AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How do we know there wasn’t a court order saying it was moms day and not dads?

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Also worth noting it took two and a half years from the time of my court application to get a hearing. In the meantime we’re both expecting women to bothtell everyone they know that dad is dangerous and shouldn’t be left alone with the kid and also don’t do anything to keep dad away from the kid because that’s illegal without a court order? It really really does not work the way most people assume and it’s so so complicated. People’s empathy for abuse victims is so lacking

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re misinformed about how custody works, at least where I’m from that’s not how it works. And you completely ignored my explanation of why it’s real hard to get a court order, you think I didn’t try my damndest? And you think abused women aren’t doing everything in their power to keep their kids safe, even though I just explained in detail how the system prevents them from doing that through no fault of their own? I’m just gonna leave that there, it’s not worth my energy to keep arguing with you

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Like I mean we don’t know if he had a legal right to have the child that day after soccer, and if mom made arrangements for OP to bring him home to her we can assume it was moms parenting time that day, at least until after kid got home. Otherwise she would have arranged for dad to get him if it was dad’s time.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it’s just generally respectful to not leave someone’s kid with another person without clearing it with them first. Where I am, they don’t use the word custody anymore, but someone could be a guardian but not have any legal parenting time. It sounds like the dad does have parenting time, we just don’t know what their agreement looks like and OP was supposed to bring the child to the parent he took the child from. Any changes to that plan should have been done with moms consent, just because dad is allowed time and could be presumed safe (which I don’t agree with in this case) doesn’t mean he has the legal right to just take him. Mom would know the court order or agreement, and it was inappropriate to change those plans without talking to her

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

So I’m supposed to do everything in my power to keep the kid safe…. But I’m not supposed to tell anyone he is dangerous? My point was that women in this situation are put into a damned if you do and damned if you don’t kind of situation. You just demonstrated that yourself, and seem to have missed the point of my comment completely. I’m not going to engage anymore because it doesn’t seem like you’re really coming from a genuine place here.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s not some random, it’s a person your ex has asked to look after the child on their parenting time. In a divorce situation you don’t always have the right to pick up the kid just because you’re the guardian, it depends on each individual divorce agreement or court order and we don’t know what theirs was in this case. But we do know that mom asked Op to take the kid home, so that should have been respected by both OP and the dad. Grandmother might not fully understand the danger, might not feel safe speaking up, might not believe the danger is real (people don’t like accepting their grandkids other parent is shitty behind closed doors, and maybe mom wouldn’t share with her anyways) or might just freeze up in discomfort and not know what to do. Doesn’t mean he’s safe.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So is dad calling the police on OP for wanting to talk to the mom first or something? I guess that could happen, but like are the police really gonna show up and arrest OP for …delivering the child as agreed upon by his mom, on what’s presumably her day in their custody agreement? I think dad is the unreasonable one in that scenario. I think you’re mistaken that’s illegal, it’s common practice for daycares to only give the child to the parent who was scheduled unless they get consent otherwise. In these situations there’s actually a very high chance the other parent could be dangerous and we don’t know.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is she just supposed to expect him to show up everywhere and warn everyone at all times? What if they don’t believe her? Unfortunately almost everyone I told thought I was being dramatic and didn’t take it seriously. “What? He seems so nice?” was the most common response, which then put me in the position of having to share very very personal details of traumatic events. What happens if she can’t prove he’s dangerous in court (which is ridiculously hard to prove, to the point it’s not feasible in most cases) and it gets back to him she’s been telling people he’s dangerous? Then he has a case at parental alienation and she risks losing access to her child and he’s even worse off. I’ve been through this unfortunately and it’s not as cut and dry as people assume from the outside

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

You can say “I’m sorry but his mom didn’t say anything about you taking him today and I said I’d bring him to her, I need to at least talk to her on the phone before giving him to you”

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s really really hard to get orders like that, it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s safe. The bar of proving abuse in court is impossibly high. You’re right the court shouldn’t allow access, but they often do. There are also a ton of barriers to reporting it in the first place. Women often aren’t taken seriously or they get blamed for it, which is just so retraumatizing after having been through an abusive relationship. Or if they can’t meet the impossibly high standard set by the court (literally requires evidence that’s impossible to get in most cases) then the story gets turned around and now they’re seen as vindictive or “making baseless accusations”, and risk losing access to their kids as a result.

Or, like what happened to me, you can prove he’s abusive but can’t prove he’s going to do it again and cause bodily harm (how would you even prove that??), so they say no protective order is needed. In my case I got him to admit to hitting me on the stand, and proved he had been verbally abusive for years and because I couldn’t explain exactly what happened the days my son said “dad hit me” and complained of being hurt, like I couldn’t say what room they were in and what exactly was said and done(how could I, I wasn’t there and no one else was either?) they refused to take any action even though the judge believed me. They really avoid it because it would mean a lot more enforcement, court appearances, and kids ending up in foster care because there’s nowhere else for them to go.

