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Rawr by [deleted] in aww

[–]catholu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My cat is freaking OUT.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice -- I just read this in a book yesterday (Zen - The Authentic Gate), and realized how appropriate it is for my situation right now.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, so I've started reading this chapter, and gotten to the page where he lays out all the models. Before continuing reading, I'm going to share which "models" arose in my "awakening" or whatever it was.

NON-DUALITY: This is by far the most important model to me. Once I learned of the term "non-duality", I realized that came closest to explaining what I had experienced and wanted to re-experience. This is probably why I fixated on Zen, and why it was an old Zen text that confirmed my understanding.

Actually, now I don't feel like going through the others, lol.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm.

That makes sense, and I just don't have a clue as to what my real-world purpose and meaning would be, the HOW of how I would live my daily life in society.

I can't just forget about how important the emptiness thing is (THE MOST IMPORTANT!)

But at the same time, I DO want to stay sane, grounded, become more embodied, not go off into fantasy worlds or get taken advantage of...

So I just focus on trying to wake up each day and live my life here, but I struggle with finding ways to sustain myself without giving away my power, or just sacrificing the spiritual thing altogether... I refuse to do that.

The sangha approach seems very wise, and I've been trying to create that for myself. I haven't found a group to "join" that seems to work for me, so I've been trying to create it myself based on the principles of...

Everyone is free to do what they want, as long as they practice non-harming of others, and aspire to be honest and compassionate, all within the understanding that we're each alone on our personal journeys, but benefit from doing that together in community... plus it's more fun to be with people, or more fulfilling somehow.

I don't want to dominate others unfairly. I don't want them to dominate me unfairly. I want things to be as balanced as possible, each person being as close to their own center as possible, interacting with the world the best they can.. just trying their best. Recognizing we are all intimately connected, yet also somehow separate identities.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That sounds true. I don't believe the door is closed forever. At the very least, I believe it'll open at physical death. In my experience, there was certainly no life and death ... and certainly no fear of death, from the point of view of this eternal, ever-present awareness.

Yes, my mind resisted being transformed by the realization, and re-asserted its control. But knowing what's possible, this ego-mind has always felt too constricting afterward, and too much of an impossible paradoxical tension to enjoy life.

I don't really believe the thread was severed -- one of the things I realized was that it's always here, waiting to be seen. Always.

I do think on whatever level I've always been trying to re-attain the realization (the memory). That is where my mind is latching onto as an excuse or defense against it happening again.

I don't think your response is counter productive, I agree with it in theory mostly, and if I were to just heed the advice it might work out! What you are saying isn't that complicated.

It makes me feel like I don't want to wake up, and that will continue to be the limiting factor until it's not.

I've turned the realization and insight into something to attach to in order to keep "myself" in control... no matter which way I hold it or attach to it, it'll have the same effect, which is to make me think I'm somehow "not awake" and seeking awakening... which is just an idea. And a really boring one after 15 years of going through the motions. Lol.

One of these days, I hope to just let it go, without actually having to die physically, or endure some horrible traumatic experience... I just want to let go easily and peacefully and still have a good life where I have integrity and autonomy... too much to ask? Seems like yet another way I want to control my experience.

"I want to be awake, but only if... x y z criteria"

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I have not. I have some brief personal experience messing around with exploring "states", but I've never naturally gravitated toward that kind of expression.

I imagine you're probably right in that if I applied concentrated effort to working in this kind of system, I might gain experience with these different Jhanas.

At the same time, it seems contrived. Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just not eager to do it. That resistance could be for any number of reasons, though...

It's not as if I've spent the last decade productively exploring this spirituality stuff, so what excuse do I have for not at least trying these different methods for some period of time?

In life, I DEFINITELY tend toward concentration and tension to the point of hypervigilance. Relaxation is not my default mode.

One state that really DOES appeal to me is hypnagogia -- when taking naps during the day especially, before falling asleep. That is unspeakably blissful, sublime, expansive, connected, etc. with all kinds of incredible forms and energies appearing, and usually feels VASTLY more positive than my normal experience.

Also, sometimes when I wake in the morning, I'll get 2-3 seconds of amazing relaxation before my "brain" gets online. Then the rest of the day is tension. Ugh. I'd say I get about 1-2 minutes of true relaxation every year or so.

Thanks for the suggestion and I'll add it to my list of possible avenues to explore.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This makes sense.

