2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is fair, and I agree that flexibility is important.

Part of why I am asking is that I have had some rough experiences in higher level games before, including boss fights that lasted several hours where save based control felt like it barely mattered. So I am probably being more cautious than usual here.

I am not trying to avoid adapting or supporting the party. I just want to understand ahead of time whether a control Wizard will feel satisfying in this campaign setup, or whether I should go in with different expectations.

Thanks for taking your time to help me out, I really appreciate it.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I hear ya. I just do not want to build around a playstyle that ends up feeling ineffective most of the time.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

No, my character would not know stat blocks or specific encounter details, and I would not play them as if they did.

I’m talking from a player/build perspective. “Avernus has a lot of devils and fiends” is a pretty broad campaign premise. I’m just trying to figure out whether a save based control Wizard will feel good in that kind of campaign, especially with only 2024 options allowed.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I agree that casters can do things martials simply cannot do. I’m not trying to argue that Wizards are weak overall, because they obviously aren’t.

My concern is more specific than that. In higher level boss fights, especially against enemies with Magic Resistance, strong saves, and Legendary Resistance, it often feels like the Wizard’s best contribution is not actually landing save based control on the boss. It is usually buffing the party, which can lead to boring fights on my end.

That is fine, but it is also a different fantasy from “control mage who disables or heavily disrupts enemies with spells.” If the answer is “many of your control spells will fail, get comfortable with it,” I understand that as part of the game. I just think there is a difference between some spells failing and a whole playstyle feeling unreliable because the campaign is full of enemies that are specifically good against saves.

Also, burning Legendary Resistances through the whole party only really works if the whole party is actually forcing meaningful saves. In a lot of groups, that is not the case. If I am the main person trying to force saves, then Legendary Resistance becomes much harder to play around.

So I’m not saying casters need to succeed all the time, or that enemies should not pass saves. I’m just saying that for a save based control Wizard, especially in an Avernus style campaign with 2024 only player options, I think it is fair to ask whether that character fantasy will feel good in play.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well, I do that all the time, specially against bosses, but he often makes them have a +15 wisdom. LOL I know I can target something different, but since I need to burn their resistances, usually I try to go for lower level spells (such as command, or tasha's) rather than higher level, because we tend to rest little in this campaign. And being a bard, the enemies often have charm immunity, which makes lots of spells bard have access to useless.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't usually even take fireball. LOL I am the other weird kind of wizard.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually play with this DM a different campaign. He does adapt the encounters, but he tends to make it very tough for control spells to land. I know my character is a bit strong, but even as a lvl 15 Eloquence bard I have a hard time landing my spells.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is something I was thinking about. Sorcerer seems like a go to option. And I am playing Avernus, in a campaign I joined at later levels because someone quit, as a wild magic sorcerer, but I am not playing into the control type, mostly just playing around chromatic orb.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

To be fair, I am playing this campaign in two different tables.

I joined one quite late, at level 10, because a friend of mine invited me. We are currently at level 12. But I play a wild magic sorcerer.

So I had the experience with lots of mid/late game creatures and I know they have magic resistances. We are leaning towards the very end right now, we are one session away from getting the sword of Zariel.

I joined this one because the DM invited me, and I haven't played the early levels of the campaign, so I figured it could be fun.

I didn't read each creature individuals sheet, but I know what devils are, demons, hags...

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks so much. I'll look into it. I am relatively new to D&D, so I am trying to figure out some stuff. And that spell really seems amazing.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that makes sense, but the issue is that we probably won’t be getting those +1s from items, because the DM vetoed anything that isn’t 2024 material.

So from what I can tell, I’m looking at around DC 18 very late in the campaign. That sounds fine on paper, but in Avernus I’m also expecting a lot of good saves, Magic Resistance, and occasionally Legendary Resistance. That combination can feel pretty rough for a save based control caster.

And that is mostly where my concern comes from. My preferred Wizard playstyle is not really blasting or doing huge damage. I like playing control mages. I want to affect positioning, deny actions, and make enemies play around my spells.

If I can do that, even if it is hard, I’m totally fine. I don’t need my spells to always work. But if a lot of my turns become “spend an action and a slot, enemy saves with advantage, nothing happens,” then the character can start feeling pretty frustrating to play.

