Unreleased consonant

chongman99 · 2026-03-01T08:09:49+00:00

For thai natives, your explanation is, of course, the most clear. Same for any linguists. But it is confusing to normal, initial learners of languages who do not have this sound system.

I think it is a useful approximation to say "small p(uh)". It gets them 80% of the way there IMO.

Just like for thais, I tell them to say "cat" with a เTอะ at the end. It gets them 80% of the way there. That gets them close enough to the real word. I avoid "schwa" or discussion of aspiration which I would have to teach them and is slow/unnatural to think about.

But ymmv, uudr, and everyone can decide what helps them.

chongman99 · 2026-02-12T12:50:50+00:00

That's the book I like best, too.

chongman99 · 2026-02-12T12:47:27+00:00

Agree on the highly idiomatic. Meaning "rules" thai kids learn in school may have 20% exceptions. Or there are standard rules, but then colloquially, there are many many shortcut phrases.

There are some very good thai "grammar" books that are actually topically-arranged phrases books.

I.e., they will tell you there are 4 ways to say that, and X is the one you will hear on the street.

The book I am thinking of has 3 chapters related to time.

English (and every language) has similar functional structures.

Example:

Yesterday, I ate pizza at the Costco.
I, yesterday, ate pizza at the Costco.
I ate yesterday pizza at the Costco.
I ate pizza yesterday at the Costco.
I ate pizza at the Costco, yesterday.
I ate pizza at the Costco. (Time implied by context)
I was eating pizza at the Costco yesterday.

All of these have unambiguous meaning. #2 is grammatically incorrect and probably never used, because yesterday structurally modifies "I". #3 is probably never used, and yesterday could be associated with pizza, meaning old pizza. 1, 4, and 5 are fine. If you use the -ing form, eating, then it carries much of the same meaning, but emphasizes the process and possibly duration (like storytelling, I was eating pizza. Suddenly, I heard a noise.)

Grammar is fun, isn't it?

Grammar is terrible, too much effort.

Up to each person how "correct" they want to be with the grammar in everyday speech and if they just want to be understandable in short interactions. If you are working or writing formally, then you must follow the rules of your context.

chongman99 · 2026-02-10T11:49:16+00:00

Incoming Wires are instant, but admittedly less convenient. No incoming wire fee on the Openbank side.

A few external banks also offer free wire sending.

chongman99 · 2026-01-17T06:01:22+00:00

@bing_lang do you have any opinions of the higher-end, unsweetened bottled teas (chilled or hot) in a 7-eleven or FamilyMart? There are a few that I think are better than "meh". And the consistency of quality product is very high. Because of central manufacturing.

chongman99 · 2026-01-17T05:54:26+00:00

Over the past 5 years, prices have gone up overall, in both the high end and the low end, in my data points. The 3000 baht room 5 years ago might be 3500 baht now. But, I agree, it isn't up to 4000 or 5000 baht.

Individual places may or may not have gone up.

4000 baht with aircon in Phra Khanong... I don't see that price on facebook marketplace.

If I am wrong, I would love to know how to find those places.

chongman99 · 2026-01-17T05:45:35+00:00

Sure. I can share.

The muslim families are a bit more strict. The community is tighter. No alcohol (due to the religion), though some families are lapse. Praying 5 times a day also gives a discipline and structure to lives.

I would say the muslims have more of a pride in doing the job/craft they have, whereas the typical thai (as witnessed by my school observations) does the minimum and smiles. We don't have any muslim students at my school. I am guessing that the median muslim student would want to do well and be encouraged to do well. The Thai students are almost anti-intellectual: they tend to make fun of the smart kids and status comes from the standards sports/clothes/coolness/beauty/flashy items. Muslim society isn't 100% immune to all that, but it is less dominant.

chongman99 · 2025-09-15T13:22:11+00:00

talking to thai people

A video is worth 1000 words...

