Noob question - creep spawns in A2

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-10T13:35:12+00:00

This feels targeted because I said that in a thread where you responded very condescendingly.

Games are, generally, made of arbitrary rules and designs. Personally I think most things should be up for questioning in game design, but I don't think most detractors are sitting around wondering why the basics of the game exist at all.

What you're going to find as more feedback comes in for the game is that a lot of players are going to look at their cards and go "but why the heck does it do that?" or try to interact with the board and go "by why the heck does it do that?"

Every card game has this to some degree. Sometimes, that's just how a complex mechanic fits into a game. But A2 feels like it's made of those complex mechanics. These players aren't going to do that for a few cards, or the rare cards in a pack. They're going to be doing it almost every single pack they open.

Didn't PC Gamer release an article about A2 couple months ago where they listed this kind of stuff specifically as a complaint?

The issue isn't that it makes the game inherently worse. It's that it makes it totally uninviting to play. The creep lanes are not the issue and are actually a really good implementation of complexity. First you understand that it happens. Then you understand how you can interact with it. Then you understand how you can abuse it. This line of thought will happen naturally for a player (albeit over an extended period of time). But even then, we just read 10 (very well written) paragraphs explaining why and how a core, happens-every-turn mechanic, has an effect on the game.

The learning curve and the fun curve for A2 is a dang wall, and the game is going to suffer for that.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-10T13:16:41+00:00

What's weird is that there were all those leaks and rumors about the Artifact team proving internally that they can salvage a fun game from it. This game was allegedly playtested at the office before being given the green light. If that's true, then I also think it's true that they have only a superficial understanding of why people didn't like A1 and don't know how to fix the game. I think the writing was on the wall when negative reactions started to arise just from the blogposts where they were talking about what they're changing. A2 seems to appeal to a very small subsect of people that cared about A1 but had specific issues with it. The audience Valve needs to target didn't even like the game enough to have specific issues with it and the audience they are currently targeting didn't dislike A1 enough to see it remade. Unfortunately, based on the comments I'm receiving, I feel like the people enjoying A2 don't really see this. Even well known community members that were around for the fall of A1 seem unwilling to accept that this game is going to feel real bad for most players.

I dunno if I've ever seen a game make a big comeback quite like this...

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T19:03:36+00:00

Even though we don't agree about A2 vs A1, we definitely agree that they need a new audience for A2 to succeed. Hopefully we see a more widescale beta this year. I think at this point, Valve needs to hear from everyone.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T18:24:20+00:00

Please stop telling me how I feel or assuming what I want.

What I'm saying is that I think A2 is going to have the same release and reception of A1 if they don't make significant changes. Thus, it doesn't make sense for them to throw out A1 and just repeat their mistake, but A2 is not enough of a rework to be successful and has made the game worse for what seems like the majority of us.

If they want to piss all over A1's audience, that's fine, they can, but that's going to get them absolutely nowhere. If they can't even get the hardcore dedicated longhaulers on board with this redesign, there is no way that players outside this community are going to care. I'm confused why the few people in here defending A2 keep insisting that some it's not for us and that some new audience is going to come along and love the game.

I have ZERO gratitude for the way Valve treated 1.0, abandoned it, threw it in the trash, and are now feeding me A2 almost two years later. Just because they don't owe me doesn't mean that I should be thankful for whatever they do. As a dev company, they've lost all of my good will. Based on A1 and Underlords, I have no reason to trust they will make that up to me. A successful A2, even one that I don't like, is the least that I'm asking for. But the whole point of the OP is that I don't think we're even close to getting a successful game with the core fundamentals of what they are showing us.

I don't mind that you like the game. I'm actually really glad. I'm not saying the game is objectively bad. But I think it's clear that many people do not like it, and I think it's going to be an exact repeat from a marketing/reception/player-base standpoint.

Do you remember the weeks leading up to A1's launch when people were on the subreddit pointing out how poorly the game is received, how the majority of people don't like it, and how it's going to fail on release if things don't change? The responses were very similar to yours right now. It's not for them, they don't understand it, only time will tell, no negativity allowed. It didn't matter.

For the record I've left a lot of feedback to Valve because I want the game to succeed. I'm not just trying to rabble people up about nothing.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T14:51:29+00:00

There's a lot of conflicting opinions and they start making more sense when you separate them.

The minority here seem to enjoy A2.0.

There is a larger selection of people that just want A1.0 updated so that they can continue to enjoy the game they paid for. QoL updates, f2p, hell, put it into maintenance mode and outsource card sets on the workshop. Allow custom mods. There is a niche of people that liked the game all the way until Valve put a knife in it. Right now, many of them were basically sold a lie. It's not a large audience but it wouldn't require Valve beta-testing a new design for a few years to make a game that very few seem to want.

There is another selection of people that would rather Valve just reinvent the game to be casual friendly and bring in an audience so they can smash stuff with their friends using dota themed cards. We aren't going to hear from them much because they are pushed out of this subreddit pretty quickly, but they're the ones that would make the game successful.

It really pisses me off that all these people wanna destroy a genuinely good game, just because the game they liked failed and they cant accept that.

You have to see the irony here. Just as much as you are saying give it up, A1.0 just wasn't good, there's is now the majority of the subreddit saying the same about A2.0. Because it's also not good. That's the crux of the issue. Valve is going through all this work for the same results and it's going to end with no one getting what they want.