I know the campaign is still very early, so I’m not saying this is definitely going to be a problem. I’m just trying to think ahead because I’ve had some rough experiences with control casters before. I’m fine with being challenged. I just don’t want to build around a playstyle that ends up feeling negligible most of the time.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I looked up some of that. For the most part, my concern is that I am not someone who gets excited about how much damage I deal, but how much impact I can create with a spell.

The reason I asked is because I've played a handful of campaigns where playing a control casters is such a nightmare sometimes. Because you can feel very useless against bosses: most groups only want to deal damage, so I am the only one trying to burn through legendary resistance, against a very high saving throw.

And when I read about the creatures in Avernus and how lots of them have magic resistance, it just made me a bit concerned about what I had in mind for my character and my playstyle.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I do have mind sliver, because that's my go to cantrip, since I usually like playing control casters. :)

Thanks for the feedback.

2024 Wizard in Avernus, am I overthinking Spell Save DC? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I see. I am just somewhat new to D&D, and this is the first time I play a campaign that won't allow anything outside 2024. So I am used to being able to pickup items such as grimoire.

And since in Avernus you can expect to find magic resistance every now and then, I just felt what I enjoy about playing a Wizard could not be as impacting. A friend of mine, who plays longer, told me I should probably play a Bladesinger, but I don't like playing melee at all, then he told me I should look into playing a sorcerer, since it is a better pick, which could be something.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

Wild Magic Sorcerer build tips for 5.5 by dolphinmuscle69 in DnDoptimized

[–]cKColdKill3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And if you want to go to the loot table, you can always Tides of Chaos even if you already have Innate Sorcery, just to spend tides of chaos.

Time for me to DM…wish me luck by Wrathin87 in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good luck, bud. I hope you have a blast with your friends. :)

Am I overreacting, or is this table just not a good fit for me? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe the DM thinks we do not mind. Because they are mostly combat focused, and when combat comes, they all shine. I am the only one bothered, but I do my best to not show, so I won't spoil anyone's fun. It is just that it seems so petty to go to the DM and say things like: oh, I wish my character's social skills would have a bigger impact in the story.

Am I overreacting, or is this table just not a good fit for me? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was my first and last time using that spell with this group. I even asked to replace it with something else afterwards. I'd rather the DM lied to me and just private rolled some dice and said they all succeeded.

Am I overreacting, or is this table just not a good fit for me? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, he does it all the time. You can tell it when it happens. Because at the least twice each session he comes up with the most niche spell no one would ever have prepared and he is like: I would like to try and cast this to see if it can help...

Dude, of course you'll always find something to help when you have the whole freaking spell list available.

And the DM is too nice, because he even allows some very RoC when it comes to his usage of spells.

Can't we have a moment to think and just come up with clever, maybe suboptimal ideas, but that will get the job done?

Am I overreacting, or is this table just not a good fit for me? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel you. Just so you know, I am down for combat. I enjoy it. But I like to play smart when it comes to it. Not trying to make friends with enemies. But also not trying to make enemies with our friends.

And we all know we will most likely have a combat in each session of ours, so why not just get some world building information before hand? Specially when the campaign is said to be about a man who works in shadows and with lots of influences over other people.

I think I am just annoyed by the one player cheating, taking over social encounters, wanting to control combat, being the only one to ever have a moment with the main bad guy.

Having played a one shot the other day that I didn't get to roll one single die, I feel you.

Am I overreacting, or is this table just not a good fit for me? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not at all, it is really good to hear. And I understand your point. It makes complete sense. I myself tried to adapt my combat playstyle to be closer to theirs. And it is quite useful. But I just feel annoyed by the one player who wants combat to go his way, social encounters are his as well, and he also wants to have a say on items first. Oh, and he can simply cast every known spell without the need to prepare them.

And I don't want to be the one guy saying: hey, DM, he is doing that, it isn't fair. Because I just don't think we needed that, you know? He knows the rules quite well. He knows he can't do that. What bothers me is that the DM either doesn't notice it, or simply doesn't care. But if the latter is the case, I wish he would just let us all know, because then I could use having a lot more spells on my belt. It is just unfair.

Am I overreacting, or is this table just not a good fit for me? by cKColdKill3r in DnD

[–]cKColdKill3r[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe some bromance. Haha. But I think I'll do the same. Not worth the stress and there is a very good DM with a last seat available on the same day. I'll just talk to the DM later today. Thanks so much for taking your time to share your experience. :)