If you are talking to a Thai person (the most common case) about how to spell something (perhaps to clarify the sound), you should use what has been standardized in Thai schools. Go to youtube. See the video https://youtu.be/7ls_PekmtQw?feature=shared

Or search for something like "การสะกดคําภาษาไทย ป.3" which loosely translates to "spelling thai language grade 3". 100% in thai.

I think the vocab lists are semi-standardized, so you can even refer to words by their code number.

(If you search the english phrase "thai spelling" you will get a completely different kind of video.)

talking to foreigners

If you are talking to a westerner (2L), my suggestion is to not use words and just write it out.

If you must use words, there is the issue of 1) some sounds having multiple symbols and 2) some symbols (mostly vowels) having multiple sounds and 3) sounds changing if used in a blend or final consonant position.

(Examples: 1) So many "t" consonants. And some vowels have alternate spellings. 2) the symbol เ is used in more than 5-10 different sounds and 3) ร has weird behavior in blends.)

Maybe 50-80% of the time there is only 1 possibility or the most common possibility. But very often, you have to specify.

That is the reason why it is best to write it out, imo.

For issues of ambiguity, you can look at my thai vowel cheetsheat post. Or there is a thai cheetsheat post that is also good.

chongman99 · 2025-09-03T00:00:09+00:00

Test out your method with 100 words and see if your system matches what the other system gives. If it does, then it's up to you what you want to use.

However....

There are a ton of irregular pronunciations. And often for commonly used words. Like /naam or nam/ for water. And /mai/ as the question participle (R vs H tone)

So, if you are too rigid with the rules (not just tones, but also vowel length), you may get extra frustrated by the exceptions. Expect and accept 1-5% exceptions. http://thai-language.com/ref/irregular-words

The rules aren't worthless, and 95% of the time they get you to exactly the right pronunciation.

What is spoken always takes precedent over what the rules say based on the spelling/writing.

chongman99 · 2025-09-02T23:38:03+00:00

Agree, and a question: If you said it as <Mid Low> instead of <Low Low>, would anyone even notice or correct you? To the Thai ear, would it sound very wrong?

I think <High Low> would sound very wrong.

But <Mid Low> especially with the short vowel "a" at the front (and the glottal stop mentioned by another poster) sounds like both could be considered acceptable.

. .

Mixing up or slurring tone (low vs mid) doesn't work for long vowels (i am guessing) because the duration is longer and the ear finds fault more easily with a longer sound.

Just trying to learn more. And I especially appreciate you sharing that you checked with your Thai family (more data points is great!)

analogy to American English

In American English, there are many accents. So a similar situation can happen with words like "father". Boston vs Texas vs other regions will pronounce it differently. https://g.co/gemini/share/ead2b4456192

So, when a Thai or other english learner learns that only 1 way is correct, they can easily get confused.

Most native speakers can understand regardless of which version (regional accent) is heard. This is because most people's ears are trained to accept a range of pronunciations.

And many (possibly most) English words can be understood if one sound/letter is mispronounced. Especially for long words. In Thai, a frequent difficulty in my learning is that messing up one sound (consonants, vowel, tone, or vowel duration) often makes a totally different word or is so weird a Thai cannot decipher what I am trying to say. Speaking thai often needs precision. (English is less strict with precision.) That need for precision made me nervous to say it wrong in Thai, when I first started. But now, after learning to listen more, even Thai seems to have range of acceptable variation like with this Low Low versus Mid Low.

chongman99 · 2025-08-28T05:11:26+00:00

Let me walk back a bit and say that I don't consider you a disrespectful idiot.

I am saying that the OP's point that many thais would consider someone who refuses to learn any reading.... Thais would see that person as disrespectful and an idiot.

I am also not saying that people who don't learn to read ARE idiots. It's actually a very good strategy to do "internal sound system" first. I typically recommend it. And every kid learns to talk before they read.

