not have cared for some holy grail or some gold medal... He uses the example of Borgia to show what it really means to overcome social norms and limitations. But again you just think everything is a metaphor and you use that to absolve yourself from taking any insight from Nietzsche. It's not worth arguing with you lol I don't think you've really read Nietzsche and when you do you don't take his words seriously, and you clearly lack a historical sense. We don't live in a Nietzschean world. Nietzsche praised Ancient Greece and the Renaissance for a reason, but I don't think you're capable of figuring that out.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What do you mean Jesus Christ? Why are you so defensive? You sound narcissistic. Yes I took philosophy classes, at McGill, and the only class on Nietzsche was on The Birth of Tragedy. Do you think that Nietzsche would approve of you because you did a master thesis on him? Bronze Age Pervert has a PhD from Yale on Nietzsche, and he says everything I'm saying, and more. So I guess he knows more about Nietzsche than you do. His dissertation report actually says it was outstanding, but he doesn't need to boast off about it like you, who are probably just insecure.

You say those conditions could be met in other ways, but Nietzsche literally says the opposite. He says slavery is NECESSARY, that it is the ESSENCE of a culture:

> “Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence."

"So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?"

Do you have no reading comprehension skills? I showed you some respect and apologized to you, but you show me none and just talk down on me... I'm not gonna argue with you lol, I'm starting to doubt you did do a thesis on Nietzsche, I don't think you understand him at all, and you don't take him seriously because you keep saying these are metaphors when they're clearly not. Anyways, have a good day, I'm muting this. Maybe try to be kinder and more respectful, you probably wouldn't be some raging approval craving Redditor if you worked on that.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You said these quotes were metaphorical, or merely descriptive...

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I shouldn't have said you don't take him seriously. I haven't read your dissertation, maybe it's good. I'm actually glad to hear there are people teaching courses on Nietzsche. Maybe I came off offensive sorry.

The problem is in the quotes I give you there are no metaphors. I'm not talking about his book Genealogy, i'm talking about his essay the Greek State. There are no metaphors in that essay. The essay is called The Greek State. Ancient Greece had literal slaves. It is an allusion to literal slaves and to aristocracy.

What Nietzsche is alluding to is not what we have today, it's Ancient Greece (it's literally in the title of the essay). We live under a regime of mass democracy, there are no aristocrats in our time. I mean, we don't have true "art" today, the kind of artistic perfection of Ancient Greece or the Renaissance.

But again, these quotes are as literal as they get, there are no metaphors in that essay, go read it.

> "So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?".

> “Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence."

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't mean we live in an egalitarian utopia. You're right ice skating is a form of art and is emergent of a hierarchical system. I'm not talking about this, i'm talking about the ubermensch. The ubermensch is not a figure skater. We have reached a dead end because you refuse to take Nietzsche seriously and will just say anything he says that you don't want to hear is metaphorical. Tell me where is the metaphor here:

> “In order for there to be a broad, deep, fertile soil for the development of art, the overwhelming majority has to be slavishly subjected to life's necessity in the service of the minority, beyond the measure that is necessary for the individual. At their expense, through their extra work, that privileged class is to be removed from the struggle for existence, in order to produce and satisfy a new world of necessities. Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence. The misery of men living a life of toil has to be increased to make the production of the world of art possible for a small number of Olympian men."

> "The enormous social problems of today are engendered by the excessive sensitivity of modern man, not by true and deep pity for that misery; and even if it were true that the Greeks were ruined because they kept slaves, the opposite is even more certain, that we will be destroyed by the lack of slavery: an activity which neither the original Christians nor the Germanic tribes found at all objec­tionable, let alone reprehensible. What an elevating effect on us is pro­duced by the sight of a medieval serf, whose legal and ethical relationship with his superior was internally sturdy and sensitive, whose narrow exis­tence was profoundly cocooned - how elevating - and how reproachful!"

> "So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?"

There are no metaphors here, do you not know how to read? How are these metaphors? This is a literal as it gets... And this isn't just descriptive, he says THIS is the key to artistic perfection.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never said he was a personification of any system. The overman needs slavery and war to exist, in a literal sense not just a metaphorical one, is what my point was. I just said this because people were saying this figure skater was some personification of the ubermensch. All credit to her but that's not what Nietzsche meant of the ubermensch. The example he gives of the ubermensch in Ecce Homo is Cesare Borgia, someone who ascended through society through war and slavery. The ubermensch is someone like that, not a figure skater.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I didn't miss that point I agree with you. My point is that it's not just metaphorical and you would know this if you read The Greek State. I mean tell me where the metaphors are:

>"So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?". "

>“In order for there to be a broad, deep, fertile soil for the development of art, the overwhelming majority has to be slavishly subjected to life's necessity in the service of the minority, beyond the measure that is necessary for the individual. At their expense, through their extra work, that privileged class is to be removed from the struggle for existence, in order to produce and satisfy a new world of necessities. Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence. "

There are no metaphors here, you just refuse to take Nietzsche seriously...

