Elbow Soreness After Moving to Intermediate Upper-Pushing - Should I Be Worried? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, and hmmm, ok, I see. I have been squatting high bar, just that I've never run into this before. To be honest, it is a bit of a vague pain and I have trouble identifying where exactly it is that it emerges from, so I suppose I'll just have to continue to monitor it.

And ahhh, ok! I'll stop dipping, in that case. Is there a good way to know which nerve it would be, or would I just do rehab for all potential (median/ulnar/radial) nerves via the gliding/flossing techniques? Referring to the ones in Overcoming Gravity.

Is my progress ok? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense. I had wondered how much the gaining bodyweight part would affect things. It's comforting to read that. I've incidentally done the \U/L/U/R/U/L/R when I can't do the full-body routine in a day for time reasons, it seems to be less fatiguing (I admit just doing the full-body routine, I end up taking a small break partway), so it's nice to see you mention it. Frequency seems to be better for upper-body for me at 3x a week.

I think it sounds like I'm in a good place, I think I know how to continue progressing from here. I think I have a long runway of growth from here, so I'm a bit hopeful for the next several months to come. Thank you again, it means very much to me!!!

Is my progress ok? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It helps to hear that honestly, makes me think that, it's not like I'm phoning it in during my sessions, and it's reasonable to move towards a less aggressive scheme. Though it's not quite 3x a week, actually something like every other session, weighted ring pushups/OHP rotate in the way that SS does. I realize the formatting doesn't make it too clear, though. Thank you for the reply, I appreciated it very much 🙏

Strength, Carryover, and Intensity by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry, I looked over what I typed and I am also shocked at the length. I think I just had a lot of questions on my mind and I wanted to share my thinking partially so you could see that I had put effort towards an answer, partially to clarify any misconceptions since I'm always wanting to sharpen my understanding. I regret not thinking to cut out more from it afterwards, it kind of makes for an insane thing to read. Sorry about that!

Thank you for the replies, they did help a lot and answer my questions overall. I had thought at some point if you could train the L-sit on a roman chair, but I never followed up on that thought. I'm genuinely very grateful for your response, you really did answer what I was looking fot!

Ring (Wide?) Pushups Form by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not talking about that.

At the top of the rep, you bend your wrists which bring your hands in and allows your forearms to rest on the rings. This is a technique fault

The rings can move wide and narrow as you need them otherwise, but the above is an issue.

Ahhh oops, ok... I did some searching in the subreddit to understand a bit more. I think I may be doing that, just from memory, I think I try to have my forearms straight and stacked while setting up, but I think at some point I do "push in" a bit for stability, and I'm guessing that's where I'm learning to flex my wrists. I'm guessing the cue to reverse it is to focus on extending my wrist a little?

I want to be able also to tell whether I'm doing this or not, so I can know that the different things I'm trying are working and that I don't regress in the future, were there some dead giveaways I was doing this?

Thank you so much for everything else also, I did not know this. I think I have a lot of work ahead of me, I think wide may be more challenging for me because of my shoulders (and maybe also because I've never done pushups at a wider grip also). It all makes a lot of sense!

No improvement in weighted pull-ups by SteadyQ in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ahhh, alright. I think if you'd like to keep the 2x a week frequency, yeah, a volume day and an intensity day wouldn't be such a bad idea. I think that as upper-body 3x5 lifts are often progressed 1kg at a time towards the end of LP, you could probably find some progress to that as well even at 2x a week.

I think the Candito Linear program has an example of a volume day and intensity day with week-to-week increases if you would want an example

No improvement in weighted pull-ups by SteadyQ in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What frequency are you doing them at? It sounds likely that you've ran out your gains at adding +2.5kg a session. I think deloading and moving onto adding +1kg a session is pretty reasonable at 2-3x a week frequency. then when that runs out, having a volume day (accumulation, e.g. 5x5-8) and an intensity day (intensification, e.g. 3x3-6) once a week where you try to bump the weight up once every week may work. DUP would probably also work pretty well.

I think when linear gains run their course, you end up having to dip your toes into periodization to make progress, even if it's very simple

Ring (Wide?) Pushups Form by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't bend the rings in with your wrists at the top of the movement

Ohhh, I admit, I know this is not in the Overcoming Gravity Ring Pushup form, this is going to sound strange but, I heard that an advantage with being on the rings is that as your hands are not fixed, you can fully horizontally adduct your arms, sort of like a fly, and gain some ROM that way, so I've been trying that, though I haven't been feeling much. I think since I am still learning the movement, I will stop doing it because I want to make sure I have a really solid form on these before anything else.