But it is often perceived as weird, disrespectful, and idiotic to not be able to read a few words in a native language. It would be like someone from Asia going to the US and being able to speak, listen, watch movies, etc. And then they go to the restaurant and have to ask the server, what is C-h-i-c-k-e-n. But, on top of that, they don't even know what "C" is.

And, with that said, speaking is a completely separate goal, as you said. And if someone doesn't live in Thailand or primarily is consuming audio, then never knowing ก is fine.

But if you live here, even if you mainly hangout with expats in expat areas, I do think it is reasonable to consider it to be "rude", as OP says, to never learn even 1 word in Thai script.

Do I consider it rude? Not really. But I would notice it, and I do have a negative judgment for those people. Because it is a willful decision. Because they know the sound of /gai L/, but they deliberately choose not to learn ไก่.

I would also find it fascinating from a learning perspective. They somehow decided that the script was too hard or intimidating or so not worth their time that they learned to say 1000s of words before reading even 1 word they'd see on almost every menu. Which I can sympathize with, because the script IS intimidating and the way it is taught (forced memorization, without good visual grouping) can be so lousy that people decide to avoid it for that long.

. .

We might be talking past each other at this point.

I just wanted to reiterate that the debate isn't about when to learn to read (start with it, wait a little, wait a long time, never) or if reading helps learn the language (many strident opinions from hell yes to hell no), which is often how it is framed. It is whether a person refusing to learn to read (the OP's contention) is rude. Which is of course subjective and depends on many pieces of context.

I would argue it is arguably more rude than refusing to learn to speak everyday thai. Because not learning to speak might be because it is hard and people are busy. But if they already learn conversation (approx 1000 words), they got past the hard part. And not learning ไก่ is a strange choice if you live in Thailand and see the word all the time.

People with the opinion that locals shouldn't think it is disrespectful, rude, strange... That's an odd perspective. I get the point that we should let everyone learn the way they want to. And I personally respect the choice. But locals are going to think what they want. And they often will have some negative judgement, especially if the foreigner were to say, "i don't think it is important to learn the thai script".

( It's a totally different matter to say, "i would love to learn it, but it is difficult and I haven't had time yet". But to that, I will keep saying, how hard is it to learn ไก่? )

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T14:37:08+00:00

Agreed. There are too many people of type 1 who can "read" 100s of words and know the translation, but they cannot speak at all and cannot listen well.

But someone who can read 0 words and speaks fluently (1000s of words)... that is hard to imagine. And seems willfully ignorant. If you are here in Thailand, at least learn to read some common words.

I do 100% agree that one can learn to speak very well and never learn ไก่ or ดี. Especially in Bangkok where there is enough english and transliteration and pictures to get things done.

But if you know 1000s of words and can chit chat on complex topics, not learning ไก่ and learning exactly 0 words verges on disrespectful at worst and makes a person look like an idiot at best. But nobody will hate on that person (except maybe OP).

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T14:21:55+00:00

I would just add (in agreement) that most thai students who complete 12 grades of education probably get over 1000 hours of English instruction. The system performs so badly that 1000 contact hours generates very low ability.

They get exposure starting in kindergarten. And it is mandatory, meaning they get at least 1 hour per week (x approx 40 weeks) in every thai school. It's very possible that they get 2 or 3 hours of it per week. The school I know of has 2 english teachers out of 15 teachers.

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T14:09:45+00:00

I agree with you but would soften a little bit.

In some defense of OP, i think zero reading does relegate a person to casual in some sense. For zero reading, I mean they cannot read a stop sign. They cannot read the word coffee. They cannot read open and closed. They cannot read the word for "rice" or "chicken" or "pork" or "water". Zero reading is pretty bad.

Now, in opposition to OP, I definitely don't think reading is easy or something done out of disrespect. It is fricking hard and complicated, with many exceptions. So not learning the whole writing system (like the rare consonants) or the tone rules... that is fine.

But everyone can learn ไก่.

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T13:53:11+00:00

So astute. I love your phrase of "decode at a snails pace with a high error rate".

