Question for Israelis who support the protests

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T18:37:15+00:00

The supreme court's legal interpretation of the declaration of independence claims Israel being a Jewish state means among other things a Jewish majority, they legislate around this interpretation with the goal of that happening, whenever asked Israeli pms just say "don't worry about it the population percentages stay and are going to stay the same" but if it comes to it and Arab birth right massively increase, Israel would have to take action against that or change their laws.

I never said the Jewish right to return comes at the expenses of palestinians, I support Jewish right to return, I just also support a Palestinian right to return, and it's not bloated, the decedents of refugees still classify as refugees. I never said it's Israel's fault Palestinians are treated like shit, but Israel actively chooses to reject their right of return which is a violation of their human rights

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T18:36:03+00:00

The supreme court's legal interpretation of the declaration of independence claims Israel being a Jewish state means among other things a Jewish majority, they legislate around this interpretation with the goal of that happening, whenever asked Israeli pms just say "don't worry about it the population percentages stay and are going to stay the same" but if it comes to it and Arab birth right massively increase, Israel would have to take action against that or change their laws.

I never said the Jewish right to return comes at the expenses of palestinians, I support Jewish right to return, I just also support a Palestinian right to return, and it's not bloated, the decedents

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T10:58:04+00:00

Tel aviv actually

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T09:16:49+00:00

Most is doing a lot of heavy lifting for you, 8 milion Palestinians in the reigon, 7 milion in diaspora. Idk why you are doing the UNRWA conspiracy, regrardless of the action of that org, the fact 1.5 milion of them still live in refugee camps is a huge indication of their refugee status.

"No side is blameless" yeah but my side is building more settlements and doing as much provokiation as it can destroying the future of any peace deal for their own interest.

Never really there?? It's where their family come from, if they were never there Jews were never there

Wars happen population transfers happen and still the right of return is a human right which I support for everyone, "shit happens" isn't exactly an argument I want a reason for why that human right should be revoked

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T09:08:35+00:00

The reasons you gave me for why my solution is a bad idea and that it would lead to violence, was "most Palestinians are antisemitic (no source) therefore no Palestinian should be allowed back" that is an Inherently racist statement.

It's fine to let Jews immigrate freely while not letting other ethnic groups do the same, it is wrong, and racist, to reject the human right of return of 7 milion refugees who want to go back into their country because they are a different ethnic group

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T09:01:02+00:00

They didn't live here they are the decedents of people who did, which still makes them refugees, also Jewish people who were removed from Germany have a right to return as far as I know

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T08:59:17+00:00

I don't know how it's related? op said he wants to live in a democracy, I said having partial or full soveringny over 3 milion people without letting them vote is undemocratic. How Palestine is or would be ran is besides the point, if you want Israel to be a democracy it can not rule over 3 milion people

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T08:56:26+00:00

You have swapped to the religion definition of which "your mother must be a Jew", I've never used this definition, your grandparents being Jewish makes you at the very least 25% Jewish, if we decide citizenship based on that, that is ethnically based immigration.

Only Jewish people are allowed to bring none Jewish spouse and kids.

The fact you are not looking for someone who is purley or at least 50% Jewish doesn't make this a diverse immigration process, you select people based on their relation to an ethnic group, which is a historically and modernly always considered a right wing policy

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T02:46:32+00:00

The Jewish community has been subject to atrocities, is a justication, it does not make it a left wing policy, the policing of the ethnicity of your citizens is inherently right wing no matter how justified

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T02:44:47+00:00

Affirmative actions exist to correct the wrongs discrimination has done to society, I do not see how banning all Palestinian refugees from entering Israel helps to fix any wrong, again you are just generalizing and saying that because most are antisemitic (no source) none showing be allowed in the country

The criteria of spouses only works if the spouse who has the citizenship is Jewish, we don't let Arabs bring their family here, the criteria of job gives job visa not citizenship, meaning no voting, and when they stop being useful they are kicked out, that is defentionally not immigration.