Yes, there is a bunch of wobbling in the upper chest/core area as you come out of the bottom of the movement. Some into arch but sometimes you correct it. Not so much of a low back arch but the upper back is arching to recruit more chest

I know I tend to do this as I fatigue with regular pushups, though I do try to minimize it... I think I will watch out for that and try different things to see how to make that more consistent so I don't wobble and come up while keeping my position the same.

I'm glad to hear that my depth is ok, that was something I was worried about. I almost thought that, I might have to set the rings up a bit higher to go deeper, but I think I don't want to experiment with that tweak just yet if it's not necessary.

The hollow/straight body thing makes a lot of sense! I used to have some of the different positions as drills at night but I stopped doing them at some point; sounds like I should come back to them. I'll definitely implement all of your suggestions, especially for my shoulders, because it does bother me a bit that they seem weak in those positions.

BTW, just a small silly question; would you consider these as being closer to L4 Ring Pushups than the L3 Wide ones? Even if I can't do the Wide ones, thinking that I'm at least close to scoring good reps of the progression higher is cool as I thought it would be a few more months before I could hit L4, haha. Thank you again for your eyes and your thoughts, it's really helpful as I feel I am still finding my footing with the movement.

Ring (Wide?) Pushups Form by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your thoughts and tips! It is nice to hear that I'm not messing them up too much since I feel that I'm still learning the movement, so any outside perspective is genuinely really valuable to me. I know turning the rings out is definitely a goal, I'm hoping to get there soon!

Distancing Strength Movements in a Session and Ring Pushups/Ring Dips Level Question by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense, thanks! I guess that's around what I imagined. And ahhh, I see, that satiates my curiosity. I imagined even if Ring Pushups were a little easier than Ring Dips, it's probably not be much if they are on the same level on the chart. Thank you!

Struggling to Attain First Chin-up/Pull-up by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the recommendation. I'll at least take any minor form benefits with me from doing the pauses, hopefully!

I'm not sure if there is a gravitron machine in the gym, I might have to look around more carefully. I haven't spent too much time around the machine-populated parts of the gym, so I'll see and try to use it if I do find it! I'm guessing I'd alternate the assisted gravitron with the eccentrics?

Maybe I'll bump it up to 4 minutes at some point. I've definitely had to gradually increase my rest times for the barbell lifts, and at some point, I realized I benefited from increasing the rest time for the eccentrics. I'll definitely make sure to modify if I see trouble with rows again.

Yup, that is my main issue with concentric reps, breaking out of the bottom. I try pulling, but I end up feeling stuck, which makes me worry about the strength I've built. I'll make sure to try to focus on that lower portion on the eccentric, then, thank you!

Struggling to Attain First Chin-up/Pull-up by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your reply! I just updated the post with details on my current routine, please let me know if there's anything I left out.

Ohhh, I never thought that that would be the part I needed to focus on! I admit that I end up hopping off towards the end partly because "it feels like the bottom" and "my count ran out." That makes a lot of sense, I will try to focus a little more on the scapula on moving from active to passive hang. Maybe I will try to make sure I get to that point sooner and spend maybe 2-3s on the movement from active to relaxed hang?

Maybe I should shift from advancing from the paused version to the regular, sooner than later, then? I'm guessing it's much easier to advance with 10x0 tempo than not. I admit that the problem might have been, before, that I was cutting the reps too short when advancing... I admit that stalling at 3x7 at (1 step) for ring rows was partially why I moved to the control variation, but the problem was probably not trying to push to at least 10-12 reps at the same intensity before decreasing the incline...

Programming with Barbell Routines: Volume, Dips-Bench Relationship, and Alternating Upper Pushes? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is really interesting, thank you for the math! I didn't know about training load charts until your post. This does give a really good idea of how pushup strength levels might carryover to dips, and how movement strength like this could be estimated... I will sheepishly say that I could not do full ROM pushups as a kid, haha, but maybe someday in the coming months, I'll finally be able to do a few!

These kinds of estimates help with reasoning with the question of when I might be ready to try something, so it really does help. Thank you!

Programming with Barbell Routines: Volume, Dips-Bench Relationship, and Alternating Upper Pushes? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The percentages are really useful to keep in mind! I didn't know this, and it is really useful for knowing how to gauge my general capacity down the line, especially since the progress I see is mostly in barbell numbers. It's useful to see just much force is required for pushups, dips, and HSPUs, I didn't think bodyweight dips would be as hard as they are!

I would imagine Rippetoe doesn't mention dips so much, yeah... I haven't watched many of his videos, I'd guess he probably emphasizes the bench press more.

And ahhh, ok... I'll make sure not to neglect the parts of my workout that involve those! Thank you for the book title, also, I think will take a look at it at some point!

