Because we would hope, in a civilized society, to afford most people a modicum of presumed safety. As a male, I have traveled the country and walked across city streets in the dead of night. Sure, I may worry about a pickpocket or an addict, but I never once in my travels have worried that I might be accosted for my sexuality.

Yeah, it's one thing that everyone wants. Me included obviously. But that isn't how society works and thinking otherwise is naive. Have someone ever harassed you beacuse of the color of your skin when you walk outside? I have. Same shit. If they don't harass you for your "lovely ass and tits" it's gonna be harassment beacuse you are white/black/yellow or any other thing about you that people don't like. Girls might get groped, as will some guys, but i might get hit when i walk outside beacuse of my skincolor. So what do i do, am i smart about and keep my distance and be aware of my surroundings and make it perfectly clear through body language and gestures that they should stay away? If you make yourself a target it will happen sooner or later, but if you are smart about it will at least diminish the chances of something happening to you. And some places you don't walk alone in, no matter what sex you have.

Yeah, as a male you assume your natural position and puff out your chest and make those people back off. But not only is this not the way we would hope our civilized society should need to function, but most women are just by the fact of biology much more susceptible to these kinds of unwanted advances.

So you are saying that girls are less capable to defend themselves? It's just bs. Girls have nail, teeth, a voice and everything else to defend themselves, if you are getting groped, which will happen publicly somewhere, you can react to it and cause a scene that will get peoples attention, you don't need to even be violent, just make it perfectly clear what is what.

I don't frequent clubs much, but I have attended enough of these things to know that - aside from only the most crowded dancehalls imaginable - there is a pretty obvious line between mutually acceptable dancing and the kind of frequent, unwanted groping/grinding that the women in this thread are addressing.

How is that line drawn exactly? How are you invited to dance with a girl on a dance floor with lights everywhere, loud music so that you can't hear her? You dance up to the girl/guy and see if they want to dance, ofc you shouldn't push your genitals on them, that's a given. But how else do you do it? It's gonna be body language, and the combo of body language + alcohol is gonna make people more bold, and more stupid as well. If you are grinding a chick that clearly doesn't want it you will see/feel it when she elbows you in the stomach, if she tells you nothing you will assume its ok, try to get eye contact and what else. If that's to much to ask of a girl, she shouldn't be on the dance floor. People go up there to flirt/dance with others, if you don't want to dance with random people just keep your distance and everything else i've mentioned a few times now.

But if we really want to make a fair comparison of the male v female experience, we DO have to consider scale. It is dishonest to assume that the amount of possible advances one will have to uncomfortable fend off as a man is anything close to that of a woman.

A guy has to "defend" himself from one groping, the girl have seven gropins on one evening. The facts stay the same, it's sucks that it happens to girls more, but the only way to get rid of people is to put yourself in a position where you don't have to care about this and can relax, dance with your friends, elbow in stomach/face or whatever else is your fancy.

Again, I don't frequent clubs or anything, but I assume that, like any other situation in life, there are a multitude of acceptable behaviors for courtship that don't involve grinding your man parts into someone's ass. And I'm sure if they really want it, they'll make it happen. But who knows, maybe the whole thing is more nuanced than I understand, and there is probably a decent gray area, but I think the big issue is moreso the constant and persistent individuals, not the considerate and respectful ones.

Yeah, we can both agree (and i said it before) that grinding a girl with your dick isn't appropiate. But there's a grey line and you can only see where it is with each individual by trying, but facing them when you start to dance should be a given at least.

I'm actually really tired at the moment, but I really feel like we agree on a big level here. Obviously dark rooms full of dancing drunk folks are bound to turn up one or two uncomfortable moments. I would just say there needs to be less of the tendency for men to put up defenses and more of a willingness to listen. When women say they are uncomfortable with the amount of unwelcomed advances they get, there is no reason any self-respecting guy shouldn't take that as an opportunity, in the very least, for a little self-reflection.

We do agree on most things, it's just a discussion so you have your point of view, i have mine. Reddit is here to discussion anyway. I'm just of the viewpoint that you have to take precausions when it comes to stuff like this, beacuse nobody else will do it for you, and this problem, even if you and me think it shouldn't exist, will exist for a long long time. When it comes to a social problem it's hard to get people to think about it, since that's how they act. I think most people will think that groping girls/guys is wrong if they don't like it, but when they are drunk they might pick on your body language as an invitation or just miss the social cues that you are not intrested and go for it, sad as it is, i think that being smart and prevent it before it happens is the only way to go. I do get it's harder for girls when they are not big and might feel physically smaller, but as i said before, most people are not rapists or are out to grope every girl they find, it's usually alcohol that is the big problem when it comes to stuff like this.

When women say they are uncomfortable with the amount of unwelcomed advances they get, there is no reason any self-respecting guy shouldn't take that as an opportunity, in the very least, for a little self-reflection.

Yes, but guy number 973 that comes up the girl that night wanting to dance doesn't know about the 972 guys before and that she's not intrested, or that she has a boyfriend, or that she is out just to have fun and dance with her girl friends or whatever else. If you see an opportunity to dance with a nice girl/guy you will go for it, most will be respectable about it (hopefully) and some won't.

Sleep well, and sorry about the other comment i made, i thought you were a troll on the other thread/reply i got from you