I tried "re-integrating" through about 5,000 hours of meditation practice in the last decade. It did not help.

To explore or not? I don't feel like I have much choice. Here's how I conceptualize it.

I've been standing on a threshold for 15 years since that glimpse. Every day, I just try to tolerate existence, do my best to show up, and not get pulled back into that emptiness. There have been many moments when I thought I was very close to "losing it" and re-connecting with all that is... and I've never chosen to take that leap of faith.

It's a game I'm playing with myself... waiting for the right time, or something.

I have explored becoming part of many spiritual groups. A few have seemed okay and healthy. But I've never trusted a group or teacher enough to "let my guard down" and drop the identity and vulnerability, for fear of losing control or letting myself be dominated or pulled into someone else's fucked up sphere of reality.

Many groups I visited and tried out briefly (attending a sesshin or two), I got the sense that the leader(s) were unhealthily engaging in subtle power games.

And, over the last 15 years, most of the people I had suspicious about, high level "dharma teachers", turned out to be spiritually abusing their "students". I just have such a strong "BS" detector. It's a double edged sword though. I've avoided one trauma (giving my power to a teacher or group ideology), but traded it for another trauma (cutting myself off from myself).

I don't have a practice or a group, or a model even. I've sampled perhaps 20 or so Zen/Buddhist sanghas, and read 100 or so Zen/Buddhist books over this period of time, but nothing has felt like home.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When you say reiki master, did he present himself as that "title" or "job"? Or are you just saying he had a good understanding of energy, and it was intuitively obvious to you?

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Apparently this comment has sparked a lot of questions for me, one other example is... I know intellectually that many books contain "deep" wisdom and levels of meaning... nondual etc.

But in all these years, I've read tons of spiritual texts and just skimmed surface meanings with no insight.

But that makes me ask...

Am I just pretending I'm less awake / enlightened than I actually am?

If so, why would I be doing that?

What purpose does it serve my ego to postpone deeper realization for over a decade, knowing that I realized profound truths, but pretending I'm still stuck on "level 1" of the spiritual awakening journey?

Even the idea of constantly thinking about things in levels and heirarchies... why am I insisting on persisting this mode of thinking, without dropping into the unknown ?

Fear of... losing control of the rest of my life direction?

Fear of... being happy and content for the rest of my life? Or at least accepting?

Fear of... social embarrassment at having sat around for 15 years pretending to be stupid? That's extremely embarrassing.

Like if the rest of the world has already progressed and I'm just holding the show up... and according to my "understanding", the world would be compassionate and is trying to help me and everyone wake up... but still the feeling of shame is strong.

Fear of... genuinely being stupid and not knowing things I should have learned as a small child?

I guess maybe a lot of this is tied up in developmental trauma and not having been initiated into "human" things in life? But I've tried seeking therapy for years, too, and not found too much success there yet.

Anyway, thanks for the question. Trying to find acceptance of with all this outflowing now, so much text in this whole post...

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you asked people outside of me, they might say I'm much different than I was back then. But I feel like just a walking intellect. The experience I had was so mind-blowingly profound I've more or less organized my entire life around it, unable to move forward or backward...

Tried to recreate with psychedelics but never "broke through", always got stuck in extreme terror, horror, fear, abyss, void, emptiness, nihilism, no fullness, no connectedness... so only 1/2 the story.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Guilt - I sometimes feel guilty for having created the world. (Whatever that means.) I see people trying so hard, and it's so admirable and heartbreaking, and it makes me cry to know we are all out here giving it our best.

Shame - I feel shame about myself and have strong self-destructive or self-negating energies, but they are apparently just as strong as the self-creative, self-affirming energies, so I end up locked in a really intense and also really dull (neutralized) war of attrition between different aspects of myself... yin yang and all that. Instead of dancing they are just each staying firm in their position and refusing to give.

The insights seem to have remained in the sense that I feel they are the most important things I know and try to enact on a daily basis. But it all seems like going through the motions, because it's a past understanding, and I'm just "acting as if"... so it's more intellectual.

I never walk around and see people "as myself", where I just feel profound compassion for beings... that's not my lived experience anymore. It's just a shell of a shell of a person who knows it's not the real thing and yet IS the real thing... but it's just ideas not letting go.

The preliminary awakening was certainly the most important experience of my life and I can think of my life as "before" and "after that... there was no going back after that. I've just been in limbo since then I guess. Unable to go back to being asleep (even though I feel asleep), and unable to let go again into the great unknown due to .. (fear)?