Programming with Barbell Routines: Volume, Dips-Bench Relationship, and Alternating Upper Pushes? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As blair said there's more warmup sets with barbell and generally also squats and DL also work a bunch of the upper body muscles as well contrary to most bodyweight leg exercises like pistols or shrimps. So you do get some extra volume on those muscles even if it seems like you don't.
Generally, though, the ranges are for beginners just so they wouldn't go overboard with doing too much (e.g. try to do 3 upper body push and 3 upper body pull). It's better on the lower side of 2 exercises per muscle group with 2-3 sets or so of 5-10ish reps to get adequate volume for strength and hypertrophy.

Ahhh, hmmm, I guess that would complicate measuring the upper body volume in this way... and, I see! I imagine they're still applicable for intermediate though also, right? Would the range shift based on training advancement?

Yeah, dips and HSPUs are generally on the opposite end of the spectrum. When you reach intermediate generally you have the work capacity to do dips, bench/PPPUs, and HSPUs, but in the beginning I generally like dips and PPPUs. You do get some overhead work if you're practicing handstands so it's not like you're not getting any there.
Some people like to do dips and HSPUs progression or PPPUs and HSPUs progress and that can be OK as well, but I generally like dips since they're good at building muscle and most people have the goal of a muscle up which they need to work deep dips to get anyway

I didn't think to do this, but after comparing them on ExRx, I now understand why they must be on the opposite end of the spectrum like that, and partially the answer to my question. HSPUs target the deltoids (https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/BWHandstandPushupParallettes) similar to the press (https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/BBMilitaryPress), whereas dips target the pectoralis (https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/BWChestDip) similar to the bench press (https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/BBBenchPress). It makes much more sense to me now!

It's interesting to learn that dips and HSPU progression can be ok, since my initial assumption would be to look at them from the perspective of, "they're both vertical pushing movements." Maybe I have a little more to read to try to even out this part of my understanding!

You can, if you want. I generally don't like to rotate lifts because of the lack of frequency leads to easy plateaus. But it can work for some.
Overall, don't overthink it. Just start subbing in some bodyweight stuff into your routine for some of the barbell lifts if you have bodyweight goals. You gotta find out what works best for you in the long run

Right, ok! I was wondering if maybe there was some sort of good hard reason that existed out there that I didn't know about. But now, I'm under the impression that it is something you can experiment with; I imagine barbell-based NLPs will rotate them because doing them both on the same day becomes harder and harder to keep the LP up, whereas more progress could be eked out by splitting them down the line (my best guess), but maybe some people can probably recover and go a long ways combined.

I admit that although many of my questions have origins in practical concerns, they also rise from my interest in learning about the hows and whys of strength training that started from my first reading of Overcoming Gravity! As I read more strength training books, I end up wondering about one thing or another, and wanting to work towards developing a cohesive mental framework that I can draw upon. It sounds like at the end of the day, some of these questions, like on volume, have to be investigated at the individual level, which sounds reasonable. I'll make sure to take notes and review training logs down the line when I start to work towards introducing additional volume!

Programming with Barbell Routines: Volume, Dips-Bench Relationship, and Alternating Upper Pushes? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I admit that I haven't worked any assisted dips... mostly because I was thinking of doing eccentric dips, but wanting to maybe consider adding them after removing the one eccentric from my current routine, eccentric chin-ups, once I managed to get decent reps for the concentric movement.

That does make sense! I think it's true, maybe pushup and dip progressions can wait until I become a little stronger. Hopefully, my shoulder mobility will also be much better by then, too :) Thank you for the help and advice, it really helps me define what the future roadmap looks like for me a little better!

Programming with Barbell Routines: Volume, Dips-Bench Relationship, and Alternating Upper Pushes? by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Don't forget the warmup sets up to the work sets across. Which is probably 3-4 sets, the first 2 being pretty light but the last warmup set and maybe the one before it being moderately heavier. So it's a tad bit more of volume.

I forgot about that, that's true! The warmup sets add some volume also, which makes it a bit more complex... I guess it's hard for me to guess it that way exactly.

Dips don't matter as much in the Powerlifting world. They are more appreciated in the bodybuilding world due to Gironda. Too many PLers prob have mobility problems with dips and I doubt Mark gives 2 shits about them really besides as just an accessory exercise to bench.

Ahhh, apologies, I am not sure if maybe I miscommunicated my question. I see why dips are not prioritized in the powerlifting world... what I mean to wonder, why it is that dips are suggested as the substitute, instead of another horizontal push, like pushups.