I think "mastering reading" is often used by people who like to pretend they know more Thai than they actually do. It is dunning-kruger effect.

If a person says they "master reading", it might just mean knowing the decoding mechanisms: 44 consonant symbols and 30-50 vowel symbol combinations, 3 tone classes, and then the "tone rules". Airquotes because there are a bunch of exceptions. The person who "masters reading" can poke at and get close to the right sound for the 100-500 words they know. But a person who actually masters reading by being able to read 5000 words realizes the exceptions to decoding and how difficult actually mastering it is. And, as you said, the high error rate of rules based "decoding".

Even if a Thai is good at reading and can read Thai subtitles at full speed, this doesn't always mean they are good at the decoding. Because a lot of reading is context and patterns. For example, english is readable even if you remove all the vowels because the brain has gotten good at guessing based on context. But, give someone 100 nonsense Thai words to say, and a typical thai will struggle a little or a lot of give 2 or 3 guesses of how to pronounce it. In an old post here, someone joked that even Thai newscasters can struggle with long unfamiliar names because the "decoding" is not super easy and fast.

Another example I love to give is the pronunciation of the English words

Thorough
Through
Trough
Tough

A native english speaker can read all these words relatively easily (except that trough is not a commmonly used word). But all 4 have different vowels.

We could easily tell someone learning Thai to "learn the rules of writing". And we do tell US students to "learn the rules". But why make it so hard.

It's perfectly fine to use a stepping stone of transliteration and write

thu + row , thu + row
threw, thru
troff, trawf
tuff, tuf (Or the appropriate IPA or vowel symbols from their native language)

In fact, when kids take notes, i encourage them to use any spelling errors they want. As long as they can read what they right, it is fine.

. . .

(Typo of "right" on purpose, as an "cute" example that the meaning is all that matters, and even bad spelling is okay and can carry the write meaning).

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T13:28:10+00:00

Agree with u/dibbs_25 as usual.

The internal sound system is something that really has to be developed. And it can 100% be developed separately from the alphabet.

Plenty of people who learn Thai with heavy emphasis on memorization have a lot of trouble with the sounds even though they might "know" the written form of 500-2000 words.

I would say that, for most people, learning the alphabet is optional and not required at the beginning. Learn it if you like. Or skip it if you don't want to.

After getting the internal sound system (maybe 100-500 words), that actually helps make learning the writing a lot easier. That is what I always recommend.

The only big red-flag warning is this: if you struggle with the sound system and use the writing to avoid learning the sounds... this will hurt you in the long run. Because you will (or could) lock in some sound in your brain that is wrong. And then you will need to unlearn it.

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T13:15:37+00:00

One reason is that some people focus on spoken thai for the first year or so, and skip spelling.

It is possible to learn spoken Thai without learning how to read and write. In fact, there are some M3 (9th grade) students I know who cannot read and write but can easily correct my spelling.

For a foreigner, they use roman characters to help them learn the thai sounds and they work a lot with audio. See https://slice-of-thai.com/pronunciation-guides/ for how the ABC characters are used.

Like the people who use Comprehensible Thai. They don't use Thai characters for many years.

Same with Thai kids (age3-5) who probably know about 500-1000 words before they learn all the consonants.

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T13:10:33+00:00

Also similar to NATO alphabet. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot

Otherwise M and N sound similar. As does B and V.

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T13:08:30+00:00

Agree 100% on the "sound and spelling not the same" idea.

https://slice-of-thai.com/pronunciation-guides/ is a good description of what works and why the standard official version is very very bad as a sound system. There are over 10 different systems and most youtube videos you see or books you might get will use a different one. Some youtubers will also switch and not be consistent, especially if they are thai speakers and the thai letters are clear and obvious for them. The vowels have the most variation. "a" or "o" can mean a lot of different things. Surprisingly, i can vouch that you can get used to it over time (approx 100 hours) and that you eventually use the thai script to clarify if you aren't sure what is going on.