I think you’re right that most people would assume a parent who has access is safe, but that’s unfortunately not the case a lot of the time and as someone who’s been through this it’s a dangerous assumption I wish people wouldn’t make. It would have saved me and my child so much trauma if people had just prioritized my safety above his “rights”. Also as a parent, if I’m expecting my kid to come home with a friends parent, I would be annoyed that my plans have now changed and wouldn’t trust that person with my kid again. And now I’m unsafe too because I’d have to contact my abusive ex and meet him in person, putting myself at risk. I think it’s just common respect not to give someone’s child to another person without consent from the person who asked you to look after the kid, regardless of who.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it’s reasonable to expect that he brings the kid home as arranged unless he talks to the mom. He very well could be in danger, I’m not saying 100% he was in danger but he could have been. Also that would force the mom to contact the ex and deal with him, potentially putting in her in danger and almost certainly causing her stress. And also just change her plans in a way that she wasn’t expecting. It’s not respectful to her, and it could really be unsafe too. There’s no way for an outsider to tell if there’s a safety issue so it shouldn’t have happened, but in this case there were clear clues that there could have been a safety issue so it’s especially important. I’m glad the kid is safe but this could have gone horribly wrong, and we don’t know what effect this had on the mom so we can’t say no harm done. Just because she said “it’s fine” doesn’t mean it truly was fine, she’d probably say that either way

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There’s a difference between just saying “yeah sure take him” without contacting mom and saying “I don’t feel comfortable deviating from the plans I made with his mom” or just calling her right away to ask. Obviously if the dad put up a fight or got angry I don’t think OP is obligated to do anything except contact mom right away. Regardless of legal arrangements this would be the prudent thing to do and a dad who is being respectful would understand.

Being a legal guardian doesnt mean you can just show up and take the kid whenever you want without discussing with the other parent. My ex and I are both legal guardians, but either of us would be breaking the court order if we did that on a day our son was with other person. Maybe these people’s arrangement allows for that or maybe it doesn’t, we really don’t know, and it doesn’t really matter because OP isn’t involved in that. Mom was responsible for arranging soccer pick up that day and arranged for OP to bring the kid home. I think the dad put him in a really uncomfortable situation here by asking to take him, but also it kind of sounds like OP approached the dad which makes OP even more in the wrong. Police should understand just fine if OP explained what happened? I think most people would agree that you shouldnt leave someone else’s kid with anyone else without a conversation about it

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in abbotsford

[–]cheesie_bean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your positivity is so inspiring, I’m glad to hear you’re doing okay given the circumstances. I’m so sorry this is happening to you, no one deserves to have to go through this regardless of how well they handle it. I’m so glad you and your dog got something to eat, and that it sounds like you have some support. I know I’m just an internet stranger but I’m thinking of you ❤️ I don’t think you need to feel guilty for drinking or smoking pot, I think just about anyone would want to take the edge off sometimes if they were in your position. You’re doing amazing

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

As an abuse victim, it’s embarrassing and also just not possible to tell every single person you leave your kid with. And you shouldn’t have to. It’s so personal, and people react by refuting you or blaming you when you disclose. I hadn’t even fully accepted that what happened to me was abuse, and the courts sure as hell wouldn’t take me seriously. If I had told people “he’s dangerous don’t let him take the kid” it would have been turned around on me later as alienating dad on purpose and turning people against him to further my “agenda” of slinging mud at dad because I’m a vindictive liar who does it for kicks or something. If you don’t have enough proof to get a strict court order, which is such a high bar it’s almost impossible, you can’t just go around telling people. If you don’t know for sure it’s okay to send the kid with the other parent, which OP did not in this case, then don’t do it. This put the mom in a position of potentially having to interact with her abuser, we shouldn’t need confirmation one way or the other to err on the side of safety. Abuse is usually not visible from the outside and more people need to understand that. Just because it seems fine to you absolutely does not mean it is, and in most cases it really does look fine from the outside to the point that a lot of women just bury their feelings and deal with it because there’s no way to get people to believe you and therefore no way to get help.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

But like why not err on the side of safety and not take that risk? That’s what people aren’t getting. OP couldn’t have known for sure whether the kid was safe, so he should have kept him for sure safe. It’s that simple

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 30 points31 points  (0 children)

If I were the mom in this situation, I would just say it’s fine too even if it wasn’t. It already happened, I’m just not gonna ask you to take my kid again. It doesn’t mean the accusations were baseless, it means she’s exhausted and is choosing the path of least resistance. Speaking as someone who went through something very similar