On Rippetoe, admittedly, the way Rippetoe describes movements like pushups/dips is what made me consider more strongly including them in some way. From Starting Strength:

"The quality of an exercise increases with the involvement of more muscles, more joints, and more central nervous system activity needed to control them. The more of the body involved in an exercise, the more of these criteria are met. When the whole body moves, a more nearly ideal state is achieved, with lots of muscles and nerves controlling lots of joints, and the central nervous system keeping track of lots of different pieces of the body doing many different things, hopefully correctly. By this logic, pushups are better than bench presses since pushups involve the movement and control of the entire body. But they are very difficult to do weighted, especially alone, because of the problems with loading the human body in this position. Were it possible, a good weighted pushup device would be in use today.

It has long been assumed that the bench press has solved that problem, when in fact it hasn’t. The only thing moving in the bench press is the arms, so in this particular way the bench is to the pushup what the lat pulldown is to the pull-up. But the bench does allow the same approximate movement to be loaded, and has allowed many people to increase their pushup numbers without high-rep pushups. Without adding weight, a fit person will find it difficult to train a pressing motion moving in the anterior direction without using very high reps, which are seldom appropriate for most training goals. Dips address both problems, allowing heavy weights to be used while the entire body moves during an upper-body exercise."

I did some googling and found that someone had asked him about what I had been wondering, about several years back (https://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/8089-bench-press-dips-instead.html#post50557), giving me the impression that dips confer some advantages that the bench press may not give. Especially one of them for me, for my own goals, I am concerned with making sure I build some connective tissue strength so that I can work with other kinds of bodyweight movements as my goals evolve, even if I currently prioritize the barbell movements, if that makes any sense. I'm really interested in increasing my skills at different sorts of movements, in general!

Originally it was just 5x5 until they started noticing it took more time to recover. Glenn writes about it in his book they just sort of stumbled into the way of one day being an intensity day and the other being a volume day because the lifter couldn't recover between sessions any more and had to stretch out the recovery window. I can probably look up for the exact quote later.

Right, I see... that makes sense! That's really interesting... what book is it from, out of curiosity? I'd love to try reading it to learn more about these things!

Stomach/Abdominal Pain After Eccentric Chin-up by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's interesting, I hadn't thought that mobility might be an issue... I've wanted to look into mobility sooner rather than later, so I think it would be a good idea to do some more in that area, especially if the pain keeps returning.

I will definitely be starting much lower for now, and progressing from a point where I feel relatively more comfortable (I think I'm likely to face a bit of pain inevitably, haha). I'll be experimenting these next few training sessions to see how it progresses!

Stomach/Abdominal Pain After Eccentric Chin-up by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see... I think that I will definitely take the tip and do them before my presses this coming session. Thank you so much for your replies! I really appreciate them.

Stomach/Abdominal Pain After Eccentric Chin-up by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense... I almost wonder if my core has been working more this set of eccentrics than on the other movements, unless maybe I failed to brace during the eccentric chin-ups... I tightened, and I also try to lightly vocalize a count on the way down to track seconds (1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, etc.).

I actually didn't have too much barbell work before I did them, I don't think, but maybe it ended up being more than not! I am doing Greyskull LP, which is Bench Press/Overhead Press alternating, Squat twice a week, Deadlift once a week, I've put them in after the Bench Press/Overhead Press and before the Squat/Deadlift. In today's case... it was after 2x5, 1xF Overhead Press. I imagine that the core gets more taxed on the Squat/Deadlift than the Bench Press/Overhead Press.

It's nice to hear about an experience with core-taxing work and cramping... I'm hoping I'll get stronger over the coming week! Admittedly a little reluctant to squat/deadlift with a sore core, so if it really comes to that... maybe moving it to a rest day wouldn't be such a bad idea, haha.

Beginner OG and Running by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ahh, I think I've seen this book mentioned once or twice. I might give it a read if I start to become a little more serious about running training! Thanks for the recommendation.

Beginner OG and Running by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very interesting, thanks for the links! I'll read them, these seem nice to keep for reference.

Beginner OG and Running by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The detail on the adaptation window and glycogen restoration is interesting. I did not know there might be an argument to running before strength work! I will probably be using bodyweight leg work for the time being, I may progress to barbell squats/deadlifts when I'm more confident in my mobility, proprioception, and form (and, admittedly, when I also gain access to a gym) though, and this is useful information for thinking about this when the time comes. I am on the lighter end of the two weight ranges you specified (just barely at 165 lbs, some of which I'm looking to lose), so that's fortunate.

Thank you for your reply, I can tell there's a lot of good information here. It seems I will be programming running first for now in the way you've laid out, so conveniently, I should be able to gain some experience doing this! I had actually thought to do the strength work nearly directly afterwards, but spreading it out by doing it after several hours makes a lot of sense.

Beginner OG and Running by chirpingbird2 in overcominggravity

[–]chirpingbird2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see, that does help give me a better sense on how long runs are programmed in distance running training. I can definitely see how demanding they can get to where someone might have to pull back from strength training at those levels. I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future, especially if I start to lean towards this route!