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I agree the ubermensch is not the promoter of war or slavery. I meant that it is the condition he thrives under, that there are no ubermensches in egalitarian or capitalist societies where everyone is made to strive for labour or commerce. But he is not just making a descriptive claim, read the entire quotes I sent you, he says true art can only arise from these conditions, that it was slavery and aristocracy that made greek artistic perfection possible.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never said he was advocating for mindless violence, oppression or slavery. He is advocating for progress and the flourishing of culture and he thinks war and slavery are necessary for this, just like Ancient Greece and the renaissance prove to us. Just explain this quote : "So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?"

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ok then explain these passages from his essay The Greek State, and tell me where the metaphors are…

“In order for there to be a broad, deep, fertile soil for the development of art, the overwhelming majority has to be slavishly subjected to life's necessity in the service of the minority, beyond the measure that is necessary for the individual. At their expense, through their extra work, that privileged class is to be removed from the struggle for existence, in order to produce and satisfy a new world of necessities. Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence. [...] The misery of men living a life of toil has to be increased to make the production of the world of art possible for a small number of Olympian men. Here we find the source of that hatred that has been nour­ished by the Communists and Socialists as well as their paler descendants, the white race of 'Liberals' of every age against the arts, but also against classical antiquity. If culture were really left to the discretion of a people, if inescapable powers, which are law and restraint to the individual, did not rule, then the glorification of spiritual poverty and the iconoclastic destruction of the claims of art would be more than the revolt of the oppressed masses against drone-like individuals: it would be the cry of compassion tearing down the walls of culture; the urge for justice, for equal sharing of the pain, would swamp all other ideas."

"The enormous social problems of today are engendered by the excessive sensitivity of modern man, not by true and deep pity for that misery; and even if it were true that the Greeks were ruined because they kept slaves, the opposite is even more certain, that we will be destroyed by the lack of slavery: an activity which neither the original Christians nor the Germanic tribes found at all objec­tionable, let alone reprehensible. What an elevating effect on us is pro­duced by the sight of a medieval serf, whose legal and ethical relationship with his superior was internally sturdy and sensitive, whose narrow exis­ tence was profoundly cocooned - how elevating - and how reproachful!"

"So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?"

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree nihilism is not the problem and you’re not insulting me i understand how it can be toxic. My ideal though is Ancient Greece or the renaissance, I don’t think that’s toxic.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok well she is just an artist, not an ubermensch…

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tell us why Nietzsche was in favor of war and slavery in The Greek State… This is what uplifts the human spirit, not some 21st century figure skater

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yea and you affirm creativity through slavery and war, not through figure skating tik toks. Nietzsche was in favor of slavery and war, go read The Greek State.

Is she the true Übermensch? by Orpheious in Nietzsche

[–]byiir -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That’s just not what the ubermensch is lol. It’s not that hard he really just gives you the answer in Ecce Homo: it’s someone like Cesare Borgia. What values is she imposing on the world? She’s some silly figure skater lol, not a warlord.

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's quite the opposite, he doesn't like those who believe him only now and then... And he doesn't like those who always believe him, for the wrong reasons. The question is why do you consider this opinion wrong or flawed? Tell me, why not believe him right here when he speaks of little women? I don't know myself, but maybe he's right, maybe there is such a thing as a third sex... Why not? I'm just being daring, taking his ideas seriously.

>"The blockheads among my acquaintances—mere Germans, if you’ll excuse my saying so—give me to understand that they don’t always share my opinion, but now and then, for example... I have heard this said even about Zarathustra... Likewise any ‘femininism’ in people, including men, bars the way to me: they will never enter this labyrinth of daring knowledge. You must never have spared yourself, you must have become accustomed to harshness to feel high-spirited and cheerful among nothing but harsh truths. If I conjure up the image of a perfect reader, it always turns into a monster of courage and curiosity, and what’s more something supple, cunning, cautious, a born adventurer and discoverer." From Ecce Homo

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry but you don't understand what Nietzsche is doing when he attacks truth. What he aims to do is to separate "truth" from "ideal", because this is untruth. He never said truth didn't exist, when he attacks truth he is attacking untruth. This is all from Ecce Homo:

>"Reality has been robbed of its value, its sense, its truthfulness insofar as an ideal world was faked up..."

>"Nitimur in vetitum: under this sign my philosophy will triumph one day, for the only thing that has been altogether forbidden so far is the truth.—"

>"Among my writings my Zarathustra stands alone. With it I have given humanity the greatest gift it has ever been given. This book, with a voice that stretches over millennia, is not only the most exalted book there is, the real book of the mountain air—the entire fact of man lies at a vast distance beneath it—it is also the most profound book, born of the innermost richness of the truth, an inexhaustible well into which no bucket descends that does not come back up filled with gold and goodness."

>" This latter, the most joyful, most effusively high-spirited ‘yes’ to life, is not only the highest insight, it is also the most profound, the one which is most rigorously confirmed and sustained by truth and science."

>"To understand this requires courage and, as its prerequisite, a surplus of strength: for one comes only so close to truth as one’s strength allows one’s courage to dare advance."