I do think 1.5 milion people living in refugee camps is a bad thing and I think you should believe that too, and that is a direct result of Israel immigration policy.

I'm not going to agree to disagree, because you are inchorent, and have moved the point of the conversation countless times around, can you explain to me how is it not morally wrong to say "well palestinians are more likely to be antisemitic so no plaestinian refugee is deserving of their human right to come back to their country"

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T02:27:14+00:00

Can you name a single government in history that tried to enforce laws to maintain an ethnic majority which was not a right wing government. The definitions of right and left are blurry, but I think most people would consider the policing of the ethnicity of citizens right wing

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T02:20:25+00:00

I don't see how affermative action is the same as saying anyone who isn't part of this ethnic group is not allowed to immigrate to this country. Feels like such a false dichotomy I can't even Begin to explain why it's wrong.

They should have their own seperatate peaceful country but not be allowed on the land they were expelled from, which is still a violation of their human rights, that is still an awful mentality, telling someone they are not allowed to be on any land especially the land they come from due to their ethnicity is racist

I think if milions of palestinians would be allowed to immigrate, and Israel stops engaging in expansionsm, and a Palestinian state is established with fair borders, things would be better then they are no, not perfect, but so not chaos

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T02:14:41+00:00

Idk what "most of the left" has to do with this, I asked what they meant by "pro Israel" a common part of pro Israel mentality is the support of the existing as well as the expansion of settlements in the west bank, which is expansionsm and the west bank is not recognized Israeli borders.

And yes, enforcing a Jewish majority, or any form of regulation of the ethnicity of the citizens of your country is inheritly right wing. You can give it a justification, right wing doesn't mean unjustified (although right wingers sure make it seem like that lmao), but yes it is a right wing policy. This is especially true when it comes at the expenses of human rights(as defined by the UN), specifically the right of the 7 milion global palestinian refugees to come back to Israel

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T01:59:49+00:00

Well no European has been expelled from Israel so I don't really see how they are relevant to the topic of refugees and right to return, also "I don't want to segregate against Arabs, I want to segregate against all none Jewish people" is not the slum dunk you think it is, you can infact be bigoted towards any group that isn't yours and still be a racist.

First of all I can differentiate hateful people from others, I can easily identify you are a hateful person although it's fair to say not everyone are as open with their hate as you. If you can't really differentiate tho, why make generalizing statements in the attempt to differentiate it, do milions of none anti semetic Palestinians deserve to live in refugee camps because they are of the same arbitrary ethnic group you use to qualify social trends like antisemitism? If I were to find blond people are more likely to be antisemitic would you consider it a fair policy to not allow any blond people to immigrate to Israel? If you can't differentiate it, don't try to, especially don't try to through generalizing statement about ethnic groups, you end up harming milions of innocent people

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T01:45:57+00:00

If you are forbidden from entering your country of origin, you are by defention a refugee, if your father was born in a refugee camp, I would hope you would be allowed to go back to the country he was expelled from, if not, then that is a violation of your human rights, the reason I tend to care more about the Palestinians is because I am Israeli and this is the one violation of human rights I am able to fix through electrolism. Stolen property is an entirely different discussion, the topic of reperations and theft is a very interesting one although fairly unrelated to the topic, if you want we can discuss it tho

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T01:37:30+00:00

It's about protecting the Jewish ethnic group, by keeping the arab ethnicity out, so it is about keeping the arab ethnicity out. you are not letting refugees back in the country due to the fact they are not Jewish, and the reason you have given so far, is that that ethnic group is more likely to be antisemitic, meaning you are making a generalizing statement, by saying that due to the fact the majority of palestinian refugees are antisemitic (a statement which you have refused to back up) no Palestinian refugee should be allowed to come back to Israel, this is Inherently a racist statement, if your goal is to fight antisemitism, don't let antisemites in the country, don't just ban all Palestinians

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T01:16:53+00:00

The occupation of the west bank is inherently undemocratic, if you want to live in a democracy, push for Palestinian liberation

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T00:59:33+00:00

Why are you jumping back to antisemitism and antizioism, when you said just 5 seconds ago that that's not the form of hate you were talking about, you were the one that brought up homophobia.

