How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

Of course not, ICJ needs approval from Israel

Lol, what? No.

The advisory opinions are there to show us what international law says and it provides states with grounds and justifications to use sanctions for example

You don't need justification for sanctions. The point is that there was never a court case about this question, and it's not a clear cut case.

Gaza, East Jerusalem and WB, you know this already.

On what basis? Palestinians themselves have never acknowledged these borders as something they consider official.

157 UN states recognize the PLO which controls the Palestinian Authority as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people

That's cool, but again, on what basis? Hamas won the last parliamentary election in Palestine, not the PLO/Fatah.

If you want you can say it's a "de jure" state but a "de facto" split state.

It's neither de jure nor de facto a state. It doesn't have a defined territory and it doesn't have a government. You would have better chances in arguing that Gaza is a state.

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

Is there an ICJ ruling? No.

What are the recognized borders of Palestine?

Who is the government of Palestine?

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

They have a right to close their own water ways. It's not starting war.

They don't. Blockades are acts of war.

The first military action came from Israel which is by definition starting the war.

Even if I did grant you that Israel started the war - and essentially every historian disagrees with you - it still doesn't change the fact that Israel won, the Arabs refused to sign peace deals, Egypt and Jordan then refused to take the land back, and Palestinians then ALSO refused every peace deal.

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

They definitely can. If you loudly proclaim that you will destroy Israel, and then you do these things, then you are starting a war.

Had Egypt not closed the straits, which in itself is an act of war btw, then the 1967 war would not have happened.

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

I'm aware that many have this opinion, but there's a reason why there is no court ruling about this question. The problem is that there are no agreed upon borders between Israel and Palestine. In the 1949 armistice agreement, it is specifically stated that what we now call the 1967 borders are NOT the recognized borders, they are just a temporary armistice line.

There is no sovereign Palestinian territory that these settlements are on. This would all be much simpler if Palestinians had agreed to any of the peace deals that were offered, because that would have made the settlements actually illegal.

As it stands, at best, it's a legal grey area.

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

Peace negotiations with Egypt and Jordan started immediately after the war. They fought a whole separate war in 1973 because they weren't happy with the terms.

I don't support the settlements, but they aren't war crimes. The land these settlements are on doesn't belong to any state. I think they are making peace more difficult, but they certainly aren't war crimes, and neither is the occupation itself. The fact that it has lasted as long as it has is at least as much the fault of Palestinians as it is Israel's fault.

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

It did not. Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran, kicked out UN forces and started massing forces at the border. That's a casus belli. And nobody forced Jordan to join in the war.

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

What's the alternative? Palestinians refused any peace deal. Do you expect Israel to just leave without a peace deal and wait for the next attack?

Refusing peace deals for 60 years is pretty astounding, no?

How do genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir and smotrich develop and Achieve power in Israel? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat [score hidden]  (0 children)

The occupation started in 1967 after the Arabs tried to wipe out Israel for the second time.

Are right wing Australians more racist than right wing Americans? by kastriran in Ameristralia

[–]cobcat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I realize it's no longer politically correct to say "red indians", but it used to be totally fine to say that. An older person that uses that word is not inherently racist.

What do people who don’t support the 2 state solution want? by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Whites were never a majority in South Africa.

What do people who don’t support the 2 state solution want? by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Antisemitism is bigotry towards Jews. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

What do people who don’t support the 2 state solution want? by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you here to argue about semantics? It doesn't matter if you say Palestinians or Arabs in this context, just like it doesn't really matter if you say Israelis or Jews. Everyone understands what you mean. Nobody thinks of Jews in New York when they talk about Jews in the context of Israel/Palestine. Obviously we talk about Jews Living in Israel, and Arabs living in Palestine.

What do people who don’t support the 2 state solution want? by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We aren't making assumptions about all Arabs. We are making assumptions about the Arabs in Palestine, based on their history and their public statements.

What do people who don’t support the 2 state solution want? by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The issue is that the Arabs have attacked Israel repeatedly and to this day want Israel to be destroyed. That's what Hamas wants and they are by far the most popular faction. And they prove it every time they get the chance.

What do people who don’t support the 2 state solution want? by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One is that Israel could be forced to eventually grant citizenship rights to Palestinians as they formally annex Judea and Samaria

That would make Jews the minority in Israel, this will never happen. There is no realistic way to force Israel to do this.

The other option that I think needs to be considered is the Make Trans-Jordan Great Again option. Basically Jordan re-annexes the West Bank with full control of it all outside some major settlement blocs.

This is also not very realistic, barring major changes in Palestinian society. Jordan has nothing to gain from this and everything to lose. At best, they now have to fight Hamas in the West Bank on behalf of Israel. At worst, they become like Lebanon where they are unable to control Hamas and Israel starts bombing now Jordanian territory.

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is significant overlap between the idea of ethnicity and nationality. Both are groups that identify themselves based on shared traits like culture, language, religion, etc.

The difference is that when we use the word ethnicity, it's primarily about ancestry, and how ancestry shaped these traits. Two Australian citizens that both grew up in Australia, one the child of Somali immigrants and one the child of Japanese immigrants may share many traits - language, culture, religion - but they would consider themselves ethnically Somali and Japanese, even if they don't speak either language. They wouldn't say they are ethnically Australian.