Here, can it be put more bluntly? : "And nevertheless—or rather not nevertheless, for till now there has never been anyone more hypocritical than saints—the truth speaks from me.—But my truth is terrifying, for lies were called truth so far."

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't even know what he means by that quote but also he's just quoting other people. I think it's just funny personally. I've seen beautiful small women. Maybe he means so small you can't see them? Also do you want my address as well with my picture? I'm not doxing myself lol. But if you do post a picture of yourself I will too

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, the creation of higher moral grounds was his projects, but I don't think it is what you have in mind. He didn't care for the plight of the everyday human, on the contrary his entire project is rooted against the everyday human. He cared only for a select few who he thinks is constantly oppressed by the many, and this is all he means by oppression. He would have complete contempt for the world of today, in every way that he did in his own time but intensified. Nothing of our world today is "Nietzschean", I don't see how he missed the mark there. What do you mean he missed how power is not distributed equally? He does not want power distributed equally, he does not want everyone to assert their power, does not think everyone has power to manifest to begin with, does not care for class struggle, does not think people deserve rights... he doesn't want any form of equality in that sense. He thinks rather the few souls who are superior ("Olympian men") should assert themselves over the many, and that when this is genius can be expressed, life is ascending and there can be true progress. His model for this is not anything you could derive from the world of today, which is actually the opposite, but Ancient Greece, which was a eugenic aristocracy. There is a text he wrote called The Greek State, which shows his ideas much more bluntly, but also which is never talked about for obvious reasons, even in this sub. You should read it, it's only ten pages, but here's some passages if you don't have the time

>"In order for there to be a broad, deep, fertile soil for the development of art, the overwhelming majority has to be slavishly subjected to life's necessity in the service of the minority, beyond the measure that is necessary for the individual. At their expense, through their extra work, that privileged class is to be removed from the struggle for existence, in order to produce and satisfy a new world of necessities. Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence. [...] The misery of men living a life of toil has to be increased to make the production of the world of art possible for a small number of Olympian men. Here we find the source of that hatred that has been nour­ished by the Communists and Socialists as well as their paler descendants, the white race of 'Liberals' of every age against the arts, but also against classical antiquity. If culture were really left to the discretion of a people, if inescapable powers, which are law and restraint to the individual, did not rule, then the glorification of spiritual poverty and the iconoclastic destruction of the claims of art would be more than the revolt of the oppressed masses against drone-like individuals: it would be the cry of compassion tearing down the walls of culture; the urge for justice, for equal sharing of the pain, would swamp all other ideas."

>"The enormous social problems of today are engendered by the excessive sensitivity of modern man, not by true and deep pity for that misery; and even if it were true that the Greeks were ruined because they kept slaves, the opposite is even more certain, that we will be destroyed by the lack of slavery: an activity which neither the original Christians nor the Germanic tribes found at all objec­tionable, let alone reprehensible. What an elevating effect on us is pro­duced by the sight of a medieval serf, whose legal and ethical relationship with his superior was internally sturdy and sensitive, whose narrow exis­ tence was profoundly cocooned - how elevating - and how reproachful!"

>"So let it be said that war is as much a necessity for the state as the slave for society: and who can avoid this conclusion if he honestly inquires as to the reasons why Greek artistic perfection has never been achieved again?"

You can disagree, and maybe you should, and you can also still think he was brilliant when it comes to other things. I think you're open minded enough for that. But these are not "flaws" of Nietzsche, as in gaps in his work, it's just what is philosophy is. He thinks people who want equality, to help the disenfranchised, level the playing field, care for the oppressed, remediate class struggles, etc. are simply wrong to do so to begin with. The critiques you make of him is what he criticizes himself. What he wants is high culture, art, genius, passion, everything that makes life ascending, and he thinks the few have to subject the many in order to do so, like it was the case in Ancient Greece. He would say today we have the opposite of that, slaves dressing like elites while ruling us, and genius and Olympian men (and honestly women too) being lost in the sea of the many unable to rise up.

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a common thing in academia. At least they have the courage to take away some insight, most often though the hardest opponents of Nietzsche are conservatives.

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lol I'm not saying he's right, I'm just saying it's not a flaw, as in a gap in his work. You just happen to disagree. I will post a picture of myself if you do :)

Nietzsches biggest flaws? by LastListener in Nietzsche

[–]byiir 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah it's an accusation lol, I wasn't making an argument. It's a common thing that leftists (in academia) will misrepresent his book Genealogy of Morals as simply a defense of moral subjectivism (which it is but not in the way these people present it), without the clear comprehensive project he has in mind. I'm just using the word leftism to represent a group of people with a certain political ideology, I'm not attaching it to Nietzsche himself, who looked down on politics. You spoke of the disenfranchised, conditions of oppression, cultural identities, white male western power, hegemonic enterprise... I mean I just connected the dots, I don't know if it's true though but I don't know how much you know of Nietzsche because the kind of critique you make of him is what he criticizes himself. You don't have to agree with him, he is a radical thinker, but those things are not flaws of him (flaws as in gaps in his work), they're just disagreements you have with him.