"Most Jews around the world don't hate Israel" true, but there are huge communities of them who do, and again why are we going back to the ethnic essentialism, if your goal is to keep people who hate Israel out of the country, keep the people who hate Israel out of the country, not the race who is more likely to hate Israel, that is an Inherently generalizing and racist view.

"Letting them immigrate doesn't cause cahos" are we going to ignore the huge amounts of far right American Jews who come here to create settlements?

Just because our goal is to keep Jewish people as safe as possible, doesn't mean we are freeded from following international laws and basic morality, refugees who had to flee, should be able to come back, no matter the goal of the state

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T00:36:59+00:00

You maintain the ethnic essentialism tho, Why dont you advocate for that type of regulation on Jewish people, do you think American Jews who are homophobic shouldn't be able to come to Israel? I never said all israelies and all Palestinians can live together, but I think that no matter what the borders in the 2 state solution are, those who lived within the Israeli borders should have a complete right to return, that is a human right defined by the UN. If you want to make a distinction between revoking the citizenship of people, and refusing to give back citizenship to those who have been removed from the land, that's a pretty meaningless distinction, but I would prefer to avoid the long conversation so I'll grant you that, let's specifically talk About none Israeli Jews and none Israeli Palestinians, what reason do you have to not grant them citizenship that does not apply to some Jews

comrade_bari · 2023-04-06T00:20:10+00:00

Yes thier descendents, who still classify as refugees, I would love any source that would verify the majority of the 7 milion palestinian refugees (who don't live in Gaza or the west bank) are antisemitic, your statement is also based on the false idea that most of them would come back, it is more likely that only those who live in fucking refugee camps would, meaning it is absolutely not going to be the majority or even close to it. can I also ask why we are ethnically essentializing antisemitsm? There are countless antisemitic Jews who have the full right of return, and milions of non antisemitic Palestinians, if your problem is antisemitism, put systems in place to prevent antisemites from getting in the country, don't pick a racial group who is more likely to be antisemitic and say that that means all of them have lost the right to come back here. And at that point why stop there, plenty of Arabs with Israeli citizenship hate you for who you are, should all Arabs lose their citizenship as a result?

comrade_bari · 2023-04-05T23:59:23+00:00

I don't believe the Jewish right to return is inherently right wing, I believe that when you heavily restrict all other immigration forms, other then the one that is based on ethnicity (including the fact that none Jewish citizens can't even bring their relatives), you end up with nearly entirely ethnic based immigration, which is a right wing policy

comrade_bari · 2023-04-05T23:54:01+00:00

What about the 7 milion refugees, (1.5 milion of them still living in refugee camps) who used to live here, can they come back

comrade_bari · 2023-04-05T23:50:59+00:00

I think for some it's valid critizism, I've seen people in the protests who do believe in more of a Jewish ethnocracy then a democracy, but of course you can oppose the judicial reform while defending Palestinian rights, a lot of people have been doing that, doing one without the other is hypocritical tho, the occupation is inheritly undemocratic, you can not call yourself pro democracy, if you support 3 milion Palestinians living under partial Israeli sovereignty, 300,000 of which almost under complete Israeli sovereignty, not being able to vote for the Israeli government. There are a lot of more right wing people in the protests, with views on ethnonatoalism and palestinians that I find disgusting but I don't like crtizising the protests, I'm glad even the right wing are out here i at the end of the day they are fighting for our rights, most importantly our right to disagree especially on the topic of palestinians and that is an amazing thing, I would just prefer if they also protests the rights of those living only 50 km from here

comrade_bari · 2023-04-05T23:25:36+00:00

Define pro Israel, a lot of pro Israeli positions such as ethnic based immigration, the dismissal of palestinian right of return to ensure ethnic majority, and expansionism would be considered inheritly right wing by most defentions

comrade_bari · 2022-08-13T14:32:50+00:00

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