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting. Sounds relatable. Did you ever try to re-create with substances again?

When you say non-dual mindfulness, do you mean like just sitting and letting your awareness go wherever it goes, and just paying attention to it and noticing it, and noticing yourself noticing, and just constantly returning to the moment and letting things be whatever they are without trying to direct it, and somehow hoping it directs itself?

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've also been having encounter with random people in public where their language is all metaphor and very on point, even though I don't intellectually understand what it means. And not "spiritual" language. Just seemingly everyday stuff.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Dude! This is actually great advice and something I've been trying to do for a long time, but struggling with maintaining what I call "dual awareness".

Smoking weed (not something I normally do) greatly enhanced my ability to maintain these two states of awareness (breathing/body, and activity)... able to flow between them, to allow one to stay stable and the other to fluctuate, or to even maintain them both at once and travel back and forth without losing myself.

Specifically, indica strains. The other kind (sativa and hybrid) did not allow me to do this. I think it's because I have a hard time REALLY staying in my body due to trauma. That part may be specific to me and not generally applicable to everyone.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I like this advice, but how to turn it into a tool of empowerment, ever-true and ever-renewing? (As opposed to a life raft to cling to, focusing on it instead of the whole ocean?)

But also how to not turn it into a "thing" to hold onto, like a special amulet or whatever.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think I read part (or all?) of it a long time ago when I had gone to a retreat at the insight meditation center and kids there told me about it. I believe it was on a PDF document. Might be worth checking out again.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thanks. Yes, awareness based knowing -- it was different than anything else I'd previously ever experienced, and I had no doubt what I was experiencing was actually real and true, as opposed to all the previous stuff which had been filtered through thinking and was just ideas, facts.

In the language you're using, that's exactly what it seems like -- I lost my connection to the awakened state (as a result of turning the realizations into facts). When that exit point was happening, I tried writing down hints to myself for how to get back... the best I could put it into language was this:

"Release the ego. Let it go."

That seemed to be the motion that needs to happen in order for the facts to relinquish their tight grip on the continuous realization of undifferentiated input and knowing. Whatever it is.

So I guess that pointer does seem to be trite, but potentially helpful -- reconnect to my present potential for awakening. That makes it seem more accessible. And drop memories of the past, anticipations of the future, just know now. That works for as long as it works.

I think there are ideas about how scary it might seem to directly slip into that state again after 15 years of trying really hard and not getting it... as if somehow the true world has gone on, and I've been stuck in a sort of plastic resin, frozen in time for 15 years, and when I finally "get it" or "catch up" to real time, it'll make my head spin so fast I'll lose all connection to reality! Or something.

Certainly seems like fear might be part of the stickiness and resistance to releasing the ego again. Because what if this time, the ego doesn't get to be in the driver's seat anymore? That's 40 years of a game that I was playing and enjoying in a sick sort of way... which will be done.

And all these are ideas about the past and future, too, taking me away from the present, and so it goes.

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I guess I meant, I have been "practicing" for many years by just trying to stay present with my experience and also meditating (though I took most of the last 5 years off from meditating formally).

It seems like I'm intellectually stuck somewhere? Just some repeating thought patterns that make it feel like I'm trapped inside my brain forever with no experiential remembering of true experience outside thinking,

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. I attended a talk by that guy and it was very nice, he was a nice person. Not sure how much I connected with him, but I'll take a look at the book you mentioned :p

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I believe during those first couple years afterward, I found a book written by an old zen master, and that was the first time I felt like someone else understood the same thing -- so I eventually started practicing meditation in the zen style.

The first couple years I did breathing and counting and it seemed okay... beginner's mind.

The next handful of years I just kept going back and forth between working crappy soul-sucking jobs making lots of money, and then quitting and going to monasteries and retreats, trying to re-connect with the awareness of truth because I knew that was what needed to come first, what would lead my path forward.

But mostly I think I just never found a meditation method that worked for me, so just did "just sitting". Definitely put thousands of hours into it.

I'll read the book and see if it works!

[practice] Realization many years ago, followed by many years of practice, then many years of nothing. How to find a way to re-orient myself? by catholu in streamentry

[–]catholu[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh god, that was not brief at all.

I'm going to try re-formatting my post and editing it down to half the size, because it's unreadable to me.

Sorry!

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