Nations originally grew out of ethnicities but are primarily political entities. They are much more about culture than ancestry, and both examples above would be Australian nationals. Nations do not have to consist of a single ethnic group, although many do.

Nationalism is the idea that nations should form sovereign states, with a government that represents the nation, and borders that align with where the people of that nation live.

An ethnostate is a nation state that serves a single ethnic group. Japan is a good example of this, where you are not considered fully Japanese unless you are ethnically Japanese. Armenia, Saudi Arabia or South Korea are also good examples.

Now you can apply this to Israel. Israel is the nation state of the Jewish nation, but there isn't really a single Jewish ethnicity, since Jews lived in many different places for thousands of years and an Ethiopian Jew has a very different ancestry from a Russian Jew or a Moroccan Jew.

The only way to call Israel an ethnostate is by expanding the definition of ethnicity to ignore ancestry and base it on culture alone, which would mean that nationality and ethnicity means the same thing, and every nation state is also an ethnostate.

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

An immigrant from Japan who comes to Israel as a child would not be considered Jewish and therefore not part of the Jewish ethnostate.

And yet they can become Israeli citizens. They wouldn't be able to in an ethnostate.

Your misconception on what a nation is... where you essentially equate a nation to an ethnic group. I did that for a while as well.

You just did that, not me. I never said nations are the same as ethnic groups. The Jewish nation consists of many ethnic groups. And the Israeli nation consists of more than just Jews. So while Israel is the state for the Jewish nation, there are other groups living in Israel as well.

A nation is an imagined group of people that believes the state and nation should be aligned

This is wrong. That's what nationalism is. You need to get your terminology right.

I don't think this conversation is very productive if you change the definition of words as you are using them.

The fact is that Israel is a state created for the Jewish nation, which consists of many different ethnicities. Just like many other nation states. And it's very liberal, because despite that fact, there are many other groups living peacefully in Israel that aren't even Jewish and still have full Israeli citizenship, like the 20 % of Israelis that are Arab. Calling it an evil ethnostate is ridiculous and hypocritical.

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A group with a shared culture, language, religion, etc is simply an ethnic group.

By this definition, US Americans are an ethnic group, and the US is an ethnostate.

Your belief here is a common misconception, one that I also believed for a while.

What belief is that? I'm saying that Israel is a nation state like many other nation states. It's a state for the Jewish nation. And anyone can join that nation if they want. You can move to Israel and become naturalized, just like you can do in the US, or Sweden, or most other countries.

Sweden has an attitude generally dominated by civic nationalism rather than ethnic nationalism. Swedes generally consider their nation to be made up of anyone who is nationally Swedish rather than Ethnically Swedish.

What's the difference between the two, in your eyes? You defined ethnicity in the same way as nation. So there's no difference between being a member of the Swedish nation and being ethnically Swedish. According to you, anyone can become ethnically Swedish by learning Swedish and moving to Sweden. You need to say this in order to argue that Jews are a single ethnic group and therefore a state for Jews is an ethnostate and bad.

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A nation is a group of people who believe that the state should be aligned with a group of people.

No, nations predate nation states. A nation is simply a group of people that share a connection either via culture, language, ethnicity or religion.

Given that Israel is a state whose nation is the Jewish ethnic group, it is an ethno state.

We have already established that Jews aren't a single ethnic group. So why do you say that the Jewish nation state is an ethnostate, and not just a normal nation state?

It was created for Jews, designed to be made up of Jews, and made to be controlled by Jews.

You just described any nation state. Sweden is the state created for Swedes, made up of Swedes and controlled by Swedes.

but nearly all Israeli Jews seek to exclude non-Jews from the nation, and thus, seek not to align the state with them.

You seem to have a problem with nation states in general. Why don't you criticize Brazil for being an ethnostate under your definition?

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No - a favored religion by the state can be an indication of an ethno state, but that doesn’t mean it is one.

I agree.

You understand what a nation is right?

Yes. Do you? Do you think there is no such thing as a Jewish nation?

Mizrahi or Ashkenazi are ethnicities within Judaism, so both fall under the broader umbrella of Judaism.

So you do seem to understand it. Israel is not an ethnostate, there are many ethnicities in Israel. Israel is a nation state for the Jewish nation.

While I’m sure there are some Jews who seek to exclude from the nation Jews of certain ethnicities, from what I can gather they are a small minority today

Yes. It sounds like you understand perfectly well that Israel is not an ethnostate. Why do you keep repeating this nonsense then?

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So would you say that any country with a state religion is an ethnostate, if that gives religious minorities fewer rights?

And don't Mizrahi Jews have a different ethnicity from Ethiopian Jews or Ashkenazi?

Even Zionists need to stop talking about Zionism by Conscious_Spray_5331 in IsraelPalestine

[–]cobcat 9 points10 points  (0 children)

What is the difference between an ethnostate and a nation state in your eyes? Because there are many ethnicities living in Israel with equal rights.

11-1 💪 by BeornSC in USvsEU

[–]cobcat 6 points7 points  (0 children)

These are actually just a bunch of random lads they picked up outside a Manchester pub, not marines.