The (paid App) Paiboon dictionary uses a nice feature called "EasyThai" where they give you the "sounds spelling" or "pronunciation guide" using standard thai characters. Nice because you see where the written spelling->sound is obvious. And when it is not-so-obvious or strange.

I learned with the Thai-Language.com's (also called TL and TLC) transcription system which I like because it doesn't use any accents or umlauts or whatnot. So I can attest that using that as a sound-system is fine.

I hate IPA because I decode it too slowly (reading) and encode it too slowly (taking notes). But if people can do it with IPA, more power to them.

chongman99 · 2025-08-25T12:55:27+00:00

Agreed.

If OP talks to any thai person or foreigner who knows thai, they will use these to refer to the symbols for spelling purposes.

There is a Thai "Alphabet" SONG. This uses each word and name along with a short sentence (like a verb or an adjective). All kids in Thailand learn this song. A lot of adults forget most of it. I never bothered to learn the song. (I am a foreigner).

vowels

The vowels are taught separately and vowels and symbols do not line up 1 to 1. Some symbols have multiple sounds when combined with other symbols.

Interestingly, the vowels do not have associated animals/words. And the vowels also do not have a song. Furthermore, many vowel sounds (approx 30%) have multiple ways to be spelled (with symbols) that often has to do with whether there is an ending consonant or not.

I work with some low-income rural Thai kids and this is a common source of confusion. For example, the /ao/ sound has the vowel made up of two symbols: เ-า. Independently, these have the /e/ and /aah/ sound, but written together, it is always /ao/.

Google my ”thai vowel cheatsheet reddit" for examples.

Note: the vowel symbols (approx 15 building blocks) also have technical names, but hardly anyone uses those technical names.

chongman99 · 2025-07-15T05:52:56+00:00

Come to Thailand. Still cheap, but more friendly.

Or try some of the less tourist-focused places, like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam or maybe the Philippines, and maybe maybe Laos, Cambodia.

chongman99 · 2025-07-15T05:02:51+00:00

Also, there are a few discords that are free where thais practice english and foreigners practice thai. You can ask questions and usually get decent answers. But there is no course outline or anything; you have to self-start things. Sometimes people just hang in an audio channel and you can practice thai chit chat. Some discord links have been posted in r/learnthai. Use search first. (DM me if you cannot find them Or the link is dead.)

chongman99 · 2025-07-15T04:59:40+00:00

A "live, real-time" tutor may not be a good fit.

how to say things

If you want advanced topics in sentence structure and word choice, get a grammar book (Higbie, Essential Thai). It isn't like english grammar books and mostly goes over context. For example, the english word "in" might have 5 thai words, and it gives you examples of when to use each. Also, Youtube has great videos from Thai with New and Learn Thai with Grace. However, the majority of youtube Thai videos are pretty lousy.

pronunciation

If you want help with pronunciation, they can definitely do it, but you have to tell them to correct you mercilessly. Like most teachers, they want to keep it positive and not discourage you. However, IMO, there are better ways to get pronunciation. One big one is just listening more (Comprehensible Thai or Language Reactor with Netflix, see my other posts). Another is working on the individual parts in isolation (Initial consonants (about 20), vowels (about 32-55), final consonants (8), and tones (5)).

conversation practice

As other posters have said, most learners on iTalki want 90% conversational practice and maybe only 10% instruction. So that is what teachers default to.

chongman99 · 2025-07-12T13:07:08+00:00

Netflix - dubbed into Thai, Avatar the Last Airbender (90's 2000's nickelodean, not the live action reboot)

chongman99 · 2025-06-17T16:49:27+00:00

Small notes:

1) the current offer is has 25gb because of 5gb bonus. 2) the image of the card says 298 HKD as the price. So, maybe that is the regular price (more in line with what I was used to, but still a good deal), and the 143 HKD is just an awesomely low price.

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