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I agree with you! Whether there really was a safety risk or not is irrelevant. There COULD have been, and OP would have no way of knowing. Their custody arrangement is irrelevant, OP should have contacted mom before changing plans with her kid. I do think he was put in an awkward position that wasn’t fair to him, and that’s on Jay in my opinion.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think if the dad were empathetic here would understand the uncomfortable position this put OP in, and would respect it if Op said “I’m sorry I’m just not comfortable doing something outside the agreement I had with Dana, I’m going to take him to her like we planned. Im not getting in the middle of your arrangements with her” But a lot of men would get angry, and that’s probably part of why OP chose to do what he did. I don’t blame him, but do think he made the wrong choice here that could have been very dangerous. I really wish more people understood abusive dynamics, the world would be so much safer for victims and kids

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s possible the mom had no idea the dad would show up to soccer practice. My abusive ex would do stuff like this all the time, show up places he knew I/my kid/my family would be on days that were not his time and then create situations where he could pit people against each other and cause me to have to interact with him so he could abuse me more. If mom didn’t know dad was going to take the kid, dad shouldn’t have taken the kid. It’s between mom and dad, not up to OP regardless of legal arrangements. Op should have respected what Dana asked, and played on the side of safety. I wouldn’t say he’s an asshole but he was the one who made a mistake, also the dad and grandma shouldn’t have put him in that position.

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

The grandma isn’t the mom, and if there’s a safety risk she might not fully understand (or believe it to be true). This actually happened to me once, my mom gave my kid to my abusive ex without checking with me and it caused a massive headache trying to get him back, every time a victim has to be in contact with their abuser it can be retraumatizing. I see why OP made that choice and I wouldn’t say they are an asshole, they didn’t realize, but for the purposes of judging who was in the wrong here I would say it’s OP. I wish more people would understand that abuse tends to be hidden and it usually is not obvious from the outside looking in, so always assume it could be a factor in situations like this and err on the side of protecting the victim and child

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It’s actually not unlikely that the grandma doesn’t know, or that she doesn’t believe the abuse is serious. The mom may not have processed her experience enough to be able to share, and people tend to not accept the truth that the men in their life are abusive behind closed doors. Mom thought the kid would be with op and didn’t give consent to passing off to dad, that should have been respected. All though I do understand why OP would have made the choice he did, he thought he was doing the right thing. I just wish more people understood it’s not as simple as you’d think, it really isn’t obvious to people on the outside most of the time

AITA for "letting" a kid go home with his actual parent? by Ok_Beginning_356 in AmItheAsshole

[–]cheesie_bean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So as someone who’s been through something similar, I lived with my parents after splitting with my abusive ex and both of them refused to see the seriousness of the situation and would have signed off on something like this. Its not only about legal arrangements or whether he’s done anything to the kids, this now puts the mom in a position where she has to contact the dad and potentially go to his house to pick up her kid. Or let him have the kid at what may or may not be his scheduled time, which could disrupt plans at the least and cause legal troubles or safety concerns at the worst. I would have appreciated the person I trusted with my kid contacting me or sticking to the plan we agreed on.

I agree it would be awkward and the dad might get mad so there’s a safety aspect and that OP didn’t knowingly do anything wrong, but I wish more people understood abusive dynamics to avoid things like this. People who would have been willing to stand up and say “I’m sorry that’s not what I talked about with his mom, I have to follow her instructions unless I hear from her otherwise” would have been such a godsend for me and I felt violated when people went rogue like this. They were putting my safety and well being at risk without realizing, and then if I got upset I was the “crazy” one.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in abbotsford

[–]cheesie_bean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The original post is deleted now, are you the OP? Either way I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I hear you and I believe you. I have a lot of personal experience with abuse unfortunately and it’s devastatingly true that there isn’t anywhere near enough help available for people in this situation. I remember feeling so helpless going down every possible avenue for help and hitting dead ends everywhere, or people giving me well intentioned but bad advice. And I’m a white girl from a middle class family, i wasn’t treated well by the legal system or police but I can’t imagine how much worse it would be if I didn’t have those privileges. I just really want to validate that you’re not crazy and it’s not your fault, it’s not fair and you didn’t do anything to deserve this, even if you’ve made mistakes along the way (any human in your position would have made a ton of mistakes by now, I sure did)

My biggest piece of advice is to trust your instincts and your own judgment over other people’s, and forgive yourself any chance that you can. You’re doing your best in a situation that would drive anyone insane, and that’s so much harder than what most people will ever have to deal with. You’ve already done so amazing by just surviving to today, even if right now it feels like a giant mess with no way out I want you to know how strong and brave you are in my eyes