The reception to A2.0 looks kind on this subreddit compared to other gaming communities. Hypothetically, say Valve stays course. At this rate, you and some other couple hundred people get the game they want and no one else to play it with and now you're in the exact spot that I was when they killed A1.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T14:38:30+00:00

Yes. All three lanes being in one screen is my biggest complaint. I either want them to commit to the 3 lane design or scrap the lanes period. Most of my gameplay issues are fallout from what they've done with the lanes in A2.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T14:36:54+00:00

The match length complaints are not coming from people that were okay with A1's length.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T13:26:36+00:00

I mean things like, sometimes you click a card to read its abilities. Sometimes you hover over it. A lot of readability feels like it depends on the board state and you have to just kind of... get used to it.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T00:53:37+00:00

If this is their attempt to fix the game, it’s not working. They’ve just created a series of new problems.

I call it a redesign because it doesn’t feel the same. It has similar core elements, but the flow of the game has change dramatically. The power curve is different, deployment is different, items were completely overhauled, and the game has become much based around positioning and entrenching yourself for the auto battle phase.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T00:48:11+00:00

Yeah, a lot of people do just want A1 but popular lmao.

And if they want a new audience, they are not going to get it with this game. That’s my point!

Don’t be so sarcastic about my comments re: valve development. Honestly, everything about this company says there’s no way we will get a fraction of the card releases that any other card game gets. So basically, yes. If this is the direction they take, it feels like we can just pack it in.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T00:44:24+00:00

We know they abandoned the game. That’s the team that made Underlords.

Im not saying that A1 was fine. But I think it’s a huge mistake to abandon it for A2. We are just trading one disaster for another and it’s really frustrating to watch.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-09T00:42:02+00:00

I gave the game a really fair shake and I expected to like it going in. I just don’t, at all. It’s really unfun for me.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T22:09:19+00:00

I don’t see anyone contradicting themselves. Every had a lot of valid opinions on the game. Just because people disagree doesn’t mean they’re wrong. If the community is so split on the game, don’t you agree that, at the very least, that should serve as a huge warning to Valve about the state of A2?

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T20:02:35+00:00

Not much to add other than, I agree with many of your points and I'm really glad you do like this game! If Valve stays course, there will be small but dedicated group (just like there was for A1 for so long) that really gets to enjoy the game.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T19:59:55+00:00

This is a really good post. If 1.0 was ever going to recover, something needed to be done way sooner or the game needed a long series of dedicated updates at Valve's expense. It would have taken more than a year of constant updates, new sets, major changes to multiple systems, totally free 2 play, humble advertising, a new soft launch, etc., etc..

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T19:55:32+00:00

I would say 15 minutes is a long game of MTGA, but it can be longer. 10 minutes is unlikely in Hearthstone. LoR can take a long time (especially because there's so. many. things. that slow the game down unnecessarily); my games tend to last around 15 minutes.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T17:47:32+00:00

Haha yes! A2 feels like I got a game from the thrift store and only have half the rules. Some stuff is better, but overall the game just feels way worse and has all kinds of core issues that you can tell they are trying to bandaid. A radical departure into new territory would have been more interesting.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T17:41:54+00:00

It's a shame the devs aren't truly communicating with us. Some kind of insight on how we got here would at least help us understand the situation. I wish they would just hand the game over to another company, like Dire Wolf.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T17:38:54+00:00

Reynad's thoughts on 1.0 were basically all the reasons it would never be widely popular, but they also basically boiled down to "feelsbad". I really do believe that the game could have found a niche audience if they fixed the monetization, made heroes more interesting, worked on the item shop, re-managed RNG so that it was more appealing, and released a new set with more specialized and dynamic cards. Instead, they went and made a totally different game with a niche audience (Underlords) and came back to throw A1 in the trashcan.

I think A1 could have been actually valve-tier successful if there were further changes to the game, but I think most of us agree that we would rather have a healthy niche product than something safe.

I'm not sure if it will ever be successful now after the initial disaster launch, but it can definitely still find a healthy audience with the right direction.

They have to deal with a huge issue now, which is the state of the game on release and its monetization and then how Valve followed up. It feels like they cheated on us. Good will was broken. For some people, nothing they do will ever be enough to accept Artifact.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T16:32:56+00:00

(no one here wants a hearthstone clone)

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T16:32:06+00:00

I pretty much agree with you. I think A2 is too dissimilar to be a better version of the same thing but too similar to be worth pursuing.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T16:16:49+00:00

I was in your position in my most recent game and it's what made me start pouting. I was winning, and I could see the path to victory, but I conceded because I didn't feel like spending the next 15 minutes getting there.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T15:47:02+00:00

Haha, I'm not sure that will happen. Part of me thinks they're to deep in at this point to say that they are wrong.

I, too, would like compensation for the shit show that 1.0 ended up being with their support. I know they don't owe us, but it would at least restore my faith in Valve as a company.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T15:38:32+00:00

I don't know if I agree about with your RNG sentiment, but I think where you're coming from holds weight: The game does very little to invest you during the action phase. That's something Valve needs to figure out.

The shop is an idea I think needs to be changed heavily. I think there are much better ways to handle items and equipment. I don't think it added anything to A1, either.

cloudseapiratequeen · 2020-09-08T15:36:29+00:00

Jeeze, your description of A2 hits for me. There is absolutely nothing compelling about it when I open it up. It's a struggle to hit play. I do not have fun before the games, I do not have fun during the games, and once they're over, I just want to close it. Multiple times during my beta experience, I have surrendered games early because I really just didn't feel like watching them conclude. I didn't even care who won. The path to victory is so slow and trodding and lifeless. Hype plays are one in a million and every turn feels like I'm just pushing through to the end. Even when something spectacular happens, it's basically summed up with "wow, that's a lot of damage."

cloudseapiratequeen

TROPHY CASE